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Border Shutdown or Build a Wall?

Do you prefer a border shutdown or a border wall?

  • I'd prefer a border wall instead of a border shutdown.

    Votes: 4 50.0%
  • I'd prefer a border shutdown instead of a border wall.

    Votes: 4 50.0%

  • Total voters
    8

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
"President Donald Trump has been told at multiple meetings on immigration that more than 63,000 American citizens have been killed since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks by immigrants in the U.S. illegally."

Trump says 63,000 Americans were killed by illegal immigrants since 9/11. The math doesn't add up

My estimate is that around 1,800 Americans are killed on average each year by illegal aliens. So, in the 17 years since 2001, that'd equal nearly 31,000 Americans killed by illegal immigrants since 9/11.

I've calculated the POTUS has been misinformed by about a factor of two as far as how many Americans have actually been killed by illegal immigrants.

But even if there are just half as many people killed by illegal aliens as claimed by the POTUS; we still need the wall in order to prevent many of these thousands of violent homicidal illegal immigrants out of our nation.
I value unattributed and unreferenced numeric claims at exactly what I paid for them - zero. But if the death toll bothers you, then it's time to crack down HARD on all the guns in society.


Trump says 63,000 Americans were killed by illegal immigrants since 9/11. The math doesn't add up

In meetings about immigration, President Trump has been advised there have been 63,000 Americans killed by illegal immigrants since 9/11/01; this according to an online news report from CNBC.

I've figured this 63,000 Americans killed by illegal immigrants since 9/11/01 is probably the approximate number of illegal immigrants arrested for homicide since 9/11/01, but probably about half of those illegal aliens arrested for homicide actually get convicted from being legally charged of murder.

F.Y.I... There are no guns that can kill anybody without somebody pulling the trigger.

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Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
your mistake is, I have to repeat this because you ignored it, you're comparing arrests for homicide with actual homicides, arrests for homicide are greater than the actual number of homicides, You're FBI statistics are homicides, not arrests, you'e immigrant statistics are arrests, not homicides.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
from wikepedia, arrests for homicide for hispanics barely higher than for whites

Homicide[edit]
According to the US Department of Justice, African Americans accounted for 52.5% of all homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with European Americans 45.3% and "Other" 2.2%. The offending rate for African Americans was almost 8 times higher than European Americans, and the victim rate 6 times higher. Most homicides were intraracial, with 84% of European Americans victims killed by European Americans, and 93% of African Americans victims were killed by African Americans.[49][50][51]

In 2013, number and percentage of murder arrests by race were:

Black or African Americans 4,379 = 51.3%
White Americans (non-Hispanic Americans) 2,861 = 33.5%
Hispanic Americans 1,096 = 12.8%
American Indians or Alaska Natives 98 = 1.14%
Asian Americans 101 = 1.18%[52][53]
Inversely, the percentage of individuals in each racial demographic arrested for murder in 2013 (with 2016 population estimates) was:

0.0102% of Black or African American population (4,379/42,975,959)
0.0023% of American Indian or Alaska Native population (98/4,200,658)
0.0019% Hispanic American population (1,096/57,516,697)
0.0014% of White American (3,799/198,077,165)
0.0010% of Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander population (6/646,255)
0.0005% of Asian American population (101/18,418,268)[52][54]
Blacks account for the majority of gun homicide victims/arestees in the US while whites account for the vast majority of non-gun homicide victims/arrestees, of the gun murder victims in the United States between 2007-2016, 57% were black, 40.6% white (including Hispanic), 1.35% asian, 0.98% unknown race and 0.48% native american.

Non-gun homicides, represented about 30% of total murders in the time period. Blacks were still overrepresented although only by about 2.5x their share of the general population.[55] Of the non-gun murder victims in the United States between 2007-2016, 61.5% were white ( including Hispanic), 32.9% black, 2.29% asian, 1.89% unknown race and 1.43% native american.[56]
 

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
from wikepedia, arrests for homicide for hispanics barely higher than for whites

Homicide[edit]
According to the US Department of Justice, African Americans accounted for 52.5% of all homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with European Americans 45.3% and "Other" 2.2%. The offending rate for African Americans was almost 8 times higher than European Americans, and the victim rate 6 times higher. Most homicides were intraracial, with 84% of European Americans victims killed by European Americans, and 93% of African Americans victims were killed by African Americans.[49][50][51]

