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Can outsiders learn from Sufism?
- Thread starter sandandfoam
- Start date
zenzero
Its only a Label
Friend .lava,
It is your own statements from post no.97 that have asked you to clarify.
For your memory:
If you had been unconscious while writing them; have nothing to say.
As many times as humans we do things unconsciously and because of those moments that *accidents* occur.
If you have stated them conscious;y then surely the readers would like to verify the facts before accepting them as true.
If you wish to change your stance consciously because you do not have a response or something; is also understandable.
Leave it to you BUT kindly do not say:
BECAUSE THEY ARE YOUR STATEMENTS.
Love & rgds
It is your own statements from post no.97 that have asked you to clarify.
For your memory:
If you had been unconscious while writing them; have nothing to say.
As many times as humans we do things unconsciously and because of those moments that *accidents* occur.
If you have stated them conscious;y then surely the readers would like to verify the facts before accepting them as true.
If you wish to change your stance consciously because you do not have a response or something; is also understandable.
Leave it to you BUT kindly do not say:
BECAUSE THEY ARE YOUR STATEMENTS.
Love & rgds
.lava
Veteran Member
nameless and i were talking then we continued talking about it via pms since it has nothing to do with Sufism. we tried to understand each other.
i do not feel like i need to change my statements. i do not mind for what you think of them or of me. what i am & who i am never depends on your thoughts. never was and never will be.
.
.lava
Veteran Member
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
you are speaking like there is one form of meditation....
it is not possible to study meditation from a book?
:sarcastic
Sufism is not Islam?
such ignorance,...
katiafish
consciousness incarnate
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. please have patience and watch this video..
Have Much respect for Sufism, no desire in becoming Muslim..
Have Much respect for Sufism, no desire in becoming Muslim..
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
I think you'll find the largest reason this is said, is because sufi and sufism are actually western terms and have been inventwed by outsiders....
which is one reason why Islam has a problem with "sufism"
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
At the heart of Islam is submission....
that is what Islam IS.....
submission, the rest is commentary...
Submission, be the wind that blows, or be the king trying to hold back the sea.
The wind is the wind, the king is a fool......
Metempsychosis
Reincarnation of 'Anti-religion'
Ignorance can be tackled only by ignorance.
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
Its amaziong how someone armed with google and wikipedia from outside a religion.....
knows more than a practiooner who lives it....
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
uh right....
Jesus said, "If a blind person leads a blind person, both of them will fall into a hole."
--Gospel of Thomas
nameless
The Creator
Its amaziong how someone armed with google and wikipedia from outside a religion.....
knows more than a practiooner who lives it....
from outside a religion? which religion? sufism is not part of islam, so no problem talking about sufism being a non-muslim !!
Why sufism is not part of islam? pls go through Is sufism not part of Islam?
It is not appreciated to make statements after purposefully ignoring some of my posts. My statements on sufism and sufi saints was based on sufism theories and poems of sufi saints and not wikipedia. And no person did explain how those are not supporting monism.
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Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
are you a muslim or a sufi?
I think only they can answer fully....
please see my respons: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1745982-post3.html
Saying Sufism is not a part of Islam is like saying
Kabbalah is not a part of Judaism
Hesychasm is not christian
yet people do indeed say these things
why? Ignorance....
the exoteric is unaware of the esoteric..and denies it..often
...
your statements do support monism...
but lets look at christianity, briefly
we could argue Christianity is Pantheism, God is everything, Jesus is all...ype some commentaros through the ages would agree
Christianity is paganism...yep.. wine drinking, sacrifices, altars
Christianity worships three gods..... yeppers the trinity, the mormons for instance even break this down, so that God become 3 "people"....
...
So what do we conclude...
it depends on our perspective, "we see things as we are not as they are" --k Gibran
yes Monism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia states rumi was a monist...
Sufism is therefore monism...and we can label it, put it in a box and have the answer...
wrong
because Islam and Sufism both embrace the transcendental ineffible nature of God, in an arguably more overt way than christianity or judaism do...
there is no place for this ineffible transcendant nature in monism
- There really is just one concrete particular, viz., the whole universe (the blobject).
- The blobject has enormous spatiotemporal structural complexity, and enormous local variabilityeven though it does not have any genuine parts.
- Numerous statements employing posits of common sense and science are true, even though nothing in the world answers directly to these posits.
- Truth, for such statements, is indirect language-world correspondence. (2000: 249)
You see Islam and Sufism, go beyond this
Ask a Muslim, Allah is beyond description, beyond words, Allah is Allah...
Monism is a concept. Sufism and Islam may fit into "Monism", correct
But that is NOT the whole story, and never will be. That is how the story differs from one who is within a tradition and one who is simply researching it or trying to understand it.
This is how Islam, Sufism, CHristianity, Judaism and Buddhism are all "atheistic"
......................................................
Actually, the ground of everything is within me and it is God, and it's within everybody too.
And there's one ground for everybody, and this ground in the Divine Mercy. . . .
The people of the unveiling, that is to say the Sufis, ask the Mercy of God to subsist in them.
These are the ones who ask in the Name of God and He shows Mercy upon them only by making the Mercy subsist in them.
This is a totally different outlook. It is the outlook whereby the Mercy of God is not arranged on the outside
in events for me-in good and bad events-but it is subsisting in me all the time.
Therefore what happens is that if the Mercy of God is subsisting in me-and that goes to say if I am united with the will of God-
. . . if I am completely united with the will of God in love, it doesn't matter what happens outside,
because everything that is going on outside that makes any sense is grounded in the same ground
in which I am grounded.
