Bahaullah has revealed!

[InvestigateTruth]

I have never seen anything foundational that would indicate that the B man heard from God.

May I ask you what have you seen foundational that indicate Jesus heard from God, or was God, or Son of God?

 

[Dawnofhope]

I have never seen anything foundational that would indicate that the B man heard from God.

You’re an unusual Christian in the you also believe in Muhammad and the Quran. What is it that makes Muhammad a Prophet for you?

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe a person can reeal his own thinking but then usually one thinks about what one has learned.

I do not know what you are getting at...

 

[loverofhumanity]

I quote from Iqan:
"This station is also one of the signs of the Day of Revelation; even as it is said: “The abased amongst you, He shall exalt; and they that are exalted, He shall abase.” And likewise, He hath revealed in the Qur’án: “And We desire to show favour to those who were brought low in the land, and to make them spiritual leaders among men, and to make of them Our heirs.” 21 It hath been witnessed in this day how many of the divines, owing to their rejection of the Truth, have fallen into, and abide within, the uttermost depths of ignorance, and whose names have been effaced from the scroll of the glorious and learned. And how many of the ignorant who, by reason of their acceptance of the Faith, have soared aloft and attained the high summit of knowledge, and whose names have been inscribed by the Pen of Power upon the Tablet of divine Knowledge. Thus,“What He pleaseth will God abrogate or confirm: for with Him is the Source of Revelation.” 22 Therefore, it hath been said: “To seek evidence, when the Proof hath been established is but an unseemly act, and to be busied with the pursuit of knowledge when the Object of all learning hath been attained is truly blameworthy.” Say O people of the earth! Behold this flamelike Youth that speedeth across the limitless profound of the Spirit, heralding unto you the tidings: “Lo: the Lamp of God is shining,” and summoning you to heed His Cause which, though hidden beneath the veils of ancient splendour, shineth in the land of ‘Iráq above the day-spring of eternal holiness." Unquote
Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 121-160

The hint number 22* gives reference of verse of Qur’án 13:41, which is incorrect. The Quran correct verse of Quran is 13:39:
AYAH ar-Ra`d 13:39 يَمْحُو اللَّهُ مَا يَشَاءُ وَيُثْبِتُ وَعِندَهُ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ

Sher Ali Translation:
"ALLAH effaces and establishes what HE wills, and with HIM is the source of all commandments."
ar-Ra`d 13:39
This needs to be corrected.

Regards
______________
*It is hint #111 , Qur’án 13:41. ↩ in another English translation of Iqan by Shoghi Effendi.

Thank you for being so very observant!

Thank you very much for picking that up. I will pass it on.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I quote from Iqan:
"This station is also one of the signs of the Day of Revelation; even as it is said: “The abased amongst you, He shall exalt; and they that are exalted, He shall abase.” And likewise, He hath revealed in the Qur’án: “And We desire to show favour to those who were brought low in the land, and to make them spiritual leaders among men, and to make of them Our heirs.” 21 It hath been witnessed in this day how many of the divines, owing to their rejection of the Truth, have fallen into, and abide within, the uttermost depths of ignorance, and whose names have been effaced from the scroll of the glorious and learned. And how many of the ignorant who, by reason of their acceptance of the Faith, have soared aloft and attained the high summit of knowledge, and whose names have been inscribed by the Pen of Power upon the Tablet of divine Knowledge. Thus,“What He pleaseth will God abrogate or confirm: for with Him is the Source of Revelation.” 22 Therefore, it hath been said: “To seek evidence, when the Proof hath been established is but an unseemly act, and to be busied with the pursuit of knowledge when the Object of all learning hath been attained is truly blameworthy.” Say O people of the earth! Behold this flamelike Youth that speedeth across the limitless profound of the Spirit, heralding unto you the tidings: “Lo: the Lamp of God is shining,” and summoning you to heed His Cause which, though hidden beneath the veils of ancient splendour, shineth in the land of ‘Iráq above the day-spring of eternal holiness." Unquote
Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 121-160

The hint number 22* gives reference of verse of Qur’án 13:41, which is incorrect. The Quran correct verse of Quran is 13:39:
AYAH ar-Ra`d 13:39 يَمْحُو اللَّهُ مَا يَشَاءُ وَيُثْبِتُ وَعِندَهُ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ

Sher Ali Translation:
"ALLAH effaces and establishes what HE wills, and with HIM is the source of all commandments."
ar-Ra`d 13:39
This needs to be corrected.

