Businesses Requiring Vaccine Passports

[SomeRandom]

The thing is, potential, risk, maybe, could be, and so forth isn't evidence that there "is" a high risk and thus should make vaccines mandatory. I agree it's a private decision, but I wouldn't say that it is secondary to social responsibility.

I wouldn't compare it to driving over the speed limit. It's a "just in case" scenario. You "will" get pulled over for driving over the speed limit if a cop sees you. But the vaccine is a just in case: You "may/have the potential" to spread the virus "if" you have symptoms of the virus.

I see it can be a social responsibility for someone who is working with people with the virus, loved ones, in a medical facility, and so forth-not an everyday Joe.

I was being safe in my language, for practical reasons.
How about this. Not vaccinating without a shadow of a doubt increases the infection rates of the population and can even undermine vaccinations already out.

 

[SomeRandom]

COVID isn't a plague. That's the difference.

Neither is chicken pox. We still eradicated it only for anti vaxxers to literally allow it to flourish again.
Although depending on which definition you’re using COVID is a plague. It’s a highly infectious disease that has ground the world to a halt. I’d call that a damned plague, just saying

 

[Regiomontanus]

551,863 as of right...now.

COVID-19 Map - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center

Now 552,006...

just sayin'

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I don't find it unethical. Hard, perhaps very hard to enforce, but that's not an ethical question but a question of practicality.

I feel the ethical question is forcing people to take the vaccine in order to use business services. It's not like masks and social distancing where they don't impose on the health of a person. The only time I can see myself being forced to take any treatment is in a life and death situation. Even then, we don't just sign the papers. Enforcing it, though, would be hard. I honestly believe it will backfire. I'd stay home cause its dangerous not because of the virus.

 

[sun rise]

COVID isn't a plague. That's the difference.

Plague is one example of a pandemic.

 

[sun rise]

I feel the ethical question is forcing people to take the vaccine in order to use business services. It's not like masks and social distancing where they don't impose on the health of a person. The only time I can see myself being forced to take any treatment is in a life and death situation. Even then, we don't just sign the papers. Enforcing it, though, would be hard. I honestly believe it will backfire. I'd stay home cause its dangerous not because of the virus.

There's been a great fight between anti-vaxxers who don't want their kids vaccinated and schools mandating vaccination.

This is the adult version of the same thing.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I was being safe in my language, for practical reasons.
How about this. Not vaccinating without a shadow of a doubt increases the infection rates of the population and can even undermine vaccinations already out.

It doesn't increase infection rates, it increases the possibility of infection rates. We don't know. We can only guess majority of the population "could" be asymptomatic so to be safe than sorry they "should" take the vaccine.

Mandating taking the vaccine shouldn't be based on possibilities but facts. I don't know if there is a stat that says majority of people could be asymptomatic. Since it's not a plague, it should be just a personal decision not a social responsibility. Unless someone doesn't take it and they know they are sick, then that's one thing... so be. But thousands of people being forced to take it "just in case" they are sick is pushing it. Sounds like fear more than it does anything else.

I have strong opinions about it, but I try not to get hung up on possibilities. I'd end up in the hospital with anxiety.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Plague is one example of a pandemic.

It's not the black plague. You won't drop dead when you catch it. Taking care of yourself, your immune system, staying in, and keeping in touch with your doctors would help relieve a lot of coronaviruses. It really depends on your state of health. In this case, it sounds like many of the deaths were of seniors. Their immune system is weaker than their younger peers. If it were a plague (a get it and die type of pandemic) it wouldn't matter who caught it.

 

[SomeRandom]

It doesn't increase infection rates, it increases the possibility of infection rates. We don't know. We can only guess majority of the population "could" be asymptomatic so to be safe than sorry they "should" take the vaccine.

Mandating taking the vaccine shouldn't be based on possibilities but facts. I don't know if there is a stat that says majority of people could be asymptomatic. Since it's not a plague, it should be just a personal decision not a social responsibility. Unless someone doesn't take it and they know they are sick, then that's one thing... so be. But thousands of people being forced to take it "just in case" they are sick is pushing it. Sounds like fear more than it does anything else.

