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Border Shutdown or Build a Wall?

Do you prefer a border shutdown or a border wall?

  • I'd prefer a border wall instead of a border shutdown.

    Votes: 4 50.0%
  • I'd prefer a border shutdown instead of a border wall.

    Votes: 4 50.0%

  • Total voters
    8

Curious George

Veteran Member
Thanks, my edits have corrected some mathematical errors; but the corrected numbers still do show an illegal immigrant is 3 times more likely to be a murderer than a non-illegal alien. ...:)
No, there are other errors too. You are counting criminal arrests. The number illegals in that report is found under apprehensions here. That number is 362,000 roughly each year not 27k. You have just selected the criminals arrests to discuss. But sure have fun trying to manipulate statistics.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
No, there are other errors too. You are counting criminal arrests. The number illegals in that report is found under apprehensions here. That number is 362,000 roughly each year not 27k. You have just selected the criminals arrests to discuss. But sure have fun trying to manipulate statistics.

I've clearly demonstrated official government statistics do indeed show 0.05 percent of illegal aliens , whom U.S Border Patrol and Customs have arrested over the last few years, are convicted murderers. This is more than three times as much as the 0.015 percent rate of homicide for the overall U.S. general population over the same time period; this is in fact a very alarming indication that illegal aliens are at least three times more likely to murder somebody than either legal immigrants or American citizens.

F.Y.I. ...I'm not here to manipulate data for promoting any particular political agenda, I'm just here to provide objective information that should alarm anybody, who is in a right state of mind, as to why we need an effective border security barrier.
 
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Curious George

Veteran Member
I've clearly demonstrated official government statistics do indeed show 0.05 percent of illegal aliens , whom U.S Border Patrol and Customs have arrested over the last few years, are convicted murderers. This is more than three times as much as the 0.015 percent rate of homicide for the overall U.S. general population over the same time period; this is in fact a very alarming indication that illegal aliens are at least three times more likely to murder somebody than either legal immigrants or American citizens.
No, you haven't. I gave you the number of illegal aliens. In the last three years it is over a million. Out of that you have 14 murders. That is lower than the average U.S. rate.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
No, you haven't. I gave you the number of illegal aliens. In the last three years it is over a million. Out of that you have 14 murders. That is lower than the average U.S. rate.

There's 14 murderers out of somewhere around 27,000 arrests made by U.S. Border agents of illegal aliens over the last few years. There's somewhere around 11 million illegal aliens all together in the United States. There's approximately 400 times more illegal aliens in the United States that have not been arrested by the U.S Border Patrol and Custom agency than have been. If you were to extrapolate the 14 murderers caught by U.S Border Patrol and Customs over the last few years and multiply this factor by a factor 400 times the number of illegal aliens who have not been caught by the U.S. Border Patrol and Custom agency, you'd get somewhere around 5,600 illegal aliens in the U.S who've been convicted of murder during the last few years.

There's somewhere around 50,000 total homicides in the United States over a few year period. I estimate illegal aliens have committed around 5,600 of these 50,000 homicides. So if my estimation is correct. Illegal aliens commit approximately 11 percent of all murders, but they are just between 3 to 4 percent of the overall population; so I've figured illegal aliens are approximately three times more likely to be a murderer than somebody who is not an illegal immigrant.
 
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Curious George

Veteran Member
There's 14 murderers out of somewhere around 27,000 arrests made by U.S. Border agents of illegal aliens over the last few years. There's somewhere around 11 million illegal aliens all together in the United States. There's approximately 400 times more illegal aliens in the United States that have not been arrested by the U.S Border Patrol and Custom agency than have been. If you were to extrapolate the 14 murderers caught by U.S Border Patrol and Customs over the last few years and multiply this factor by a factor 400 times the number of illegal aliens who have not been caught by the U.S. Border Patrol and Custom agency, you'd get somewhere around 5,600 illegal aliens in the U.S who've been convicted of murder during the last few years.
14 murderers out of over 1 million illegal aliens apprehended.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
There's 14 murderers out of somewhere around 27,000 arrests made by U.S. Border agents of illegal aliens over the last few years. There's somewhere around 11 million illegal aliens all together in the United States. There's approximately 400 times more illegal aliens in the United States that have not been arrested by the U.S Border Patrol and Custom agency than have been. If you were to extrapolate the 14 murderers caught by U.S Border Patrol and Customs over the last few years and multiply this factor by a factor 400 times the number of illegal aliens who have not been caught by the U.S. Border Patrol and Custom agency, you'd get somewhere around 5,600 illegal aliens in the U.S who've been convicted of murder during the last few years.
14 murderers out of over 1 million illegal aliens apprehended.