Regards
______________
*It is hint #111 , Qur’án 13:41. ↩ in another English translation of Iqan by Shoghi Effendi.

I think the reason that verse number is different from most Quran numbering, is because, the Rodwell Translation was numbered a little differently in older versions. He had in some cases, had combined 2 verses, into one verse.

 

[paarsurrey]

I enjoy very much our discussion and please feel very welcome to ask anything.

I observe that a verse of Quran has been incorrectly translated by Shoghí Effendí:

Qur’án 55:5. [ Back To Reference] incorrect translation done in Iqan.

Even as He saith : “Verily, the sun and the moon are both condemned to the torment of infernal fire.”24
Arabic Text of the verse is:
اَلشَّمۡسُ وَ الۡقَمَرُ بِحُسۡبَانٍ
Correct translations:
The sun and the moon run their courses according to a fixed reckoning.

Edward Henry Palmer:
The sun and the moon have their appointed time;
George Sale
The sun and the moon run their courses according to a certain rule:
John Medows Rodwell
The Sun and the Moon have each their times,
N J Dawood (2014)
The sun and the moon pursue their ordered course.
ar-Rahman 55:5

This needs to be corrected, please.
Regards

 

[loverofhumanity]

I observe that a verse of Quran has been incorrectly translated by Shoghí Effendí:

Qur’án 55:5. [ Back To Reference] incorrect translation done in Iqan.

Even as He saith : “Verily, the sun and the moon are both condemned to the torment of infernal fire.”24
Arabic Text of the verse is:
اَلشَّمۡسُ وَ الۡقَمَرُ بِحُسۡبَانٍ
Correct translations:
The sun and the moon run their courses according to a fixed reckoning.

Edward Henry Palmer:
The sun and the moon have their appointed time;
George Sale
The sun and the moon run their courses according to a certain rule:
John Medows Rodwell
The Sun and the Moon have each their times,
N J Dawood (2014)
The sun and the moon pursue their ordered course.
ar-Rahman 55:5

This needs to be corrected, please.
Regards

Thank you pasrsurrey. This is what I found..

Even as He saith: "Verily, the sun and the moon are both condemned to the torment of infernal fire. 179 179.

This verse (Súrah 55, The Merciful, verse 5) has been interpreted differently by the Sunni and Shí‘ah commentators of the Qur’án.

The Shí‘ah sources present this verse as: "Verily, the sun and the moon are both condemned to the torment of infernal fire.”

Sunnis, and English translations by non-Shí‘ah translators, present this verse as:

“The Sun and the Moon have each their times,” (The Qur’án, Rodwell tr)

“The sun and the moon are made punctual.” (The Qur’án, Pickthall tr)

“The sun and the moon follow courses (exactly) computed;” (The Qur’án, Yusuf Ali tr)

The operating word is the Arabic word “Husbán,” which means Hell, and comes from the root of “Hesáb,” which means calculation. Those that considered the sun and moon mentioned in this verse as the physical sun and moon, interpreted it to mean that the sun and moon are in a regulated or calculated course. However, some of the commentators have, based on the Shí‘ah traditions, considered the “Husbán” as Hell and Sun and Moon as certain people who had high stations among the people of their time, but were condemned to the torment of Hell. (Self Study notes for the Kitab-i-Iqan)

So the Shiahs considered this verse as condemnation of the Caliphs for seizing power instead of handing it over to Ali.

