sandandfoam
Veteran Member
Are there things that non-Muslims can learn from Sufism?
If so what are they?
If so what are they?
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Can outsiders learn from Sufism?
- Thread starter sandandfoam
- Start date
Gharib
I want Khilafah back
A-ManESL
Well-Known Member
The underlying theme of Sufism is that an individual can partially merge himself with God during his life on earth. The way is to first destroy the difference or the duality that exists between God and him by self destruction of the self or the ego. This is known as fanaa. Besides various Sufi litanies and prayers (which are different for different Sufi orders), one should make it a part of life to remain humble, considerate and indulge only in acts which help one in his quest to control his desires.
After fanaa is achieved, the individual is resurrected in the mould of God (this is called baqaa). This is the state where he has achieved closeness to God. (In a certain sense he has achieved God now.) He should now try to keep increasing this closeness throughout his lifetime.
Sufi practices are usually defined within the tenets of Islam, (although some orders include singing and dancing in the love of God, something some Muslim theologians frown on.) Hence the practices of sufism are best suited for Muslims only. However the underlying message and aim of the quest for the love of God is true for all humanity.
In my opinion if you are a non-Muslim and want to take some positive thing from Sufism the most important ideas are love for fellow human beings (which reflects your love of God) and living your life in such a way where all your actions are anti-hedonistic. This automatically starts you on the path of fanaa.
There are some Muslim schools of thought who oppose Sufism because they feel it obliterates the difference between God and man and bypasses the common method of Salvation. Also there are non islamic versions of Sufism too (Universal Sufism).
What can I do, Submitters to God? I do not know myself.
I am neither Christian nor Jew, neither Zoroastrian nor Muslim,
I am not from east or west, not from land or sea,
not from the shafts of nature nor from the spheres of the firmament,
not of the earth, not of water, not of air, not of fire.
I am not from the highest heaven, not from this world,
not from existence, not from being.
I am not from India, not from China, not from Bulgar, not from Saqsin,
not from the realm of the two Iraqs, not from the land of Khurasan
I am not from the world, not from beyond,
not from heaven and not from hell.
I am not from Adam, not from Eve, not from paradise and not from Ridwan.
My place is placeless, my trace is traceless,
no body, no soul, I am from the soul of souls.
I have chased out duality, lived the two worlds as one.
One I seek, one I know, one I see, one I call.
He is the first, he is the last, he is the outer, he is the inner.
Beyond "He" and "He is" I know no other.
I am drunk from the cup of love, the two worlds have escaped me.
I have no concern but carouse and rapture.
If one day in my life I spend a moment without you
from that hour and that time I would repent my life.
If one day I am given a moment in solitude with you
I will trample the two worlds underfoot and dance forever.
O Sun of Tabriz, I am so tipsy here in this world,
I have no tale to tell but tipsiness and rapture.
---Jalaladdin Rumi (A Sufi saint of the 13th century)
After fanaa is achieved, the individual is resurrected in the mould of God (this is called baqaa). This is the state where he has achieved closeness to God. (In a certain sense he has achieved God now.) He should now try to keep increasing this closeness throughout his lifetime.
Sufi practices are usually defined within the tenets of Islam, (although some orders include singing and dancing in the love of God, something some Muslim theologians frown on.) Hence the practices of sufism are best suited for Muslims only. However the underlying message and aim of the quest for the love of God is true for all humanity.
In my opinion if you are a non-Muslim and want to take some positive thing from Sufism the most important ideas are love for fellow human beings (which reflects your love of God) and living your life in such a way where all your actions are anti-hedonistic. This automatically starts you on the path of fanaa.
There are some Muslim schools of thought who oppose Sufism because they feel it obliterates the difference between God and man and bypasses the common method of Salvation. Also there are non islamic versions of Sufism too (Universal Sufism).
What can I do, Submitters to God? I do not know myself.
I am neither Christian nor Jew, neither Zoroastrian nor Muslim,
I am not from east or west, not from land or sea,
not from the shafts of nature nor from the spheres of the firmament,
not of the earth, not of water, not of air, not of fire.
I am not from the highest heaven, not from this world,
not from existence, not from being.