I have strong opinions about it, but I try not to get hung up on possibilities. I'd end up in the hospital with anxiety.

Do...do you not know how vaccinations work?
I’m sincerely not being insulting. Perhaps you have some gaps in your knowledge? Which is fine, everyone does.
I have plenty.

We know that infection rates rise when people choose not to vaccinate because we have observed this every single time.

A vaccine is like a giant quilt. The less holes, the more effective overall. Since it works on a societal level, not an individual one, we rely on the most amount of people being vaccinated (who can be, obviously people have allergies and other issues.) That lessens the holes in the quilt. The fewer holes the less chance of mutation and infections occur. This has been studied for a century. More maybe. Like ?????

 

[sun rise]

It's not the black plague. You won't drop dead when you catch it. Taking care of yourself, your immune system, staying in, and keeping in touch with your doctors would help relieve a lot of coronaviruses. It really depends on your state of health. In this case, it sounds like many of the deaths were of seniors. Their immune system is weaker than their younger peers. If it were a plague (a get it and die type of pandemic) it wouldn't matter who caught it.

Over 500,000 people in the US have died from it. That's 'dropping dead' in my book.

Also, people survived the plague.

COVID is not as lethal as the black death was but it's lethal for many too many people.

 

[Kenny]

Battle rages over vaccine passports
Excerpted....
Republicans are up in arms over the possibility that businesses and local governments may require vaccine passports for people to get access to certain activities, buildings or events.

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis (R) has urged his state’s GOP-controlled legislature to pass a law forbidding passes showing proof of coronavirus vaccination, while vowing to take executive action. Congressional Republicans have similarly slammed the passports, framing them as invasive.

The Biden administration has said it will provide guidance on the matter, but signaled the decisions will largely be left up to local governments and business owners.

“We’re going to provide guidance, just as we have through the [Centers for Disease Control and Prevention],” White House press secretary Jen Psaki said Monday. “There’s currently an interagency process that is looking at many of the questions around vaccine verification.”

Supporters of the idea say it will help boost businesses — especially in hard-hit industries like travel and entertainment — as COVID-19 restrictions are scaled back and more Americans receive vaccines.

“The cruise lines, for instance, want to get people back on cruises. Airlines want to get people back traveling. And quite frankly, I want to get back traveling again as well, because I haven't been on an airplane since March and I used to travel all the time,” said Tim Paydos, global vice president of IBM’s government industry business.

“I only want to get on that airplane if I feel reasonably safe that everyone in there is healthy, and that the airline is taking care of me. And so that's what this is really all about,” he added

Paydos said IBM is in talks with “just about every state” and federal agencies about such passes.

Requiring vaccine passports could allow industries that have been closed off for much of the past year to reopen while minimizing the risks of spreading the virus. And proponents say virtual passes would speed up the verification process.

In New York, which last week became the first state to formally launch a virtual pass, the voluntary information is being touted as helping the state boost businesses that faced some of the toughest restrictions during the pandemic.

For example, New York recently expanded the number of permissible wedding guest attendees from 50 to 150 — as long as all attendees have proof of a negative test result or vaccination. Similar requirements have been made as the state allows sports fans back into stadiums and arenas.

Republicans are up in arms over the possibility that businesses and local governments may require vaccine passports for people to get access to certain activities, buildings or events.

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis (R) has urged his state’s GOP-controlled legislature to pass a law forbidding passes showing proof of coronavirus vaccination, while vowing to take executive action. Congressional Republicans have similarly slammed the passports, framing them as invasive.

The Biden administration has said it will provide guidance on the matter, but signaled the decisions will largely be left up to local governments and business owners.

“We’re going to provide guidance, just as we have through the [Centers for Disease Control and Prevention],” White House press secretary Jen Psaki said Monday. “There’s currently an interagency process that is looking at many of the questions around vaccine verification.”

Supporters of the idea say it will help boost businesses — especially in hard-hit industries like travel and entertainment — as COVID-19 restrictions are scaled back and more Americans receive vaccines.