Again, the various sects have a very different interpretation and translation of the Quran. Hope this helps.

 

[lukethethird]

Bahaullah has revealed!
The issue facing God believers is that they are prone to believe this sort of thing.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Bahaullah has revealed!
The issue facing God believers is that they are prone to believe this sort of thing.

All praise be to Allah (God) for that.

Regards Tony

 

[paarsurrey]

Thank you pasrsurrey. This is what I found..

Even as He saith: "Verily, the sun and the moon are both condemned to the torment of infernal fire. 179 179.

This verse (Súrah 55, The Merciful, verse 5) has been interpreted differently by the Sunni and Shí‘ah commentators of the Qur’án.

The Shí‘ah sources present this verse as: "Verily, the sun and the moon are both condemned to the torment of infernal fire.”

Sunnis, and English translations by non-Shí‘ah translators, present this verse as:

“The Sun and the Moon have each their times,” (The Qur’án, Rodwell tr)

“The sun and the moon are made punctual.” (The Qur’án, Pickthall tr)

“The sun and the moon follow courses (exactly) computed;” (The Qur’án, Yusuf Ali tr)

The operating word is the Arabic word “Husbán,” which means Hell, and comes from the root of “Hesáb,” which means calculation. Those that considered the sun and moon mentioned in this verse as the physical sun and moon, interpreted it to mean that the sun and moon are in a regulated or calculated course. However, some of the commentators have, based on the Shí‘ah traditions, considered the “Husbán” as Hell and Sun and Moon as certain people who had high stations among the people of their time, but were condemned to the torment of Hell. (Self Study notes for the Kitab-i-Iqan)

So the Shiahs considered this verse as condemnation of the Caliphs for seizing power instead of handing it over to Ali.

Again, the various sects have a very different interpretation and translation of the Quran. Hope this helps.

"Arabic word “Husbán,” which means Hell"

1. Please quote from a reputed Arabic lexicon for "Husban" meaning hell.
2. IslamAwakened is a site which gives 50+ translations of Quran rendered by Shia/Sunni/Non-Muslim ect. scholars, none of them agrees with the translation of "Husban" as Hell.
3. When Shoghi Effindi was following Rodwell translation, then why leave it ?

Regards

 

[loverofhumanity]

"Arabic word “Husbán,” which means Hell"

1. Please quote from a reputed Arabic lexicon for "Husban" meaning hell.
2. IslamAwakened* is a site which gives 50+ translations** of Quran rendered by Shia/Sunni/Non-Muslim ect. scholars, none of them agrees with the translation of "Husban" as Hell.
3. When Shoghi Effindi was following Rodwell translation, then why leave it ?

Regards

Continued in next post, please

This interpretation from Baha’u’llah is based upon a Shiah tradition..

The interpretation referred to here by Bahá’u’lláh is based on a tradition related to one of the Shí‘ah Imáms (Imám Riḍá) who interpreted “Husbán” as the divine torment, and Sun and Moon as some of the important figures and leaders in early Islamic history, who, as a result of their opposition to Islam, would be condemned to the torment of Hell. (Source: ‘Abdu’l-Ḥamíd Ishráq-Khávari, Qámus-i-Íqán, Vol. 4, p. 1480)

Qamus-i Iqan, Volumes 1-4

 

[paarsurrey]

"Arabic word “Husbán,” which means Hell"

1. Please quote from a reputed Arabic lexicon for "Husban" meaning hell.
2. IslamAwakened* is a site which gives 50+ translations** of Quran rendered by Shia/Sunni/Non-Muslim ect. scholars, none of them agrees with the translation of "Husban" as Hell.
3. When Shoghi Effindi was following Rodwell translation, then why leave it ?

Regards

This interpretation from Baha’u’llah is based upon a Shiah tradition..

