Bahaullah has revealed!

[Vinayaka]

The one about the translation. Personally if a quran verse is quoted, we must be able to find translation that is correct.

There can be no such thing as a 'correct' translation. With any translation, the translator has a number of choices for each word. As with religious beliefs, none are correct, they are all subjective. But of course if we had 100 people familiar with both languages vote on two translations, and one gets say 90% of the vote, as being better, then it's pretty safe to conclude.

In Hinduism, the Bhagavad Gita is the most translated text, with at least 50 English translations, all being different.

So, 'correct' often just means the one any particular reader prefers personally.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There can be no such thing as a 'correct' translation. With any translation, the translator has a number of choices for each word. As with religious beliefs, none are correct, they are all subjective. But of course if we had 100 people familiar with both languages vote on two translations, and one gets say 90% of the vote, as being better, then it's pretty safe to conclude.

In Hinduism, the Bhagavad Gita is the most translated text, with at least 50 English translations, all being different.

So, 'correct' often just means the one any particular reader prefers personally.

Yes, and in that regard I would hope the translation best reflects the intent of the Author, as that can get very messy.

I would hope that the Baha'i and other scholars can do a good job of it in the future. It does explain why at this time, good translations do take some time.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes, and in that regard I would hope the translation best reflects the intent of the Author, as that can get very messy.

I would hope that the Baha'i and other scholars can do a good job of it in the future. It does explain why at this time, good translations do take some time.

The problem is just that ego and agendas are involved. Every scholar (inclusive of Baha'is) figures his translation is better than any previous scholar's. Else he wouldn't have bothered.

It's a no win.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The problem is just that ego and agendas are involved. Every scholar (inclusive of Baha'is) figures his translation is better than any previous scholars. Else he wouldn't have bothered.

It's a no win.

Ha ha, it appears that way. But look at the bright side, you have managed to help modify a few views here. Thus it can not be all that bad.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The problem is just that ego and agendas are involved. Every scholar (inclusive of Baha'is) figures his translation is better than any previous scholars. Else he wouldn't have bothered.

It's a no win.

I would add, I do see many would be motivated by wanting to impart the true meaning. I see some would not try to impart their own view. To control this, I see it would need a group to discuss the final outcome.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Ha ha, it appears that way. But look at the bright side, you have managed to help modify a few views here. Thus it can not be all that bad.

I'm no scholar, and I don't think I've modified anyone's views at all. People just know enough not to insult Hinduism when they're around me or chatting with me. I seriously doubt if any views have actually been modified. It may appear that way, but I don't think so. If I disappear from sight, Krishna as a manifestation in the Baha'i view will come right back.

 

[Vinayaka]

I would add, I do see many would be motivated by wanting to impart the true meaning. I see some would not try to impart their own view. To control this, I see it would need a group to discuss the final outcome.

They might be motivated to impart a 'true meaning', but I'll reiterate ... there can be no true meaning, so their goals will never be met. It's unrealistic.

 

[loverofhumanity]

1. Bahaullah did not claim in express,clear and unequivocal manner in Kitab-i-Iqan that he was a messenger/prophet of G-d. Did he, please? If yes, kindly quote from Kitab-i-Iqan in this connection, please.
2. The well grounded people are those:
   • who have studied/pondered over Quran intently from the context verses
   • as well as from other places in Quran
   • and not from elsewhere.

Sorry, we cannot accept hegemony of Bahaullah and or Shoghi Effendi* on Quran, unreasonably and haphazardly, please.

Regards

_____________
*Shogui Effendi did not quote the Quranic text in Arabic, he quoted the translation of Quran verses sometimes, if not most of the times, changing the Rodwell's translation he opted, capitalizing the initial letters of the words or uncapitalizing them against the norms.

As you know Baha’u’llah did not directly proclaim Himself until 1963 but He did allude to His Manifestation in the Iqan indirectly. The Abode Of Peace is Baghdad.

“We seal Our theme with that which was formerly revealed unto Muhammad that the seal thereof may shed the fragrance of that holy musk which leadeth men unto the Ridván of unfading splendour. He said, and His Word is the truth: “And God calleth to the Abode of Peace; and He guideth whom He will into the right way. “For them is an Abode of Peace with their Lord! and He shall be their Protector because of their works.”This He hath revealed that His grace may encompass the world. Praise be to God, the Lord of all being!”


The Kitáb-i-Íqán
Bahá’u’lláh

Quran10:25

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I'm no scholar, and I don't think I've modified anyone's views at all. People just know enough not to insult Hinduism when they're around ot chatting with me. I seriously doubt if any views have actually been modified. It may appear that way, but I don't think so. If I disappear from sight, Krishna an a manifestation in the Baha'i view will come right back.

Well to me a Baha'i can not change that aspect, we see Krishna as a Manifestation of God, it is part of our writings now. There may very well be many Hindus of different thoughts, that see that as quite OK?

On the other hand much has been learnt about how divergent the Hindu Faith is and that not all follow a book or even God etc etc.

All great and good, stay happy, regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Well to me a Baha'i can not change that aspect, we see Krishna as a Manifestation of God, it is part of our writings now. There may very well be many Hindus of different thoughts, that see that as quite OK?