“The cruise lines, for instance, want to get people back on cruises. Airlines want to get people back traveling. And quite frankly, I want to get back traveling again as well, because I haven't been on an airplane since March and I used to travel all the time,” said Tim Paydos, global vice president of IBM’s government industry business.

“I only want to get on that airplane if I feel reasonably safe that everyone in there is healthy, and that the airline is taking care of me. And so that's what this is really all about,” he added.

Paydos said IBM is in talks with “just about every state” and federal agencies about such passes.

Requiring vaccine passports could allow industries that have been closed off for much of the past year to reopen while minimizing the risks of spreading the virus. And proponents say virtual passes would speed up the verification process.

In New York, which last week became the first state to formally launch a virtual pass, the voluntary information is being touted as helping the state boost businesses that faced some of the toughest restrictions during the pandemic.

For example, New York recently expanded the number of permissible wedding guest attendees from 50 to 150 — as long as all attendees have proof of a negative test result or vaccination. Similar requirements have been made as the state allows sports fans back into stadiums and arenas.

New York’s Excelsior Pass, created in partnership with IBM, allows people to show if they have been vaccinated before attending events where proof is required.

Connecticut Gov. Ned Lamont (D) on Monday signaled his state may launch a similar pass in the coming months.

“I think it’s a little premature, only in that not everyone has the vaccine available to them yet. But I like to think within a month or two when broadly available, I think you will see some type of vaccine passport or validation ... probably led by the private sector,” Lamont said at a press briefing.

Some Republican governors, though, are fiercely pushing back on such efforts.

DeSantis vowed on Monday to take executive action this week to ban the passes.

A very interesting concept:

We can’t have voting ID’s because poor people can’t afford it; it is too difficult to make it happen; it targets those who have more melanin.

BUT

We can get vaccine passports for everyone.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There's been a great fight between anti-vaxxers who don't want their kids vaccinated and schools mandating vaccination.

This is the adult version of the same thing.

I can see that. If you mean COVID vaccination for kids, then yeah... if the adult is unsure about it, they wouldn't let their kids get it. All adults are just grown up kids. We still have the same instincts (no one is excluded) but manage them differently depending on many factors and experiences as we age then turn back to kids again.

I don't see anything wrong with adults as long as they don't start storming our US capitol or such nonesense.

 

[SomeRandom]

It's not the black plague. You won't drop dead when you catch it. Taking care of yourself, your immune system, staying in, and keeping in touch with your doctors would help relieve a lot of coronaviruses. It really depends on your state of health. In this case, it sounds like many of the deaths were of seniors. Their immune system is weaker than their younger peers. If it were a plague (a get it and die type of pandemic) it wouldn't matter who caught it.

We don’t vaccinate based on high death rates. I vaccinated for the flu, that wasn’t the Black Death, last I checked. Chicken pox also doesn’t have a high death rate, last I checked. Still had to be vaccinated.
Also the people who have survived have long term health affects. From affecting taste to long term respiratory complications. Survivability is a factor, it’s not the only factor. Why do you think they shut down everything when a cluster forms? It’s not because we’re worried everyone will drop dead. Though that can be an issue for vulnerable citizens. We shut down because we don’t want a highly infectious disease to spread further and get out of control.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Do...do you not know how vaccinations work?
I’m sincerely not being insulting. Perhaps you have some gaps in your knowledge? Which is fine, everyone does.
I have plenty.

I looked it up awhile back but not a medical professional to know the ends and outs. Even so, that doesn't change my point.

We know that infection rates rise when people choose not to vaccinate because we have observed this every single time.

How do you know its based on people not taking the vaccine and not say social distancing or not going to the doctors when they have symptoms?

It could be because they traveled or they could have caught it even if they got a negative test result from the vaccine. We just don't know.

A vaccine is like a giant quilt. The less holes, the more effective overall. Since it works on a societal level, not an individual one, we rely on the most amount of people being vaccinated (who can be, obviously people have allergies and other issues.) That lessens the holes in the quilt. The fewer holes the less chance of mutation and infections occur. This has been studied for a century. More maybe. Like ?????