The interpretation referred to here by Bahá’u’lláh is based on a tradition related to one of the Shí‘ah Imáms (Imám Riḍá) who interpreted “Husbán” as the divine torment, and Sun and Moon as some of the important figures and leaders in early Islamic history, who, as a result of their opposition to Islam, would be condemned to the torment of Hell. (Source: ‘Abdu’l-Ḥamíd Ishráq-Khávari, Qámus-i-Íqán, Vol. 4, p. 1480)

Qamus-i Iqan, Volumes 1-4

Please quote from a renowned Lexicon for the meaning of the word "Husban" and its usage from Arabic poetry and or prose.

It is Quran that judges* every tradition, Quran is not judged by any tradition whether Sunni or Shia or whatever etc.

Regards
_____________
*AYAH at-Tariq 86:13
Arabic

إِنَّهُ لَقَوْلٌ فَصْلٌ
Transliteration

Innahu laqawlun faslun
Transliteration-2 innahu laqawlun faṣlun
Literal
(Word by Word) Indeed, it (is) surely a Word decisive,
Non-Muslim and/or Orientalist works
Arthur John Arberry

surely it is a decisive word;
Edward Henry Palmer

Verily, it is indeed a distinguishing speech,
George Sale

Verily this is a discourse distinguishing good from evil;
John Medows Rodwell

That this Koran is a discriminating discourse,
N J Dawood (2014) this¹ is a discerning utterance,
at-Tariq 86:13

*Quran 7:186
فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيثٍ بَعْدَهُ يُؤْمِنُونَ
Literal
(Word by Word) So in what statement/story/hadith after this will they believe?

John Medows Rodwell

And in what other book will they believe who reject the Koran?
al-A`raf 7:185

 

[loverofhumanity]

Please quote from a renowned Lexicon for the meaning of the word "Husban" and its usage from Arabic poetry and or prose.

It is Quran that judges* every tradition, Quran is not judged by any tradition whether Sunni or Shia or whatever etc.

Regards
_____________
*AYAH at-Tariq 86:13
Arabic

إِنَّهُ لَقَوْلٌ فَصْلٌ
Transliteration

Innahu laqawlun faslun
Transliteration-2 innahu laqawlun faṣlun
Literal
(Word by Word) Indeed, it (is) surely a Word decisive,
Non-Muslim and/or Orientalist works
Arthur John Arberry

surely it is a decisive word;
Edward Henry Palmer

Verily, it is indeed a distinguishing speech,
George Sale

Verily this is a discourse distinguishing good from evil;
John Medows Rodwell

That this Koran is a discriminating discourse,
N J Dawood (2014) this¹ is a discerning utterance,
at-Tariq 86:13

*Quran 7:186
فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيثٍ بَعْدَهُ يُؤْمِنُونَ
Literal
(Word by Word) So in what statement/story/hadith after this will they believe?

John Medows Rodwell

And in what other book will they believe who reject the Koran?
al-A`raf 7:185

The Quran is the Word of God but what is not are the translators or scholars. They are just human and do not know the true meaning of the verses of the Quran. Only a Messenger Of God knows when a Sura is literal and when it has a figurative meaning Baha’u’llah, as a Manifestation of God has correctly applied a figurative meaning to this passage.

It doesn’t matter that 100,000 scholars interpret it literally all that matters is what is the meaning given by God and His Manifestation. In that case it is the only correct meaning and all other literal interpretations wrong.

None knoweth the interpretation thereof but God and they that are well-grounded in knowledge” (Q. 3/7).

And Baha’u’llah, as a Manifestation of God Who is the Voice of God stated the correct meaning of 55:5 which is figurative not literal. His interpretation is from God not tradition.

 

[paarsurrey]

The Quran is the Word of God but what is not are the translators or scholars. They are just human and do not know the true meaning of the verses of the Quran. Only a Messenger Of God knows when a Sura is literal and when it has a figurative meaning Baha’u’llah, as a Manifestation of God has correctly applied a figurative meaning to this passage.

It doesn’t matter that 100,000 scholars interpret it literally all that matters is what is the meaning given by God and His Manifestation. In that case it is the only correct meaning and all other literal interpretations wrong.

