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Border Shutdown or Build a Wall?

Discussion in 'Human Affairs, Political Movements and Charities' started by Salvador, Dec 29, 2018.

?
  1. I'd prefer a border wall instead of a border shutdown.

    4 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. I'd prefer a border shutdown instead of a border wall.

    4 vote(s)
    50.0%
  1. Salvador

    Salvador RF's Swedenborgian

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    Trump says 63,000 Americans were killed by illegal immigrants since 9/11. The math doesn't add up

    In meetings about immigration, President Trump has been advised there have been 63,000 Americans killed by illegal immigrants since 9/11/01; this according to an online news report from CNBC.

    I've figured this 63,000 Americans killed by illegal immigrants since 9/11/01 is probably the approximate number of illegal immigrants arrested for homicide since 9/11/01, but probably about half of those illegal aliens arrested for homicide actually get convicted from being legally charged of murder.

    F.Y.I... There are no guns that can kill anybody without somebody pulling the trigger.

    [​IMG]
     
    #81 Salvador, Dec 30, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2018
  2. Lyndon

    Lyndon "Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
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    your mistake is, I have to repeat this because you ignored it, you're comparing arrests for homicide with actual homicides, arrests for homicide are greater than the actual number of homicides, You're FBI statistics are homicides, not arrests, you'e immigrant statistics are arrests, not homicides.
     
  3. Lyndon

    Lyndon "Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
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    from wikepedia, arrests for homicide for hispanics barely higher than for whites

    Homicide[edit]
    According to the US Department of Justice, African Americans accounted for 52.5% of all homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with European Americans 45.3% and "Other" 2.2%. The offending rate for African Americans was almost 8 times higher than European Americans, and the victim rate 6 times higher. Most homicides were intraracial, with 84% of European Americans victims killed by European Americans, and 93% of African Americans victims were killed by African Americans.[49][50][51]

    In 2013, number and percentage of murder arrests by race were:

    Black or African Americans 4,379 = 51.3%
    White Americans (non-Hispanic Americans) 2,861 = 33.5%
    Hispanic Americans 1,096 = 12.8%
    American Indians or Alaska Natives 98 = 1.14%
    Asian Americans 101 = 1.18%[52][53]
    Inversely, the percentage of individuals in each racial demographic arrested for murder in 2013 (with 2016 population estimates) was:

    0.0102% of Black or African American population (4,379/42,975,959)
    0.0023% of American Indian or Alaska Native population (98/4,200,658)
    0.0019% Hispanic American population (1,096/57,516,697)
    0.0014% of White American (3,799/198,077,165)
    0.0010% of Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander population (6/646,255)
    0.0005% of Asian American population (101/18,418,268)[52][54]
    Blacks account for the majority of gun homicide victims/arestees in the US while whites account for the vast majority of non-gun homicide victims/arrestees, of the gun murder victims in the United States between 2007-2016, 57% were black, 40.6% white (including Hispanic), 1.35% asian, 0.98% unknown race and 0.48% native american.

    Non-gun homicides, represented about 30% of total murders in the time period. Blacks were still overrepresented although only by about 2.5x their share of the general population.[55] Of the non-gun murder victims in the United States between 2007-2016, 61.5% were white ( including Hispanic), 32.9% black, 2.29% asian, 1.89% unknown race and 1.43% native american.[56]
     
  4. Watchmen

    Watchmen Well-Known Member
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    Do those statistics mean illegal immigrants who are violent should be allowed to enter and stay in the US (or any other country for that matter)?
     
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  5. Lyndon

    Lyndon "Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
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    yes, it means illegal immigrants who are no more violent than other Americans should be allowed to stay.
     
  6. Salvador

    Salvador RF's Swedenborgian

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    Illegal aliens are more likely to be violent criminals than are American citizens or legal immigrants; of course, illegal immigrants should not be allowed to be trespassing in our nation. If an effective border security barrier works as well at the U.S-Mexico border as the security barrier around the Hungary-Serbia and Hungary-Croatia border works, then this will keep thousands of these violent criminals from trespassing into our nation from Mexico.

    Hungarian border barrier - Wikipedia

    "Using newly released detailed data on all prisoners who entered the Arizona state prison from January 1985 through June 2017, we are able to separate non-U.S. citizens by whether they are illegal or legal residents. Unlike other studies, these data do not rely on self-reporting of criminal backgrounds. Undocumented immigrants are at least 142% more likely to be convicted of a crime than other Arizonans. They also tend to commit more serious crimes and serve 10.5% longer sentences, more likely to be classified as dangerous, and 45% more likely to be gang members than U.S. citizens. Yet, there are several reasons that these numbers are likely to underestimate the share of crime committed by undocumented immigrants. There are dramatic differences between in the criminal histories of convicts who are U.S. citizens and undocumented immigrants.

