Border Shutdown or Build a Wall?

[Salvador]

your figures keep changing every time you post

My figures are available at https://www.gao.gov/assets/320/316959.pdf page 27 and Table 1

Anybody here can easily see them. ...

 

[Lyndon]

sorry but page 27 has nothing to do with the figures you posted, try again!!

 

[Lyndon]

Seeing as your figures are nowhere to be found in your gao pdf, I can only conclude that your figures are intended to deceive and not related to anything

 

[sayak83]

If Trump were to seal off the U.S.-Mexico border, he wouldn’t be the first president to do so. Nixon did shut down portions of the border during Operation Intercept in order to keep drugs from entering the U.S. President Reagan briefly shut down the border when a DEA agent went missing. So then, there is historic precedent for Trump to do the same, especially for national security reasons. He doesn’t even need any Congressional approval.

I doubt you would want the border to be closed in such a dramatic fashion; so then, I urge you to please write your Congressional representatives for getting an effective border security barrier approved.

I appeal to the Congressional representatives to challenge this corrupt president's lies, blackmail and bluffs regarding the border and take all necessary actions to impeach him ASAP.

 

[sayak83]

Citation needed please.

Here,
Cato found that in 2015, criminal conviction and arrest rates in Texas for undocumented immigrants were lower than those of native-born Americans for murder, sexual assault and larceny.

Finally, a research paper appearing in the current edition of the U.K. journal Migration Letters shows that youthful undocumented immigrants engage in less crime than do legal immigrants or U.S.-born peers.
Illegal Immigration Does Not Increase Violent Crime, 4 Studies Show

 

[Salvador]

Seeing as your figures are nowhere to be found in your gao pdf, I can only conclude that your figures are intended to deceive and not related to anything

There's a nice screenshot for you to see this report showing there were 25,064 illegal aliens arrested for homicide from 2003-2009! ...

 

[Lyndon]

the big mistake you make is that it is people arrested, not convicted, the FBI stats are the actual number of murders. commonly 5 or 6 people might be arrested for the same murder, and might be innocent

 

[Salvador]

the big mistake you make is that is people arrested, not convicted, the FBI stats are the actual number of murders. commonly 5 or 6 people might be arrested for the same murder, and might be innocent

The crime clearance rate for homicide in the U.S. during 2017 was 61.6 percent. Clearance rate - crime by type in the U.S. 2017 | Statistic

When factoring the crime clearance rate of 61.6 percent with the 25,064 arrests, this results in 9,625 of those arrested who are not cleared of their murder charge. So then if we were to go by 9,625 as the number of guilty illegal alien murderers compared to the overall number of 115,717 homicides. This means illegal aliens would account for about 8.3 percent of homicides. Illegal aliens account for around 3 to 4 percent of the overall population. So, illegal aliens are still considerably more likely, at least twice as likely, to be a murderer than somebody who is not an illegal immigrant.

Also, let us also consider the possibility there are many illegal alien murderer suspects who don't get arrested, cause they run back to ole' Mexico.

Now let's take this conservative estimate that only 38.4 percent of illegal immigrants arrested for murder are actually guilty of murder; that'd equal 9,625 illegal aliens who've murdered somebody in the United States over a 7 year period, which averages out to 1,375 homicides committed in the U.S. yearly by illegal aliens.

If even just a few hundred of these homicides done each year by illegal aliens could've been prevented by an effective border security barrier, then this border security barrier is well worth the cost.

 

[Nous]

If Trump were to seal off the U.S.-Mexico border, he wouldn’t be the first president to do so. Nixon did shut down portions of the border during Operation Intercept in order to keep drugs from entering the U.S.

Was there something you didn't understand about what I said? Nixon did not (a) "seal off the border," much less to legal residents or non-residents residents with legal visas, (b) for political purposes, namely in retaliation for Congress refusing to provide funding for something.

This is what Nixon's Operation Intercept was:

The effort involved increased surveillance of the border from both air and sea, but the major part of the policy was the individual inspection, mandated to last three minutes, of every vehicle crossing into the United States from Mexico.[3] Because of complaints from cross-border travelers, and from Mexican President Diaz Ordaz, the searching of vehicles was reduced after 10 days and completely abandoned after about 20 days.[4]​

Operation Intercept - Wikipedia

This is the safest rule to follow in response to something you've heard your hero Trump say: It's always false due to his gross ignorance, his intention to deceive, or his psychotic inability to distinguish truth from falsehood.

 

[wellwisher]

Neither. I vote for defeating Trump because he's lying about closing the border and already backing down about the stupid, won't work non-solution to a non-serious problem.

Trump will cave in. It only requires a bit of pressure and with a Democratic House, he's not yet experienced what real pressure feels like. He will in just a few days.