I can see that. Though, that would mean people would have to conform with the majority rules. Which actually makes them seem unintelligent and can't make decisions on their own. That's one way to look at it. Im sure there are other perspectives not based on social responsibility that's equally valid.

 

[sun rise]

people would have to conform with the majority rules.

I'm against "sovereign citizen" nonsense where people think they can ignore the rules if they don't like them.

 

[Debater Slayer]

If a store owner decides to make taking vaccines mandatory, it takes away a customer's right to go to a store they've been going to for years. Literally forcing a person to either get the vaccine or not would force that costumer to go to another store. While most people will take the vaccine, and that store won't loose money, the ethical issues (mandating vaccines over people's free will) is totally off key.

Your overestimation of your medical expertise--or I should say lack thereof--doesn't mean any privately owned facility is obliged to endanger its responsible clients who have gotten vaccinated to reduce the risk to themselves and others.

Your "free will" not to get vaccinated is there, but so is that of the business. You don't get to force everyone to take extra risk to accommodate your choice.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

We don’t vaccinate based on high death rates. I vaccinated for the flu, that wasn’t the Black Death, last I checked. Chicken pox also doesn’t have a high death rate, last I checked. Still had to be vaccinated.
Also the people who have survived have long term health affects. From affecting taste to long term respiratory complications. Survivability is a factor, it’s not the only factor. Why do you think they shut down everything when a cluster forms? It’s not because we’re worried everyone will drop dead. Though that can be an issue for vulnerable citizens. We shut down because we don’t want a highly infectious disease to spread further and get out of control.

The shutdown itself is actually weird. The virus doesn't disappear just because we're indoors for an X amount of time. If that be the case, we'd do that for the flu and every other virus. Basically, whoever had it probably passed it to their family and when the lockdown let up, it spread more.

Why would we think the virus will just leave just because everyone was indoors. If it worked, cases wouldn't have increased when lockdowns were let up.

I never got the flu vaccine for the same reason. If it's not broke, don't fix it. It's not specific to COVID just I take the meds I need daily and call it a day. I'm only anti-vax in that I won't take it. Whether other people do or not, I see no issue. If it wasn't effective, that would be a different story.

 

[Revoltingest]

Unless said business is not going to allow the Florida Governor in because of no vaccine.....

That could be an interesting confrontation.

 

[SomeRandom]

I looked it up awhile back but not a medical professional to know the ends and outs. Even so, that doesn't change my point.

So, you’re a layman? Like me. Typically I find it better to listen to experts. Like experts tell me that a seat belt helps me survive a crash. That sounds fair.

How do you know its based on people not taking the vaccine and not say social distancing or not going to the doctors when they have symptoms?

First of all, social distancing has only been a thing for a couple years. Thanks to COVID. We haven’t even finished our first roll out of vaccines. What are you talking about?
Secondly we know for a fact that anti vaxxers are the reason for a resurgence in previously eradicated diseases. Because we’ve studied this. Numerous times. Every single solitary time a previously eradicated disease made a comeback, guess what also happened at the exact same time? People not vaccinating. There’s correlation and there’s coincidence. Sure. But when it happens literally every time? Then there just comes a time where you just have to face facts.

It could be because they traveled or they could have caught it even if they got a negative test result from the vaccine. We just don't know.

We’re not even vaccinated yet. What are you talking about? I’m talking about illnesses in general.

I can see that. Though, that would mean people would have to conform with the majority rules. Which actually makes them seem unintelligent and can't make decisions on their own. That's one way to look at it. Im sure there are other perspectives not based on social responsibility that's equally valid.

Oh like observing speed laws? Wearing seat belts? Wearing safety gear?
There’s a whole host of things we do as a whole. More or less. Are you suggesting that health and safety is dumb simply because most people comply?

 

[Revoltingest]

If a business owner, say a grocery store, decides to make it mandatory, and someone in a free-will country has always been going to this store, it is literally forcing that person to either get the vaccine or go to another store. While most people would take the vaccine so the store won't loose money, the ethical issues involved is totally off key.

I don't consider that being forced.
As a business owner, I set my rules.
Those who don't like'm can go elsewhere.
It's always been thus.