No, there's 14 murderers out of the 27,000 illegal aliens arrested over the last few years by U.S. Border Patrol Agents.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
No, there's 14 murderers out of the 27,000 illegal aliens arrested over the last few years by U.S. Border Patrol Agents.
But that is not the number of illegals that were apprehended in crossing the border. You are not working with the number of illegals, you are workimg with the number of illegals that were arrested for criminal activities.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
But that is not the number of illegals that were apprehended in crossing the border. You are not working with the number of illegals, you are workimg with the number of illegals that were arrested for criminal activities.

"President Donald Trump has been told at multiple meetings on immigration that more than 63,000 American citizens have been killed since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks by immigrants in the U.S. illegally."

Trump says 63,000 Americans were killed by illegal immigrants since 9/11. The math doesn't add up

My estimate is that around 1,800 Americans are killed on average each year by illegal aliens. So, in the 17 years since 2001, that'd equal nearly 31,000 Americans killed by illegal immigrants since 9/11.

I've calculated the POTUS has been misinformed by about a factor of two as far as how many Americans have actually been killed by illegal immigrants.

But even if there are just half as many people killed by illegal aliens as claimed by the POTUS; we still need the wall in order to prevent many of these thousands of violent homicidal illegal immigrants out of our nation.
 
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Curious George

Veteran Member
"President Donald Trump has been told at multiple meetings on immigration that more than 63,000 American citizens have been killed since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks by immigrants in the U.S. illegally."

Trump says 63,000 Americans were killed by illegal immigrants since 9/11. The math doesn't add up

My estimate is that around 1,800 Americans are killed on average each year by illegal aliens. So, in the 17 years since 2001, that'd equal nearly 31,000 Americans killed by illegal immigrants since 9/11.

I believe the POTUS has been misinformed by about a factor of two as far as how many Americans have actually been killed by illegal immigrants.
No, no. Respond to my point if you want to continue this. I was happy to let you continue down your path of manipulating statistics but you brought me back and reasserted the false claim. If we are done with that particular nugget, I will skip on out of this discussion.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
No, no. Respond to my point if you want to continue this. I was happy to let you continue down your path of manipulating statistics but you brought me back and reasserted the false claim. If we are done with that particular nugget, I will skip on out of this discussion.

I've calculated in great detail the approximate number of people killed by illegal aliens in the United States. You've failed to show how this calculation of mine is incorrect.

Just curious, how many Americans do you think have been murdered by illegal aliens?
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
I've calculated in great detail the approximate number of people killed by illegal aliens in the United States. You've failed to show how this calculation of mine is incorrect.

Just curious, how many Americans do you think have been murdered by illegal aliens?
Again this seems to be a change in subject.

The number you were using was supposed to be the number of murderers divided bu the number of illegal aliens apprehended. You were using the wrong number for the number of illegal aliens detected.

I gave a link with the correct numbers. I explained why your number was off. I do not want to discuss "the number of [U.S. citizens] murdered by illegal aliens.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
Again this seems to be a change in subject.

The number you were using was supposed to be the number of murderers divided bu the number of illegal aliens apprehended. You were using the wrong number for the number of illegal aliens detected.

I gave a link with the correct numbers. I explained why your number was off. I do not want to discuss "the number of [U.S. citizens] murdered by illegal aliens.
Again this seems to be a change in subject.

The number you were using was supposed to be the number of murderers divided bu the number of illegal aliens apprehended. You were using the wrong number for the number of illegal aliens detected.

I gave a link with the correct numbers. I explained why your number was off. I do not want to discuss "the number of [U.S. citizens] murdered by illegal aliens.

Sorry, I didn't see where you provided me with any link about the number of illegal aliens detected. Could you please provide me this link and we'll go from there.

Thanks!
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
14 murderers out of over 1 million illegal aliens apprehended.