On the other hand much has been learnt about how divergent the Hindu Faith is and that not all follow a book or even God etc etc.

Perhaps there has been some information added, but certainly no minds have been changed. There might indeed be a few extremely liberal Hindus that (I met one on another forum, lol) that think like Baha'is. But in my view they are then far more Baha'i than Hindu. Same with Hindus who claim to accept Christ. They might just as well convert and get it over with.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Perhaps there has been some information added, but certainly no minds have been changed. There might indeed be a few extremely liberal Hindus that (I met one on another forum, lol) that think like Baha'is. But in my view they are then far more Baha'i than Hindu. Same with Hindus who claim to accept Christ. They might just as well convert and get it over with.

Ha ha we can have that laugh, I can tell you I was ROFLOL

In the end I see we should be a benefit to all that we share our lives with, in preference to self.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Ha ha we can have that laugh, I can tell you I was ROFLOL

In the end I see we should be a benefit to all that we share our lives with, in preference to self.

People are all free to claim whatever they wish. Whether or not anyone believes them is another story. You can say you're a Catholic that doesn't believe in God, throws rocks at churches, is all for abortion, and more, but people may be hesitant to believe you're actually a Catholic. You can claim you're a messenger of God, make all kinds of outlandish claims as to your own superiourity and powers, but do nothing at all to prove it, and a few people might just be hesitant to believe you. So too with Hindus. You can eat all the steak you want, have 6 wives, love Jesus with all your might, spit on Hindu temples, and still claim you're a Hindu. Again, a few people might be a tad hesitant to believe you.

We need to separate claims from actions.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

We need to separate claims from actions.

That is a key differnece in our views. Personally I see those that have the Truth, their person and actions are their claim, they can not be seperated.

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

The one about the translation. Personally if a quran verse is quoted, we must be able to find translation that is correct.

If the understanding of a verse of the Quran is quoted from a tradition, then the tradition should be available.

The problem is we do not read or speak the source languages. It may be given.yoir academic abilities, that you may be able to answer hour own question. Why did Shoghi Effendi provide this translation. There will be an answer, or it will be shown to be an error.

Shoghi Effendi has suggested that he feels better translations may happen in the future.

Regards Tony

Hi Tony,

In that particular passage Baha’u’llah has interpreted it figuratively not literally whereas hundreds if not thousands of translators have interpreted it literally. Of course as a Manifestation of God we Baha’is believe that His choice is the correct one and unquestionable. It’s similar to the one in the Bible where the name Ahmad was replaced with Comforter but originally Ahmad or Muhammad was there. It doesn’t need to be verified as it’s the Word of a Manifestation of God and ‘He does whatsoever He willeth’. The scholars could have interpreted it figuratively as the Arabic words are there to do so but they chose it to mean what they understood it to mean instead of what it really meant.

However there are traditions which do condemn the Caliphs to hell as Suns and moons and this is known to Persians who He was addressing at the time so there was no question about its interpretation at that time. The reason being that they seized power from Ali when they knew all along Muhammad favoured Him.

Also He alludes to His Manifestation when He refers to the Abode Of Peace quoted in the Quran which is Baghdad.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hi Tony,

In that particular passage Baha’u’llah has interpreted it figuratively not literally whereas hundreds if not thousands of translators have interpreted it literally. Of course as a Manifestation of God we know that His choice is the correct one and unquestionable. It’s similar to the one in the Bible where the name Ahmad was replaced with Comforter but originally Ahmad or Muhammad was there. It doesn’t need to be verified as it’s the Word of a Manifestation of God and ‘He does whatsoever He willeth’. The scholars could have interpreted it figuratively as the Arabic words are there to do so but they chose it to mean what they understood it to mean instead of what it really meant.

However there are traditions which do condemn the Caliphs to hell as Suns and moons and this is known to Persians who He was addressing at the time so there was no question about its interpretation at that time.

Also He alludes to His Manifestation when He refers to the Abode Of Peace quoted in the Quran which is Baghdad.

I have not read this for a while, will go back and read it all in context. Thank you for the heads up, long weekend, may get some time to do this

On my wee phone, it does not make it easy to open and explore multipul links.

Hope you are well, Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

That is a key differnece in our views. Personally I see those that have the Truth, their person and actions are their claim, they can not be seperated.

Regards Tony

I am the prime minister of Australia. I'll be coming over to your place this morning. Have the coffee ready, Tony.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I am the prime minister of Australia. I'll be coming over to your place this morning. Have the coffee ready, Tony.

Really. O mister Prime Minster please do drop in to see me too. I’d like to get a selfie with you and your autograph as well.

 

[Vinayaka]

Really. O mister Prime Minster please do drop in to see me too. I’d like to get a selfie with you and your autograph as well.

Oh yes, I'll be there. After all, the Baha'i s believe that one can't separate claims from actions. Claims are equal to actions, right?

Seriously, did you understand the point, though?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Oh yes, I'll be there. After all, the Baha'i s believe that one can't separate claims from actions. Claims are equal to actions, right?

Seriously, did you understand the point, though?

I wasn’t following the conversation so what do you mean?

 

[Muffled]

Thanks for a Christian view on the matter.
Regards

I believe I like to view it as a rational view. Christian teaching isn't always the same or right.