In 2013, number and percentage of murder arrests by race were:

Black or African Americans 4,379 = 51.3%
White Americans (non-Hispanic Americans) 2,861 = 33.5%
Hispanic Americans 1,096 = 12.8%
American Indians or Alaska Natives 98 = 1.14%
Asian Americans 101 = 1.18%[52][53]
Inversely, the percentage of individuals in each racial demographic arrested for murder in 2013 (with 2016 population estimates) was:

0.0102% of Black or African American population (4,379/42,975,959)
0.0023% of American Indian or Alaska Native population (98/4,200,658)
0.0019% Hispanic American population (1,096/57,516,697)
0.0014% of White American (3,799/198,077,165)
0.0010% of Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander population (6/646,255)
0.0005% of Asian American population (101/18,418,268)[52][54]
Blacks account for the majority of gun homicide victims/arestees in the US while whites account for the vast majority of non-gun homicide victims/arrestees, of the gun murder victims in the United States between 2007-2016, 57% were black, 40.6% white (including Hispanic), 1.35% asian, 0.98% unknown race and 0.48% native american.

Non-gun homicides, represented about 30% of total murders in the time period. Blacks were still overrepresented although only by about 2.5x their share of the general population.[55] Of the non-gun murder victims in the United States between 2007-2016, 61.5% were white ( including Hispanic), 32.9% black, 2.29% asian, 1.89% unknown race and 1.43% native american.[56]
Do those statistics mean illegal immigrants who are violent should be allowed to enter and stay in the US (or any other country for that matter)?
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
yes, it means illegal immigrants who are no more violent than other Americans should be allowed to stay.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
Do those statistics mean illegal immigrants who are violent should be allowed to enter and stay in the US (or any other country for that matter)?

Illegal aliens are more likely to be violent criminals than are American citizens or legal immigrants; of course, illegal immigrants should not be allowed to be trespassing in our nation. If an effective border security barrier works as well at the U.S-Mexico border as the security barrier around the Hungary-Serbia and Hungary-Croatia border works, then this will keep thousands of these violent criminals from trespassing into our nation from Mexico.

Hungarian border barrier - Wikipedia

"Using newly released detailed data on all prisoners who entered the Arizona state prison from January 1985 through June 2017, we are able to separate non-U.S. citizens by whether they are illegal or legal residents. Unlike other studies, these data do not rely on self-reporting of criminal backgrounds. Undocumented immigrants are at least 142% more likely to be convicted of a crime than other Arizonans. They also tend to commit more serious crimes and serve 10.5% longer sentences, more likely to be classified as dangerous, and 45% more likely to be gang members than U.S. citizens. Yet, there are several reasons that these numbers are likely to underestimate the share of crime committed by undocumented immigrants. There are dramatic differences between in the criminal histories of convicts who are U.S. citizens and undocumented immigrants.

Young convicts are especially likely to be undocumented immigrants. While undocumented immigrants from 15 to 35 years of age make up slightly over two percent of the Arizona population, they make up about eight percent of the prison population. Even after adjusting for the fact that young people commit crime at higher rates, young undocumented immigrants commit crime at twice the rate of young U.S. citizens. These undocumented immigrants also tend to commit more serious crimes.

If undocumented immigrants committed crime nationally as they do in Arizona, in 2016 they would have been responsible for over 1,000 more murders, 5,200 rapes, 8,900 robberies, 25,300 aggravated assaults, and 26,900 burglaries."

Undocumented Immigrants, U.S. Citizens, and Convicted Criminals in Arizona by John R. Lott :: SSRN
 
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Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
yes, it means illegal immigrants who are no more violent than other Americans should be allowed to stay.
Ridiculous. One violent person is a citizen. The other is not. One is supposed to be here. The other is not.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
F.Y.I. ...I'm not here to manipulate data for promoting any particular political agenda, I'm just here to provide objective information that should alarm anybody, who is in a right state of mind, as to why we need an effective border security barrier.

Your thread title, poll question and OP presents a false choice between Congress funding an enormously expensive border wall or Trump "sealing off the boder," a false choice that explicitly parrots Trump's idiocy. If it were true that your purpose is not to promote Trump's agenda, then you would not have given us this false choice. Again, Trump does not have the statutory authority to "seal off the border, " as you describe it, a fact it should have taken you about a minute to discover.

