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Featured Bahaullah has revealed!

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by paarsurrey, Mar 24, 2019.

  1. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    May I ask you what have you seen foundational that indicate Jesus heard from God, or was God, or Son of God?
     
  2. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    You’re an unusual Christian in the you also believe in Muhammad and the Quran. What is it that makes Muhammad a Prophet for you?
     
  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    I do not know what you are getting at... :confused:
     
  4. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    Thank you for being so very observant!

    Thank you very much for picking that up. I will pass it on.
     
  5. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    I think the reason that verse number is different from most Quran numbering, is because, the Rodwell Translation was numbered a little differently in older versions. He had in some cases, had combined 2 verses, into one verse.
     
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  6. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    I observe that a verse of Quran has been incorrectly translated by Shoghí Effendí:

    Qur’án 55:5. [ Back To Reference] incorrect translation done in Iqan.

    Even as He saith : “Verily, the sun and the moon are both condemned to the torment of infernal fire.”24
    Arabic Text of the verse is:
    اَلشَّمۡسُ وَ الۡقَمَرُ بِحُسۡبَانٍ
    Correct translations:
    The sun and the moon run their courses according to a fixed reckoning.

    Edward Henry Palmer:
    The sun and the moon have their appointed time;
    George Sale
    The sun and the moon run their courses according to a certain rule:
    John Medows Rodwell
    The Sun and the Moon have each their times,
    N J Dawood (2014)
    The sun and the moon pursue their ordered course.
    ar-Rahman 55:5

    This needs to be corrected, please.
    Regards
     
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  7. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    Thank you pasrsurrey. This is what I found..

    Even as He saith: "Verily, the sun and the moon are both condemned to the torment of infernal fire. 179 179.

    This verse (Súrah 55, The Merciful, verse 5) has been interpreted differently by the Sunni and Shí‘ah commentators of the Qur’án.

    The Shí‘ah sources present this verse as: "Verily, the sun and the moon are both condemned to the torment of infernal fire.”

    Sunnis, and English translations by non-Shí‘ah translators, present this verse as:

    “The Sun and the Moon have each their times,” (The Qur’án, Rodwell tr)

    “The sun and the moon are made punctual.” (The Qur’án, Pickthall tr)

    “The sun and the moon follow courses (exactly) computed;” (The Qur’án, Yusuf Ali tr)

    The operating word is the Arabic word “Husbán,” which means Hell, and comes from the root of “Hesáb,” which means calculation. Those that considered the sun and moon mentioned in this verse as the physical sun and moon, interpreted it to mean that the sun and moon are in a regulated or calculated course. However, some of the commentators have, based on the Shí‘ah traditions, considered the “Husbán” as Hell and Sun and Moon as certain people who had high stations among the people of their time, but were condemned to the torment of Hell. (Self Study notes for the Kitab-i-Iqan)

    So the Shiahs considered this verse as condemnation of the Caliphs for seizing power instead of handing it over to Ali.

    Again, the various sects have a very different interpretation and translation of the Quran. Hope this helps.
     
    #67 loverofhumanity, Apr 15, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019
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  8. lukethethird

    lukethethird Well-Known Member

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    Bahaullah has revealed!
    The issue facing God believers is that they are prone to believe this sort of thing.
     
  9. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    All praise be to Allah (God) for that.

    Regards Tony
     
  10. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "Arabic word “Husbán,” which means Hell"
    1. Please quote from a reputed Arabic lexicon for "Husban" meaning hell.
    2. IslamAwakened is a site which gives 50+ translations of Quran rendered by Shia/Sunni/Non-Muslim ect. scholars, none of them agrees with the translation of "Husban" as Hell.
    3. When Shoghi Effindi was following Rodwell translation, then why leave it ?
    Regards
     
    #70 paarsurrey, Apr 16, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
  11. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    This interpretation from Baha’u’llah is based upon a Shiah tradition..

    The interpretation referred to here by Bahá’u’lláh is based on a tradition related to one of the Shí‘ah Imáms (Imám Riḍá) who interpreted “Husbán” as the divine torment, and Sun and Moon as some of the important figures and leaders in early Islamic history, who, as a result of their opposition to Islam, would be condemned to the torment of Hell. (Source: ‘Abdu’l-Ḥamíd Ishráq-Khávari, Qámus-i-Íqán, Vol. 4, p. 1480)

    Qamus-i Iqan, Volumes 1-4
     
  12. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Please quote from a renowned Lexicon for the meaning of the word "Husban" and its usage from Arabic poetry and or prose.

    It is Quran that judges* every tradition, Quran is not judged by any tradition whether Sunni or Shia or whatever etc.

    Regards
    _____________
    *AYAH at-Tariq 86:13
    Arabic[​IMG] إِنَّهُ لَقَوْلٌ فَصْلٌ [​IMG]
    Transliteration[​IMG] Innahu laqawlun faslun [​IMG]
    Transliteration-2 innahu laqawlun faṣlun [​IMG]
    Literal
    (Word by Word) Indeed, it (is) surely a Word decisive,
    Non-Muslim and/or Orientalist works
    Arthur John Arberry[​IMG] surely it is a decisive word; [​IMG]
    Edward Henry Palmer[​IMG] Verily, it is indeed a distinguishing speech, [​IMG]
    George Sale[​IMG] Verily this is a discourse distinguishing good from evil; [​IMG]
    John Medows Rodwell[​IMG] That this Koran is a discriminating discourse, [​IMG]
    N J Dawood (2014) this¹ is a discerning utterance,
    at-Tariq 86:13

    *Quran 7:186
    فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيثٍ بَعْدَهُ يُؤْمِنُونَ
    Literal
    (Word by Word) So in what statement/story/hadith after this will they believe?