    Young convicts are especially likely to be undocumented immigrants. While undocumented immigrants from 15 to 35 years of age make up slightly over two percent of the Arizona population, they make up about eight percent of the prison population. Even after adjusting for the fact that young people commit crime at higher rates, young undocumented immigrants commit crime at twice the rate of young U.S. citizens. These undocumented immigrants also tend to commit more serious crimes.

    If undocumented immigrants committed crime nationally as they do in Arizona, in 2016 they would have been responsible for over 1,000 more murders, 5,200 rapes, 8,900 robberies, 25,300 aggravated assaults, and 26,900 burglaries."

    Undocumented Immigrants, U.S. Citizens, and Convicted Criminals in Arizona by John R. Lott :: SSRN
     
    #86 Salvador, Dec 30, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2018
  7. Lyndon

    Lyndon "Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
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    more unsubtantiated drivel!!
     
  8. Watchmen

    Watchmen Well-Known Member
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    Ridiculous. One violent person is a citizen. The other is not. One is supposed to be here. The other is not.
     
  9. Nous

    Nous Well-Known Member
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    Your thread title, poll question and OP presents a false choice between Congress funding an enormously expensive border wall or Trump "sealing off the boder," a false choice that explicitly parrots Trump's idiocy. If it were true that your purpose is not to promote Trump's agenda, then you would not have given us this false choice. Again, Trump does not have the statutory authority to "seal off the border, " as you describe it, a fact it should have taken you about a minute to discover.

    If it were true that your purpose is not to promote Trump's political agenda but only to provide "objective information showing why we need effective border security," you would be able to deduce that proposition from facts. You haven't been able to do so. What do you claim this border security needs to be effective in achieving? Lower homicide rates in the US? You haven't even begun to show that a border wall would plausibly achieve such an effect. The vast majority of homicides are not committed by people who have entered the US by coming across the Southern border outside of a port of entry. The vast majority of unauthorized aliens in the US entered the country with a legal visa.

    Whether you recognize it or not, you are merely parroting Trump's ignorant, bigoted agenda.
     
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  10. Watchmen

    Watchmen Well-Known Member
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    And you are merely parroting the liberal media. Take a look at the video linked below. It answers some of your questions but I doubt you’re sincerely interested.


    Build the Wall
     
  11. Lyndon

    Lyndon "Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
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    Some people just hate Mexicans, and are willing to make up all kinds of lies to justify their hatred. Unfortunate but true.
     
  12. Nous

    Nous Well-Known Member
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    If so, then good for "the liberal media" for presenting documented facts.

    I don't get my information from from videos. If you know of any evidence that anything I said above is erroneous, then provide it.

    The one question I asked in the above post is only answerable by @Salvador
     
  13. Lyndon

    Lyndon "Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
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    Salvador made up his own "facts" with funky math. For instance one government study says roughly 1000 hispanics were arrested for murder in 2017 (only 25% more per capita than for white Americans). Salvadors study says 7000 illegal aliens were arrested for homicide each year. One of these studies is wrong, and they both supposedly come from the government?????
     
  14. Watchmen

    Watchmen Well-Known Member
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    Typical. You refuse to watch a very reasonable video full of facts because you know it will blow your views out of the water.
     
  15. Watchmen

    Watchmen Well-Known Member
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    The leftists here are willing to allow violent illegal immigrants into the US to kill US citizens and legal residents. Let that sink in.
     
  16. Lyndon

    Lyndon "Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
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  17. Nous

    Nous Well-Known Member
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    False. I will repeat:

    I don't get my information from from videos. If you know of any evidence that anything I said above is erroneous, then cite it and substantiate it.

    The one question I asked in the above post is only answerable by @Salvador
     
  18. Kangaroo Feathers

    Kangaroo Feathers Hardline moderate

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    Hey! Let's all cherrypick non representative outlier examplies that confirm our preexisting biases and pretend it's a legitimate argument!
     
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  19. Kangaroo Feathers

    Kangaroo Feathers Hardline moderate

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    Question to all the wannabe wall builders... of all the examples of "violent illegal immigrants" you cañ find, how many entered the US in a way that would have been stopped by a wall? Of that number,how many would have then been able to enter some other way, like entering legally and then staying after their visa expires? Serious question.
     
    #99 Kangaroo Feathers, Jan 1, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2019
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  20. Nous

    Nous Well-Known Member
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    To add another option to your second question: " . . . or could enter through one of the already existing or soon-to-be-built tunnels."
     
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