If it were true that your purpose is not to promote Trump's political agenda but only to provide "objective information showing why we need effective border security," you would be able to deduce that proposition from facts. You haven't been able to do so. What do you claim this border security needs to be effective in achieving? Lower homicide rates in the US? You haven't even begun to show that a border wall would plausibly achieve such an effect. The vast majority of homicides are not committed by people who have entered the US by coming across the Southern border outside of a port of entry. The vast majority of unauthorized aliens in the US entered the country with a legal visa.

Whether you recognize it or not, you are merely parroting Trump's ignorant, bigoted agenda.
 

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Your thread title, poll question and OP presents a false choice between Congress funding an enormously expensive border wall or Trump "sealing off the boder," a false choice that explicitly parrots Trump's idiocy. If it were true that your purpose is not to promote Trump's agenda, then you would not have given us this false choice. Again, Trump does not have the statutory authority to "seal off the border, " as you describe it, a fact it should have taken you about a minute to discover.

If it were true that your purpose is not to promote Trump's political agenda but only to provide "objective information showing why we need effective border security," you would be able to deduce that proposition from facts. You haven't been able to do so. What do you claim this border security needs to be effective in achieving? Lower homicide rates in the US? You haven't even begun to show that a border wall would plausibly achieve such an effect. The vast majority of homicides are not committed by people who have entered the US by coming across the Southern border outside of a port of entry. The vast majority of unauthorized aliens in the US entered the country with a legal visa.

Whether you recognize it or not, you are merely parroting Trump's ignorant, bigoted agenda.
And you are merely parroting the liberal media. Take a look at the video linked below. It answers some of your questions but I doubt you’re sincerely interested.


Build the Wall
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Some people just hate Mexicans, and are willing to make up all kinds of lies to justify their hatred. Unfortunate but true.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
And you are merely parroting the liberal media.

If so, then good for "the liberal media" for presenting documented facts.

Take a look at the video linked below. It answers some of your questions but I doubt you’re sincerely interested.


Build the Wall
I don't get my information from from videos. If you know of any evidence that anything I said above is erroneous, then provide it.

The one question I asked in the above post is only answerable by @Salvador
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Salvador made up his own "facts" with funky math. For instance one government study says roughly 1000 hispanics were arrested for murder in 2017 (only 25% more per capita than for white Americans). Salvadors study says 7000 illegal aliens were arrested for homicide each year. One of these studies is wrong, and they both supposedly come from the government?????
 

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
If so, then good for "the liberal media" for presenting documented facts.


I don't get my information from from videos. If you know of any evidence that anything I said above is erroneous, then provide it.

The one question I asked in the above post is only answerable by @Salvador
Typical. You refuse to watch a very reasonable video full of facts because you know it will blow your views out of the water.
 

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The leftists here are willing to allow violent illegal immigrants into the US to kill US citizens and legal residents. Let that sink in.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Typical. You refuse to watch a very reasonable video full of facts because you know it will blow your views out of the water.
False. I will repeat:

I don't get my information from from videos. If you know of any evidence that anything I said above is erroneous, then cite it and substantiate it.

The one question I asked in the above post is only answerable by @Salvador
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
The POTUS is not fear mongering; just a few days ago, a legal immigrant policeman in California was killed by an illegal immigrant from Mexico. American citizens are indeed being seriously harmed or killed by violent illegal immigrants who've trespassed across an open American-Mexican border.

Hey! Let's all cherrypick non representative outlier examplies that confirm our preexisting biases and pretend it's a legitimate argument!
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
Question to all the wannabe wall builders... of all the examples of "violent illegal immigrants" you cañ find, how many entered the US in a way that would have been stopped by a wall? Of that number,how many would have then been able to enter some other way, like entering legally and then staying after their visa expires? Serious question.
 
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Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Question to all the wannabe wall builders... of all the examples of "violent illegal immigrants" you cañ find, how many entered the US in a way that would have been stopped by a wall? Of that number,how many would have then been able to enter some other way, like entering legally and then staying after their visa expires?
To add another option to your second question: " . . . or could enter through one of the already existing or soon-to-be-built tunnels."
 
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