The opposition between me and everything else ceases,
and what remains in terms of opposition is purely accidental and it doesn't matter.
And this is . . . a basic perspective in all . . . the highest religions.
You ought to get down to this,
you get down to it in Christianity,
you get down to it in Buddhism,
you get down to it in Hinduism,
and so forth.
It is arriving at a unity in which the superficial differences don't matter.
It doesn't, mean that they're not real, it doesn't mean that they're not there. They still subsist
--Thomas Merton
Now, generally speaking, a modem person is a person who investigates and experiments
and is not satisfied with the spiritual message of theistic religions.
Let me give you the example of a scientist whom I met in the US.
In the beginning of our meetings she told me that she refused to see any common grounds between Buddhism and modern science.
She had a very negative attitude. Then our discussion started and we didn't talk about God or soul.
We talked about particles and emotions.
As we were progressing in the dialogue the American scientist was becoming more and more enthusiastic.
At the end of our discussion she accepted that there could be a common ground between Buddhism and modern science.
Maybe it had to do with the fact that Buddhism does not have the concept of soul and God as in the theistic religions.
That is to say, some modem people who believe in reason want also to rely on faith.
This includes some modern scientists who get some benefit from the Buddhist explanations about the mind or about the emotions.
More and more scientists begin to realize that emotions are very important for our health.
When Buddhism talks about emotions it is not only concerned with salvation and life after death but with having better health,
a happier family and a happier society. Nowadays Westerners show interest in Buddhist explanations of life not only because
they are said by Buddhists but because they are scientific. Of course, I think there are two types of Westerners who
are interested in Buddhism.
The first category is people who are not serious and who follow the fashion.
Today they are interested in Buddhism; tomorrow they are interested in Hinduism and the day after they become Sufis.
The second category concerns people who are more critical and more cautious in the beginning,
but who study more deeply Buddhism and who find some substance in their experience of Buddhism.
These people show a genuine interest in Buddhism. I think the interest comes also from the fact that Buddhism is an open
minded religion because it does not believe in the concept of a central authority.
Even Jainism believes in the concept of Atma (soul) though Jains have no concept of a God as a Creator.
I would just like to add that I think all religions without exception talk about love, compassion and self-discipline.
So you find a lot of similarities among religions.
But since there have been many wars in human history in the name of religion,
some people think that religion and compassion are two different things.
Because of the religious wars in history many people have told me that it is better to have one universal religion
instead of having many different religions. I think such an opinion is due to a lack of knowledge concerning different traditions
of thought and positive values like tolerance and compassion that they have perpetrated.
I have a Muslim friend who believes in Allah and who says that because he believes in God
he loves not only other human beings but also other creatures because God created them all.
The Buddhist concept of love is the same. You find the same concept in Christianity and in Judaism.
What makes problems in the minds of modern people is the memory of religious wars and violence
which happened in the West. But fortunately Buddhism was quite far from the West.
--His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama
Divine postures of a true saint physically, mentally and spiritually are the same. He only gives, blesses and elevates.
He is a Daata (Giver), bestows physically, mentally and spiritually. He only gives and never takes.
He never spreads his hand before a mortal being. He truly gives because He gives himself away.
He truly gives because He is the only one who does not seek any return thereof.
He truly gives because He is to the purpose born.
He truly gives because He gives life eternal to dead souls.
He does not withhold His grace from even the non-deserving.
He gives to all alike.
He is the True Divine Donor.
--Baba Narinder Singh (sikhism)
nameless
The Creator
if these has same relation as sufism with islam then it should be said that kabbalah is not a part of judaism and Heysychasm is not christian.
but for islam creator and creation is different, but sufism creator and creation are one.
monism is not a religion, it is a concept that there exists only one. I introduced monism here to relate creator and creation and not to describe its properties.
When distinguishing two religion we should examine only differences and not similarities.
For islam creation and creator are different but for sufism they both are same - difference.
i would like to know if their religious scriptures says so, like bible and quran, except buddhsim and sufism.
Request: There is already a thread dedicated to describe the relation between sufism and islam - Is sufism not part of Islam?
kindly continue from that thread.
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nameless
The Creator
the main significance of meditation is spiritual progress. For spirituality, meditation without an instructor is almost impossible, but rarely few succeeds without an instructor.
I dont know what form of meditation you are talking about. You have your own version of everything....sufism, islam, meditation etc
they are just your own !!! and let it be like that.i hope you are clear about this now, lol
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nameless
The Creator
like always you have your own version and reasons for everything.
you are making use of freedom of belief to its maximum, lol
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nameless
The Creator
so you have perfect idea about this mantra, OM. Should explain how OM is related to demonic inspiration.
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
the main significance of meditation is spiritual progress. For spirituality, meditation without an instructor is almost impossible, but rarely few succeeds without an instructor.
I dont know what form of meditation you are talking about. You have your own version of everything....sufism, islam, meditation etc
i hope you are clear about this now, lol
since you are so wise....
and discount ALL the books ever published, for centuries...on meditation....
lets see now... if we look to judaism... the earliest extant text, you are discounting 1800 years of writings... and I am sure there are others....although you could argue abraham abulafia..so perhaps just under a 1000 yrs of jewish meditatinal texts...although someone may know better
so now we have thrown ALL that away, because you know better
Tell us, what IS meditation?
unless you are claiming it is "just spiritual progress"
Which of course could be argued that there is no such thing as spiritual progress...but then again you seem to like straight forwared ideas, so we wont get into that
And yes the term Sufism is a western one....its old, but its not originally muslim....
I am 99.9% sure that is what I have read....
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