There are more Government workers who are Democrats than Republican. The shut down is already causing political pressure for the Democrats, via threats from union leaders, who give most of the union donations to Democrats; 90%.

If the Union leaders decide to have a strike, to gain control of the situation, this will open the door for Trump get rid of the unions, with scabs. President Reagan did this with aircraft controllers. This will hit the Democrats where is hurts; donation wallet. Donation money will need to go to striking union members.

The wall is needed because it is a passive restraint to illegal immigration. Sealing the border with troops is dynamic and more expensive. The latter is also subject to the whims of who is in charge, and can be dissolved easier than a wall, by Executive order. A wall is more permanent and can outlast changes in power in Washington.

Shutting down the border can be an effective tool in terms of concessions with Mexico. We have a huge trade deficit with Mexico that costs more per year, that a one time wall cost. Border sealing will cause business pressure on the government of Mexico. Mexico may choose to compromise and pay for a southern border wall along its central American border. This will take the pressure off the US border. A wall will then be very effective and may be the only way the Democrats can keep union due coming their way.

 

[Curious George]

..."Here are just a few statistics on the human toll of illegal immigration. According to a 2011 government report, the arrests attached to the criminal alien population included an estimated 25,000 people for homicide, 42,000 for robbery, nearly 70,000 for sex offenses, and nearly 15,000 for kidnapping. In Texas alone, within the last seven years, more than a quarter million criminal aliens have been arrested and charged with over 600,000 criminal offenses. You don’t hear that."

**Edited**

"Let’s take homicide as an example. The GAO estimates “criminal aliens” were arrested, convicted and incarcerated for 25,064 homicides. If non-citizens committed them over seven years, the annual rate would be 14.2 per 100,000 non-citizens. If illegal aliens committed them over four years, the annual rate would be 58.0 per 100,000 illegal aliens. Either way you compute, those are high rates.

By comparison, the FBI reports the murder rates for the entire U.S. from 2003 through 2009 varied from 5.0 to 5.8 per 100,000 inhabitants for an average rate of 5.5. To be clear, 5.5 is much lower than either 14.2 or 58.0.

Or look at the total number of homicides in those years. Per the FBI, there were 67,642 murders in the U.S. from 2005 through 2008, and 115,717 from 2003 through 2009. Per the GAO, criminal aliens committed 25,064 of them. That means they committed 22% to 37% of all murders in the U.S., while being only 3.52% to 8.25% of the population."

So then, this means illegal aliens are around 5 times more likely to be a murderer than somebody who is not an illegal immigrant.

Read more: Illegal Aliens Murder at a Much Higher Rate Than US Citizens Do
Follow us: @AmericanThinker on Twitter | AmericanThinker on Facebook

Numbers are off.

 

[LuisDantas]

Many violent Illegal immigrants from Mexico with violent criminal records have seriously harmed or killed many American citizens,. Our nation needs an effective border security barrier in order to reduce these incidents of violent illegal immigrants trespassing across the U.S.-Mexico border and then harming or killing American citizens. If there's no effective border security barrier to keep out violent criminals from Mexico, then the POTUS has no choice but to close down the Mexico-U.S. border with military force.

So then, would you prefer an effective border security barrier or a border shut down with military force?
Of course, allowing the entry of violent criminals into our nation from Mexico by failing to seal off our nation's southern border is not an option.

Maybe you can open another thread at some time to discuss situations that actually happen? You know, in the real world, as opposed to politically-charged manipulative fantasies?

This article can be a good starting point.

https://www.vox.com/2018/12/28/18158873/wall-shutdown-trump-dreamers-deal

 

[Salvador]

Numbers are off.

There's a nice screenshot for you on post #46 to see this GAO report showing there were 25,064 illegal aliens arrested for homicide from 2003-2009! ...

 

[Curious George]

There's a nice screenshot for you on post #46 to see this GAO report showing there were 25,064 illegal aliens arrested for homicide from 2003-2009! ...

Now you are directly misquoting your PDF.

 

[stvdv]

Many violent Illegal immigrants from Mexico with violent criminal records have seriously harmed or killed many American citizens,. Our nation needs an effective border security barrier in order to reduce these incidents of violent illegal immigrants trespassing across the U.S.-Mexico border and then harming or killing American citizens. If there's no effective border security barrier to keep out violent criminals from Mexico, then the POTUS has no choice but to close down the Mexico-U.S. border with military force.

So then, would you prefer an effective border security barrier or a border shut down with military force?
Of course, allowing the entry of violent criminals into our nation from Mexico by failing to seal off our nation's southern border is not an option.

Not sure if the info from below youtube is true, otherwise US needs 2 walls. Lucky for US the other borders are oceans. But still 2 very big walls.