I am not from India, not from China, not from Bulgar, not from Saqsin,
not from the realm of the two Iraqs, not from the land of Khurasan
I am not from the world, not from beyond,
not from heaven and not from hell.
I am not from Adam, not from Eve, not from paradise and not from Ridwan.
My place is placeless, my trace is traceless,
no body, no soul, I am from the soul of souls.
I have chased out duality, lived the two worlds as one.
One I seek, one I know, one I see, one I call.
He is the first, he is the last, he is the outer, he is the inner.
Beyond "He" and "He is" I know no other.
I am drunk from the cup of love, the two worlds have escaped me.
I have no concern but carouse and rapture.
If one day in my life I spend a moment without you
from that hour and that time I would repent my life.
If one day I am given a moment in solitude with you
I will trample the two worlds underfoot and dance forever.
O Sun of Tabriz, I am so tipsy here in this world,
I have no tale to tell but tipsiness and rapture.
---Jalaladdin Rumi (A Sufi saint of the 13th century)
maro
muslimah
That's deviation from " al Tawheed " to " the oness of existance dogma "....which renders some sufi sects entirely unislamic
also ,dancing and singing are " innovations "..and not true islamic rituals
AbuKhalid
Active Member
Well said. I couldn't agree more.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
So, as a non-Muslim, I have learned that innovation is a good thing. Very true.
.lava
Veteran Member
Buttons*
Glass half Panda'd
.lava
Veteran Member
Lol, Sufi's don't really count if you become a "true" Muslim, right?
there is no difference between a Sufi and Muslim. but in certain areas Sufis lost there connection to knowledge of Qur'an. i guess they mixed their religion with others. but they still call themselves Sufi.
Tasavvuf and Sufism are practices of what's written in Qur'an. Mevlana is just an exmaple. but Mevlna did not dance or did not sing. today there are many musical instrumets in Museum o Mevlana but they are all put there in last decades by musiians who love him. Mevlana when he was asked about music answered as "music would not play while opening the door of heaven.." so opening to door heaven aka earning heaven does not happen with music and dance or any other entertainment. it requires devotion to God, not worldly stuff.
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Buttons*
Glass half Panda'd
Wouldn't some Sufi's claim that most Muslims have lost the connection to the Qur'an? I really don't mean to disrespect, but isn't that sort of a relative interpretation you have? To you, of course they have lost touch with the Qur'an, but to them, they must feel the opposite, otherwise they wouldn't BE Sufi. Does that make sense?
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.lava
Veteran Member
your information is wrong. you are not a Muslims or not a Sufi so maybe it is best for you to talk about your own path, not ours.
there is no such a thing as dynamic meditation. Sufis perform salaats before God seven times a day. Sufis go fasting to be close to God. Rumi was a devoted Muslim who were in love with ALLAH! so please stop telling weird lies about our family, our practices and our path that leads Allah.
.
AbuKhalid
Active Member
Could you explain why 7? I have never hear this before and my understanding of Sufism is very limited.
.lava
Veteran Member
of course it makes sense. i was really surprise to see men and women sufis dancing together...etc. in Turkey there are Alevi people who do similar thing. sure they are doing what they want. but also there is a circle of Islam and if you leave that circle then that means you do not care for commands of Allah. in our teachings Sufism and Tasavvuf are considered as "Islam in practice". yet what we do would not contradict with verses of Qur'an. practices of religions change in time but i rather call them tradition, not religion. does it make sense? btw i do not dare to say they lost touch with God. i said they lost connection with knowledge of Qur'an. so, please do not claim i said such a thing. if you go worship a piece of rock, i would have to respect you. because i would accept that rock as your only connection to God. i would not approve, i would find it sad but as long as you put that meaning into a rock then that rock is your only connection.
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Buttons*
Glass half Panda'd
Yes, thank you for clearing that up
I'm so sorry about that. I didn't mean to imply something that you didn't say. I read it wrong and changed words in my head. >.< I'll go see if I can correct it now..lava said:
.lava
Veteran Member
5 times salaat as a 'must do' and other two salaats as sunnah of Mohammad (PBUH). we perform one sunnah salaat after midnight and one more sunnah salaat between morning and midday: after morning salaat like two hours later. they are called Duha salaat and Teheccud salaat. we know that Sahaba performed those salaats. Mohammad (PBUH) even performed more salaats. i do not think an ordinary man can do that though. but we can do what Sahaba did.
