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Featured Bahaullah has revealed!

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by paarsurrey, Mar 24, 2019.

  1. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    Definitely God can guide whomsoever He wills to the straight path. However a person who has not been guided will reject the truth. So it is with Baha’u’llah and the Abode Of Peace. It is the straight path spoken of by God to those who accept the truth of the Holy Quran and to those who reject it they reject the Quran as the Quran speaks only what is true and from God.

    If God says Baghdad is where people must turn to who are we to question God? We say ‘yes Alláh, I obey’ and then follow the path which God says is straight which is the path of Baha’u’llah in Baghdad.

    Otherwise to question Allah’s Words is the same as to burn our souls in hellfire.
     
  2. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    This means that Bahaullah revealed to the people
    It does not exclude that God revealed to Bahaullah what Bahaullah revealed to the people

    That's what we call Faith; some believe this and others don't ... Freedom of Religion
    You only know when you have first hand personal experience, otherwise you can believe

    If Bahaullah has revealed, I assume he had first hand experienced what he revealed
    Nowadays most are "internet revealers" ... my guess is that Bahaullah was "innernet revealer"
     
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  3. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    One gave a wrong reference. The verse of Quran is not 10:35 as mentioned by one but it is 10:25. Hence I could not locate it earlier.

    I understand that one referred to the following passage of Iqan:

    "188
    We seal Our theme with that which was formerly revealed unto Muḥammad that the seal thereof may shed the fragrance of that holy musk which leadeth men unto the Riḍván of unfading splendour. He said, and His Word is the truth:“And God calleth to the Abode of Peace; 11 and He guideth whom He will into the right way.” 12 [Page-175] “For them is an Abode of Peace with their Lord! and He shall be their Protector because of their works.” 13 This He hath revealed that His grace may encompass the world. Praise be to God, the Lord of all being!" Unquote
    Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 161-200


    Please let me know if the [Page-175] given in the above passage is of the original Farsi work of Iqan?
    The link I have of Farsi Iqan is without page numbers. Please give me the link of Farsi Iqan that has printed page numbers on its pages, and with corresponding page numbers of that in English, for easy comparison. Right, please?

    Regards
     
  4. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    Yes my apologies. I too later couldn’t find it so thank you for correcting me.

    This is all I can find now but I don’t know if the English corresponds exactly to the Farsi numbers but they might be close.

    Book of Certitude
     
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  5. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Thanks for providing the link. I think it somewhat corresponds to the Farsi Iqan. It is hand-written and therefore difficult to read though.
    I am easy reading from the one typed one. I will be thankful if one can find the typed Farsi Iqan with page numbers printed on it. The corresponding work with English Iqan, I can do myself.
    Please don't take that I am against Bahaism people. My discussions/debates are only for myself to find the truth not against anybody or any religion or no-religion.

    Regards
     
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  6. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    I enjoy very much our discussion and please feel very welcome to ask anything.
     
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  7. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    I find notes at the end of English Iqan, these are all 186 mostly and consist of references in numbers for which hint-numbers have been provided in the text of English Iqan, these are not there in the Farsi original.
    Does on know the name of the person who compiled these references, please?
    These reference are mostly about Quranic verses quoted by Bahaullah.
    I also want to know as to where-from the translation of Quranic verses have been provided in English Iqan. There are more than 40 online translations available online rendered by Muslims as well as non-Muslims.

    Regards
     
  8. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    The Book of Certitude and references was translated authoritatively by Shoghi Effendi the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith then. His English translation is the one we Bahá’ís all use.

    The English Quran translations were from Rodwell

    This link may help you. If you scroll down the page you will see all the Quranic verses used and then further down the page a complete table with passage numbers of the Quran.

    Hope this will help. Always you are most welcome.
     
  9. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    No link has been given in the post. Please provide the same.
    Regards
     
  10. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    Sincere apologies friend.