None knoweth the interpretation thereof but God and they that are well-grounded in knowledge” (Q. 3/7).

And Baha’u’llah, as a Manifestation of God Who is the Voice of God stated the correct meaning of 55:5 which is figurative not literal. His interpretation is from God not tradition.

1. Bahaullah did not claim in express,clear and unequivocal manner in Kitab-i-Iqan that he was a messenger/prophet of G-d. Did he, please? If yes, kindly quote from Kitab-i-Iqan in this connection, please.
2. The well grounded people are those:
   • who have studied/pondered over Quran intently from the context verses
   • as well as from other places in Quran
   • and not from elsewhere.

Sorry, we cannot accept hegemony of Bahaullah and or Shoghi Effendi* on Quran, unreasonably and haphazardly, please.

Regards

_____________
*Shogui Effendi did not quote the Quranic text in Arabic, he quoted the translation of Quran verses sometimes, if not most of the times, changing the Rodwell's translation he opted, capitalizing the initial letters of the words or uncapitalizing them against the norms.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

1. Bahaullah did not claim in express,clear and unequivocal manner in Kitab-i-Iqan that he was a messenger/prophet of G-d. Did he, please? If yes, kindly quote from Kitab-i-Iqan in this connection, please.
2. The well grounded people are those:
   • who have studied/pondered over Quran intently from the context verses
   • as well as from other places in Quran
   • and not from elsewhere.

Sorry, we cannot accept hegemony of Bahaullah and or Shoghi Effendi on Quran, unreasonably and haphazardly, please.

Regards

This question requires more knowledge than I have paarsurry. If @Sen McGlinn is around, he may be able to give more thoughts for an answer.

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

1. Bahaullah did not claim in express,clear and unequivocal manner in Kitab-i-Iqan that he was a messenger/prophet of G-d. Did he, please? If yes, kindly quote from Kitab-i-Iqan in this connection, please.
2. The well grounded people are those:
   • who have studied/pondered over Quran intently from the context verses
   • as well as from other places in Quran
   • and not from elsewhere.

Sorry, we cannot accept hegemony of Bahaullah and or Shoghi Effendi* on Quran, unreasonably and haphazardly, please.

Regards

_____________
*Shogui Effendi did not quote the Quranic text in Arabic, he quoted the translation of Quran verses sometimes, if not most of the times, changing the Rodwell's translation he opted, capitalizing the initial letters of the words or uncapitalizing them against the norms.

Prophet Muhammad also did not announce His Prophethood immediately but that doesn’t mean He wasn’t a Prophet at the time.

Baha’u’llah’s authority as a Manifestation of God began in 1852 but He did not announce it immediately. He was a Manifestation when the Iqan was revealed so it is to us Baha’is the Word of God. As a Manifestation He interprets as He pleases with full authority from God.

The Quran is not the last Book to be revealed to humanity. God will always send Words to us forever which is a firm promise in the Quran itself.

31:27 If all the trees on earth were pens and the ocean ˹were ink˺, refilled by seven other oceans, the Words of Allah would not be exhausted. Surely Allah is Almighty, All-Wise.

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey said: ↑

1. Bahaullah did not claim in express,clear and unequivocal manner in Kitab-i-Iqan that he was a messenger/prophet of G-d. Did he, please? If yes, kindly quote from Kitab-i-Iqan in this connection, please.
2. The well grounded people are those:
   • who have studied/pondered over Quran intently from the context verses
   • as well as from other places in Quran
   • and not from elsewhere.

Sorry, we cannot accept hegemony of Bahaullah and or Shoghi Effendi on Quran, unreasonably and haphazardly, please.

Regards

This question requires more knowledge than I have paarsurry. If @Sen McGlinn is around, he may be able to give more thoughts for an answer.

Regards Tony

Which question of the two, about Bahaullah's claim about messenger/prophet of G-d or about the well-grounded in knowledge people of Quran or both?
I am an open mind, I don't mind if @Sen McGlinn is around and joins the discussion.

Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Which question Regards

The one about the translation. Personally if a quran verse is quoted, we must be able to find translation that is correct.

If the understanding of a verse of the Quran is quoted from a tradition, then the tradition should be available.

The problem is we do not read or speak the source languages. It may be given.yoir academic abilities, that you may be able to answer hour own question. Why did Shoghi Effendi provide this translation. There will be an answer, or it will be shown to be an error.

Shoghi Effendi has suggested that he feels better translations may happen in the future.

Regards Tony

 

[paarsurrey]

The one about the translation. Personally if a quran verse is quoted, we must be able to find translation that is correct.

If the understanding of a verse of the Quran is quoted from a tradition, then the tradition should be available.

The problem is we do not read or speak the source languages. It may be given.yoir academic abilities, that you may be able to answer hour own question. Why did Shoghi Effendi provide this translation. There will be an answer, or it will be shown to be an error.

Shoghi Effendi has suggested that he feels better translations may happen in the future.

Regards Tony

"Shoghi Effendi has suggested that he feels better translations may happen in the future."

There were other translation also:

• The earliest known translation of the Qur'an into the English Language was The Alcoran of Mahomet in 1649 by Alexander Ross, chaplain to King Charles I. This, however, was a translation of the French translation L'Alcoran de Mahomet by the Sieur du Ryer, Lord of Malezair. L'Alcoran de Mahomet.[citation needed].

Ellison's photo-op reenactment of his ceremony with Thomas Jefferson's Quran, 4 January 2007

• Koran, commonly called the Alcoran of Mohammed, tr. into English immediately from the original Arabic; with explanatory notes, taken from the most approved commentators. To which is prefixed a preliminary discourse by George Sale London; Printed by C. Ackers... 1734. The first scholarly translation of the Qur'an based primarily on the Latin translation of Louis Maracci (1698).[1] George Sale's two-volume translation was to remain the most widely available English translation over the next 200 years, and is still in print today, with release of a recent 2009 edition[citation needed]. It was Third U.S. President Thomas Jefferson's hardcover copy, kept by the United States Library of Congress, of George Sale's translation that was used by House Representative Keith Ellison in his oath of office ceremony, upon first being elected in 2006 to the 110th United States Congress on 3 January 2007,[2] generating a first-ever controversy over the choice of scripture for such a ceremony.

The next major English translation of note was by John Rodwell, Rector of St. Ethelburga, London, released in 1861, entitled The Koran. It was soon followed in 1880 with a two-volume edition by E.H. Palmer, a Cambridge scholar, who was entrusted with the preparation of the new translation for Max Muller's Sacred Books of the East series[citation needed].
English translations of the Quran - Wikipedia
Now there are 50+ Quran translations available online @ IslamAwakened website, just a click away.
If Shoghi Effendi had kept the Arabic text of Quran intact, as did Bahaullah in Farsi Iqan and as did Arabic Iqan, and then given the translations and footnotes for every verse as to why he opted to change/disfigure the translation of Quran by even Rodwell, that would have been proper.
It creates hurdles in the way of a sincere search/research.
Is it to expect too much of an educated and resourceful community, please?
Sorry, if I hurt somebody's feelings, but we are having a friendly discussion, please. Right, please?

Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Is it to expect too much of an educated and resourceful community, please?
Sorry, if I hurt somebody's feelings, but we are having a friendly discussion, please. Right, please?
Regards

All Good Paarsurry, it is great you bring these issues up. Only when you do that can any error be fixed, or clarified.

I also meant to suggest that Shoghi Effendi suggested that His Translations of the Baha'i Writings may be reviewed in the future as well. He had a massive work load.

I hope someone with a sound knowledge of this can give an answer. I also would like to see a bit more than @loverofhumanity offered. I see some good points he made, but from an academjc standpoint, I also see this would be uncomfortable.

Regards Tony