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.lava
Veteran Member
it is OK Buttons* i believe you, it's OK. but there is a difference between losing touch with knowledge of Qur'an and losing touch with God. i just wanted to make myself clear about that. i am sorry if i was harsh or rude. i guess i was a bit rude, forgive me.
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Buttons*
Glass half Panda'd
zenzero
Its only a Label
Friend .lava,
This response clearly shows that allah is seperate and god is separate and not the same which all non-muslims worship.
Also brings out how much anger you have [should it be called part of muslim behaviour?which is different than sufis for whom universal love is supreme.
Agree should not have generalised it with islam but surely had meant the dancing whirling dervish and singing is a dynamic meditation not appreciated by many muslims.
Besides what friend A-ManESL has explained about Sufism is appropriate and appreciable and did mention that sufism is a mystical tradition of islam and not a sect.
Love & rgds
This response clearly shows that allah is seperate and god is separate and not the same which all non-muslims worship.
Also brings out how much anger you have [should it be called part of muslim behaviour?which is different than sufis for whom universal love is supreme.
Agree should not have generalised it with islam but surely had meant the dancing whirling dervish and singing is a dynamic meditation not appreciated by many muslims.
Besides what friend A-ManESL has explained about Sufism is appropriate and appreciable and did mention that sufism is a mystical tradition of islam and not a sect.
Love & rgds
Gharib
I want Khilafah back
Lol, Sufi's don't really count if you become a "true" Muslim, right?
they are true muslims, as far as i know since thats what they say. i cannot deny the right of anyone who claims to be a muslim, i cannot see into their heart nor into their feelings because i am not god. so if they say they are, then no problem with me. i don't have a problem with anyone calling themself a muslim.
the reason why i have said that is because of this;
All this is clearly understood in the beautiful story where our Blessed Messenger, peace and blessings be upon him, got upset with Usamah ibn Zaid, the beloved, the son of the beloved (he was named this because the Prophet, peace be upon him, loved him greatly). Usamah was out on the battle field fighting the enemy. During the heat of the battle one of the enemies slipped and fell, so Usamah lifted his sword to strike him. Immediately the enemy shouted out 'La ilaha illa Allah, Muhammad Rasul-lullah,' yet, Usamah struck and killed the man anyway. The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, heard of this and began to greatly blame and censure Usamah saying, "Did you kill him after he said it (the Shahadah)!?" Usamah replied, "Oh Messenger of Allah, he only said it out of fear of the sword." "Did you look into his heart?! Oh Usamah," replied the Prophet, peace and blessing be upon him.
This same kafir may have killed many Muslims on that day, and he was in the act of fighting against the Muslims, yet, as soon as he said the Shahadah, even if it was in hypocrisy, and Usamah didn't refrain himself and killed him, the Prophet, peace and blessing be upon him, became very upset. The Prophet, peace and blessing be upon him, continued to blame Usamah about what he did for the rest of the day, until Usamah said, "I wish that I became a Muslim after this day" (meaning that he wished that the event never even happened and that he could have a fresh start in Islam).
This incident is not mentioned to put blame on Sayyidina Usamah, may Allah be pleased with him. Rather, there is an important principle that we must understand here. The mishaps of the individual companion of the Prophet, peace be upon him, are looked at as a further perfection in the society of the companions. This is so because the goal behind the community of the companions is that we may emulate them, so if no mishaps occurred by individual companions, then we would not know how to deal with a person who falls into error in our time and the times to come. Therefore, the mishap of one of the companions is in reality a perfection on the societal level. All this was so that the realities of what it really means to learn may fully manifest themselves for us.
In this incident, the Prophet, peace and blessing be upon him, made firm in our hearts the understanding that even while fighting, our goal is their guidance. So if the enemy shows the signs of being guided, then the fighting between us and them ceases, even if it was an outward form without any true reality. That is why the meaning of the statement, "Did you kill him after he said it, Oh Usamah?!" is that we should not let our drive to fight blind us from the real cause of fighting, which is their guidance.
i have posted this stuff in another thread.
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