 

[Salvador]

Maybe you can open another thread at some time to discuss situations that actually happen? You know, in the real world, as opposed to politically-charged manipulative fantasies?

This article can be a good starting point.

https://www.vox.com/2018/12/28/18158873/wall-shutdown-trump-dreamers-deal

**Edit made for correction of mathematical calculation errors**

Out of 27,632 arrests made by the U.S. Border and Custom Patrol Agents, they have arrested 14 illegal aliens who have been convicted of murder within the last 3 years.

Criminal Alien Statistics - FY2018 | U.S. Customs and Border Protection

Of those arrested illegal aliens, one out of 1,974 have been convicted within the last 3 years of committing
murder. ( 0.050 percent ) The homicide rate in the United States over the most recently reported 3 year period is 14.6 persons murdered per 100,000 persons of the overall general population. (0.015 percent) Assuming there is one person killed for each murderer means there'd be around one person out of 6,850 who've murdered somebody over a 3 year time period.

Table 1

0.050 percent of illegal aliens , who've been arrested in the last 3 years by U.S Border and Custom Patrol Agents, are convicted murderers. 0.015 percent of the overall U.S. population have murdered somebody within the last few years.

These statistics show that an illegal alien, who has been arrested by a border patrol agent, is more than three times likely to be a murderer than somebody who is not an illegal alien.

These numbers clearly make the case that illegal aliens, who trespass in our nation, are at least 3 times more likely to be a murderer than somebody who is a legal U.S. immigrant or American citizen.

 

[Salvador]

Now you are directly misquoting your PDF.

I've got more government documented facts and statistics that show illegal aliens are more likely to be a murderer than a non-illegal alien.

**Edit done for correction of mathematical calculation errors**

Out of 27,632 arrests made by the U.S. Border and Custom Patrol Agents, they have arrested 14 illegal aliens who have been convicted of murder within the last 3 years.

Criminal Alien Statistics - FY2018 | U.S. Customs and Border Protection

Of those arrested illegal aliens, one out of 1,974 have been convicted within the last 3 years of committing
murder. ( 0.050 percent ) The homicide rate in the United States over the most recently reported 3 year period is 14.6 persons murdered per 100,000 persons of the overall general population. (0.015 percent) Assuming there is one person killed for each murderer means there'd be around one person out of 6,850 who've murdered somebody over a 3 year time period.

Table 1

0.050 percent of illegal aliens , who've been arrested in the last 3 years by U.S Border and Custom Patrol Agents, are convicted murderers. 0.015 percent of the overall U.S. population have murdered somebody within the last few years.

These statistics show that an illegal alien, who has been arrested by a border patrol agent, is more than three times likely to be a murderer than somebody who is not an illegal alien.

These numbers clearly indicate that illegal aliens, who trespass in our nation, are at least 3 times more likely to be a murderer than somebody who is a legal U.S. immigrant or American citizen.

 

[Curious George]

Out of 27,632 arrests made by the U.S. Border and Custom Patrol Agents, they have arrested 15 illegal aliens who have been convicted of murder within the last 3 years.

Criminal Alien Statistics - FY2018 | U.S. Customs and Border Protection

Of those arrested illegal aliens, one out of 1,842 have been convicted within the last 3 years of committing
murder. ( 0,54 percent ) The homicide rate in the United States over the most recently reported 3 year period is 14.6 persons murdered per 100,000 persons of the overall general population. (0.15 percent) Assuming there is one person killed for each murderer means there'd be around one person out of 6,850 who've murdered somebody over a 3 year time period.

Table 1

0.54 percent of illegal aliens , who've been arrested in the last 3 years by U.S Border and Custom Patrol Agents, are convicted murderers. 0.15 percent of the overall U.S. population have murdered somebody within the last few years.

These statistics show that an illegal alien, who has been arrested by a border patrol agent, is more than three times likely to be a murderer than somebody who is not an illegal alien.

These numbers clearly make the case that illegal aliens, who trespass in our nation, are at least 3 times more likely to be a murderer than somebody who is a legal U.S. immigrant or American citizen.

Your math needs work

 

[Salvador]

Your math needs work

Thanks, my edits have corrected some mathematical errors; but the corrected numbers still do show an illegal immigrant, who is captured trespassing the border by a border patrol agent, is at least 3 times more likely to be a convicted murderer than an American citizen or legal immigrant. ...

 

[columbus]

If I had to choose between these two options, I would choose Trump closes the border.

Because it is easier to undo his political grandstanding if it isn't set in steel and concrete.

It won't take 20 billion dollars of unfunded government spending to accomplish, and the new Congress can end it easily.

I look forward to Trump's "State of the Union" speech in January.

It's not the same as being under oath, but it's similar. I don't think he will get through it without lying, and I think that the lies will be dissected and explained.
Maybe not.
This is America.
Tom