I'm thinking you might have confused one million illegal aliens apprehended in total by all law enforcement agencies with the 27,000 of whom have been apprehended by U.S. Customs and Border Protection Agency during the last few years. There are 14 out of these 27,000 illegal aliens who are convicted murders rather than just only 14 convicted murderers out of the one million total illegal immigrants arrested by all law enforcement agencies in total , which I think you might be absurdly claiming to be the case. Are you claiming that out of one million total illegal immigrants arrested in the United States over the last few years, only 14 of them are convicted murderers?
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Sorry, I didn't see where you provided me with any link about the number of illegal aliens detected. Could you please provide me this link and we'll go from there.

Thanks!
No worries.
It was in this post. Click on word "here" in that post.
No, there are other errors too. You are counting criminal arrests. The number illegals in that report is found under apprehensions here. That number is 362,000 roughly each year not 27k. You have just selected the criminals arrests to discuss. But sure have fun trying to manipulate statistics.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
I'm thinking you might have confused one million illegal aliens apprehended in total by all law enforcement agencies with the 27,000 of whom have been apprehended by U.S. Customs and Border Protection Agency during the last few years. There are 14 out of these 27,000 illegal aliens who are convicted murders rather than just only 14 convicted murderers out of the one million total illegal immigrants arrested by all law enforcement agencies in total , which I think you might be absurdly claiming to be the case. Are you claiming that out of one million total illegal immigrants arrested in the United States over the last few years, only 14 of them are convicted murderers?
I am claiming that out of the million apprehended. The U.S. does not consider illegal aliens criminals. This is why they can be deported in some cases without a criminal trial and why they have deportation hearings instead of criminal hearings. Some however are charged with crimes. The number you were usimg was the number of illegals arrested. This is illegals who are charged with a crime (not simply being in the U.S. illegally).
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
What post number is that "here" in this thread? ...;)
Yes you can click on it even where I quoted it. Just read this quote and click on the hyperlink inside.

No, there are other errors too. You are counting criminal arrests. The number illegals in that report is found under apprehensions here. That number is 362,000 roughly each year not 27k. You have just selected the criminals arrests to discuss. But sure have fun trying to manipulate statistics.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
I am claiming that out of the million apprehended. The U.S. does not consider illegal aliens criminals. This is why they can be deported in some cases without a criminal trial and why they have deportation hearings instead of criminal hearings. Some however are charged with crimes. The number you were usimg was the number of illegals arrested. This is illegals who are charged with a crime (not simply being in the U.S. illegally).

Okay....anyways...President Trump has been told by government immigration officials that approximately 63,000 Americans have been killed by illegal aliens since 9/11. (September 11th, 2001). My calculations show around 31,000 Americans have been killed by illegal aliens since then. If a border security barrier would have been put in place since then to have prevented some few thousand of these many of thousands of homicides, it'd been well worth the cost of having built an effective border security barrier. In order to prevent such tragic deaths from reoccurring, we need an effective border security barrier.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
There are more Government workers who are Democrats than Republican. The shut down is already causing political pressure for the Democrats, via threats from union leaders, who give most of the union donations to Democrats; 90%.

If the Union leaders decide to have a strike, to gain control of the situation, this will open the door for Trump get rid of the unions, with scabs. President Reagan did this with aircraft controllers. This will hit the Democrats where is hurts; donation wallet. Donation money will need to go to striking union members.

The wall is needed because it is a passive restraint to illegal immigration. Sealing the border with troops is dynamic and more expensive. The latter is also subject to the whims of who is in charge, and can be dissolved easier than a wall, by Executive order. A wall is more permanent and can outlast changes in power in Washington.

Shutting down the border can be an effective tool in terms of concessions with Mexico. We have a huge trade deficit with Mexico that costs more per year, that a one time wall cost. Border sealing will cause business pressure on the government of Mexico. Mexico may choose to compromise and pay for a southern border wall along its central American border. This will take the pressure off the US border. A wall will then be very effective and may be the only way the Democrats can keep union due coming their way.


Democrats are united and remain united that there will be no wall.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Okay....anyways...President Trump has been told by government immigration officials that approximately 63,000 Americans have been killed by illegal aliens since 9/11. (September 11th, 2001). My calculations show around 31,000 Americans have been killed by illegal aliens since then. If a border security barrier would have been put in place since then to have prevented some few thousand of these many of thousands of homicides, it'd been well worth the cost of having built an effective border security barrier. In order to prevent such tragic deaths from reoccurring, we need an effective border security barrier.
I value unattributed and unreferenced numeric claims at exactly what I paid for them - zero. But if the death toll bothers you, then it's time to crack down HARD on all the guns in society.
 
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