    Kitáb-i-Íqán and the Qur'an
     
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  11. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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  12. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    I have now realized that the Farsi Iqan, the hand-written one , its page numbers do not correspond with the page numbers given in the English Iqan. For instance:


    Passage 57 Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 41-80

    Iqan Farsi (Handwritten) page 44 https://www.h-net.org/~bahai/areprint/baha/G-L/I/iqan1893/iqn044.gif

    "He might enable them to attain the meads of heavenly delight, and delivering them, through the Salsabíl of renunciation, from the bewilderment of remoteness, cause them to enter [Page 55] the peaceful city of the divine presence. When Moses came unto Pharaoh and delivered unto him, as bidden by God, the divine Message, Pharaoh spoke insultingly saying: “Art thou not he that committed murder, and became an infidel?” Thus recounted the Lord of majesty as having been said by Pharaoh unto Moses: “What a deed is that which Thou hast done! Thou art one of the ungrateful. He said: ‘I did it indeed, and I was one of those who erred. And I fled from you when I feared you, but My Lord hath given Me wisdom, and hath made Me one of His Apostles.’” 20

    https://www.h-net.org/~bahai/areprint/baha/G-L/I/iqan1893/iqn044.gif

    The English Iqan gives page number 55 in the text but it corresponds with the page 44 of the handwritten Farsi Iqan.

    Further the references of the note number 20 gives verse of Qur’án as 26:19 [ Back To Reference] which in incorrect, the actual verse number of Quran is:
    upload_2019-3-29_12-14-26.png

    Verse (26:21) - English Translation
    Sahih International
    : So I fled from you when I feared you. Then my Lord granted me wisdom and prophethood and appointed me [as one] of the messengers.
    The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

    Iqan in English should have had the Arabic text of the Quran as did the Farsi Iqan or as did the Arabic Iqan following Bahaullah exactly, and then the English translation.
    Right, please?

    Regards
     
  13. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    I find that Shoghi Effendi translated Iqan, and also used translation of Quran by Rodwell, with his own agenda in mind and against the norms of the translation. For instance

    Quran verse 3:7 rendered by Rodwell:

    “He it is who hath sent down to thee "the Book." Some of its signs are of themselves perspicuous;-these are the basis4 of the Book-and others are figurative. But they whose hearts are given to err, follow its figures, craving discord, craving an interpretation; yet none knoweth its interpretation but God. And the stable in knowledge say, "We believe in it: it is all from our Lord." But none will bear this in mind, save men endued with understanding.”

    http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/2800/pg2800-images.html
    Shoghi Effendi disfigured it in Iqan thus:

    “None knoweth the interpretation thereof but God and they that are well-grounded in knowledge.” 13
    Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 201-220
    Again:

    “None knoweth the meaning thereof except God and them that are well-grounded in knowledge.” 15
    Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 3-41
    I don't know, why did Shoghi Effendi play with the translation of Rodwell, changing it here and there?

    Anybody, please.

    Regards
     
    #53 paarsurrey, Mar 29, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2019
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  14. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    Thank you so very, very much. I really enjoyed researching this and it took some time but it clearly shows that Baha’u’llah’s Interpretation is a Shia belief according to the Imams not Sunni based. Thank you for giving me the blessing of doing this research for you. God bless.

    Baha’u’llah’s translation of Sura 3:7 is according to Shi’ah traditions and the Imams. As you can see below this translation is almost identical to Baha’u’llah’s in the Book of Certitude further down this page. He says this refers to the Prophets of God and His interpretation is identical to the Imams.

    This website confirms also that God, Muhammad and the Imams were those who knew the meanings. But Baha’u’llah does not include Mullas or scholars in this.

    Part 3: Those who have the knowledge of Quran are the Imams

    “Then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. But none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge. (Sura Ale-Imran 3:7)”

    Excerpt from
    Hayat Al-Qulub Vol.3
    Allamah Muhammad Baqir Majlisi

    Book of Certitude

    “Even as thou dost witness how the people of the Qur’án, like unto the people of old, have allowed the words “Seal of the Prophets” to veil their eyes. And yet, they themselves testify to this verse: “None knoweth the interpretation thereof but God and they that are well-grounded in knowledge.” And when He Who is well-grounded in all knowledge, He Who is the Mother, the Soul, the Secret, and the Essence thereof, revealeth that which is the least contrary to their desire, they bitterly oppose Him and shamelessly deny Him.”