    John Medows Rodwell[​IMG] And in what other book will they believe who reject the Koran?
    al-A`raf 7:185
     
  13. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    The Quran is the Word of God but what is not are the translators or scholars. They are just human and do not know the true meaning of the verses of the Quran. Only a Messenger Of God knows when a Sura is literal and when it has a figurative meaning Baha’u’llah, as a Manifestation of God has correctly applied a figurative meaning to this passage.

    It doesn’t matter that 100,000 scholars interpret it literally all that matters is what is the meaning given by God and His Manifestation. In that case it is the only correct meaning and all other literal interpretations wrong.

    None knoweth the interpretation thereof but God and they that are well-grounded in knowledge” (Q. 3/7).

    And Baha’u’llah, as a Manifestation of God Who is the Voice of God stated the correct meaning of 55:5 which is figurative not literal. His interpretation is from God not tradition.
     
  14. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    1. Bahaullah did not claim in express,clear and unequivocal manner in Kitab-i-Iqan that he was a messenger/prophet of G-d. Did he, please? If yes, kindly quote from Kitab-i-Iqan in this connection, please.
    2. The well grounded people are those:
      • who have studied/pondered over Quran intently from the context verses
      • as well as from other places in Quran
      • and not from elsewhere.
    Sorry, we cannot accept hegemony of Bahaullah and or Shoghi Effendi* on Quran, unreasonably and haphazardly, please.

    Regards

    _____________
    *Shogui Effendi did not quote the Quranic text in Arabic, he quoted the translation of Quran verses sometimes, if not most of the times, changing the Rodwell's translation he opted, capitalizing the initial letters of the words or uncapitalizing them against the norms.
     
    #74 paarsurrey, Apr 16, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
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  15. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    This question requires more knowledge than I have paarsurry. If @Sen McGlinn is around, he may be able to give more thoughts for an answer.

    Regards Tony
     
  16. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    Prophet Muhammad also did not announce His Prophethood immediately but that doesn’t mean He wasn’t a Prophet at the time.

    Baha’u’llah’s authority as a Manifestation of God began in 1852 but He did not announce it immediately. He was a Manifestation when the Iqan was revealed so it is to us Baha’is the Word of God. As a Manifestation He interprets as He pleases with full authority from God.

    The Quran is not the last Book to be revealed to humanity. God will always send Words to us forever which is a firm promise in the Quran itself.

    31:27 If all the trees on earth were pens and the ocean ˹were ink˺, refilled by seven other oceans, the Words of Allah would not be exhausted. Surely Allah is Almighty, All-Wise.
     
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  17. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    paarsurrey said:
    1. Bahaullah did not claim in express,clear and unequivocal manner in Kitab-i-Iqan that he was a messenger/prophet of G-d. Did he, please? If yes, kindly quote from Kitab-i-Iqan in this connection, please.
    2. The well grounded people are those:
      • who have studied/pondered over Quran intently from the context verses
      • as well as from other places in Quran
      • and not from elsewhere.
    Sorry, we cannot accept hegemony of Bahaullah and or Shoghi Effendi on Quran, unreasonably and haphazardly, please.

    Regards
    Which question of the two, about Bahaullah's claim about messenger/prophet of G-d or about the well-grounded in knowledge people of Quran or both?
    I am an open mind, I don't mind if @Sen McGlinn is around and joins the discussion.

    Regards
     
  18. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    The one about the translation. Personally if a quran verse is quoted, we must be able to find translation that is correct.

    If the understanding of a verse of the Quran is quoted from a tradition, then the tradition should be available.

    The problem is we do not read or speak the source languages. It may be given.yoir academic abilities, that you may be able to answer hour own question. Why did Shoghi Effendi provide this translation. There will be an answer, or it will be shown to be an error.

    Shoghi Effendi has suggested that he feels better translations may happen in the future.

    Regards Tony
     
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  19. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "Shoghi Effendi has suggested that he feels better translations may happen in the future."

    There were other translation also:
    [​IMG]
    Ellison's photo-op reenactment of his ceremony with Thomas Jefferson's Quran, 4 January 2007
    The next major English translation of note was by John Rodwell, Rector of St. Ethelburga, London, released in 1861, entitled The Koran. It was soon followed in 1880 with a two-volume edition by E.H. Palmer, a Cambridge scholar, who was entrusted with the preparation of the new translation for Max Muller's Sacred Books of the East series[citation needed].
    English translations of the Quran - Wikipedia
    Now there are 50+ Quran translations available online @ IslamAwakened website, just a click away.
    If Shoghi Effendi had kept the Arabic text of Quran intact, as did Bahaullah in Farsi Iqan and as did Arabic Iqan, and then given the translations and footnotes for every verse as to why he opted to change/disfigure the translation of Quran by even Rodwell, that would have been proper.
    It creates hurdles in the way of a sincere search/research.
    Is it to expect too much of an educated and resourceful community, please?
    Sorry, if I hurt somebody's feelings, but we are having a friendly discussion, please. Right, please?

    Regards
     
  20. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    All Good Paarsurry, it is great you bring these issues up. Only when you do that can any error be fixed, or clarified.

    I also meant to suggest that Shoghi Effendi suggested that His Translations of the Baha'i Writings may be reviewed in the future as well. He had a massive work load.

    I hope someone with a sound knowledge of this can give an answer. I also would like to see a bit more than @loverofhumanity offered. I see some good points he made, but from an academjc standpoint, I also see this would be uncomfortable.

    Regards Tony
     
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