    The Kitáb-i-Íqán
    Bahá’u’lláh

    Baha’i Sources (Self Study Notes for the Kitab-i-QAN)

    Sunni Interpretation

    A majority of the Sunni interpreters of the Qur’án believed the period should be placed where it appears in the above cited translations, to maintain that only God could distinguish between the literal and figurative verses and understand the true meaning of the figurative ones.

    The 6th Imam’s Interpretation

    Imám Ja‘fár-i-Ṣádiq interprets that this verse should be read as “no one knoweth the meaning except God and those who are well-grounded in knowledge,” placing the period later in the verse to maintain that human beings with spiritual knowledge and perception are also capable of distinguishing between literal and figurative scripture.

    Baha’u’llah’s Interpretation

    In citing this verse, Bahá’u’lláh validates this interpretation of the Shí‘ah by placing the period after “those who are well-grounded in knowledge” to support the fact that those who are inspired and are grounded in divine knowledge can have the capability to understand the meaning of figurative verses in the holy books.
     
  15. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    Also here is a full Shiah translation of the Holy Quran with Arabic letters included.

    You will have to scroll to 3:7. The translation is almost identical to that of Baha’u’llah.

    https://zawaar786.files.wordpress.c...ith-english-translation-by-ali-quli-qarai.pdf

    3:7

    But no one knows its interpretation except Allah and those firmly grounded in knowledge;
     
  16. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    I quote from Iqan:
    "This station is also one of the signs of the Day of Revelation; even as it is said: “The abased amongst you, He shall exalt; and they that are exalted, He shall abase.” And likewise, He hath revealed in the Qur’án: “And We desire to show favour to those who were brought low in the land, and to make them spiritual leaders among men, and to make of them Our heirs.” 21 It hath been witnessed in this day how many of the divines, owing to their rejection of the Truth, have fallen into, and abide within, the uttermost depths of ignorance, and whose names have been effaced from the scroll of the glorious and learned. And how many of the ignorant who, by reason of their acceptance of the Faith, have soared aloft and attained the high summit of knowledge, and whose names have been inscribed by the Pen of Power upon the Tablet of divine Knowledge. Thus,“What He pleaseth will God abrogate or confirm: for with Him is the Source of Revelation.” 22 Therefore, it hath been said: “To seek evidence, when the Proof hath been established is but an unseemly act, and to be busied with the pursuit of knowledge when the Object of all learning hath been attained is truly blameworthy.” Say O people of the earth! Behold this flamelike Youth that speedeth across the limitless profound of the Spirit, heralding unto you the tidings: “Lo: the Lamp of God is shining,” and summoning you to heed His Cause which, though hidden beneath the veils of ancient splendour, shineth in the land of ‘Iráq above the day-spring of eternal holiness." Unquote
    Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 121-160

    The hint number 22* gives reference of verse of Qur’án 13:41, which is incorrect. The Quran correct verse of Quran is 13:39:
    AYAH ar-Ra`d 13:39 يَمْحُو اللَّهُ مَا يَشَاءُ وَيُثْبِتُ وَعِندَهُ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ

    Sher Ali Translation:
    "ALLAH effaces and establishes what HE wills, and with HIM is the source of all commandments."
    ar-Ra`d 13:39
    This needs to be corrected.

    Regards
    ______________
    *It is hint #
    111 , Qur’án 13:41. in another English translation of Iqan by Shoghi Effendi.







     
    #56 paarsurrey, Apr 9, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
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  17. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe you are correct. If it were God it would either be God has revealed or it has revealed to the B man by God.
     
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  18. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I have never seen anything foundational that would indicate that the B man heard from God.
     
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  19. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe a person can reeal his own thinking but then usually one thinks about what one has learned.
     
  20. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Thanks for a Christian view on the matter.
    Regards
     
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