Australia abuse, Archbishop rejects call to report confessions.

[Grandliseur]

why should this dominate the decision-making?

Sorry, I don't understand why anyone would take actions that have no effect. It would be like replacing a flat tire with a flat tire - an action only an insane person would make.

But, if that is what is desired, why should I care, it is not my church.

 

[England my lionheart]

Unfortunately, rather reprehensible Church representatives have. They told victims and their families that the scandal would damage the Church and to let them handle it. I hope our leaders are better mirrors of Christ's light now.

As for the topic, too bad. Nothing you can do will stop the confessional from being sacrosanct. No rule of man will change it.

In reality it is down to humans to deal with it and we should.

 

[England my lionheart]

Sorry, I don't understand why anyone would take actions that have no effect. It would be like replacing a flat tire with a flat tire - an action only an insane person would make.

But, if that is what is desired, why should I care, it is not my church.

Just being human should be enough to care Imo.

 

[Jumi]

Confession does not make a person immune from state prosecution last I looked.

But the ones who were confessed to have hidden the crimes and apparently often tried to protect the perpetrators to the detriment of the victims.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

You're truly ignorant about what God does and doesn't do, as even the church is in this case. While God may forgive repentant sinners, there is never ever an escape from his punishment of these serious crimes. Just like a parent may forgive a child, or a teenager, a serious wrong action, there is usually with responsible parents always a punishment that fits the crime. Then, the parent forgives once s/he is certain that the lesson has been learned.

Just to clarify, when I say "a consequence-free environment" I mean somewhere that won't result in them receiving punishment that we can see and understand like a prison sentence. I'll leave speculations as to what happens in any afterlife down to the individual believer. But just to clarify, the possibility of post-death punishment is by no means a reason to spare child molesters from punishment while they're shuffling around this mortal coil.

Atheists truly are an ignorant bunch about God. It begs the imagination how much nonsense is being spewed out by such about God.

Not sure why you're labelling me an atheist since

1. I believe in more gods than you do;
2. I don't necessarily doubt your god's existence - I just find him to be a reprehensible monster who is both massively over-hyped and unworthy of worship.

I think it might actually be a rule breach to mislabel someone's religious identity where it's clearly labelled. I'm curious about this; I'll go check.

That teaching is actually an apostate teaching condemned by scripture:

1 Timothy 4:1-3 4 However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, 2 by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; 3 forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth.​

​

The notion that anything is an "apostate teaching" really doesn't hold much weight with anybody who doesn't follow your orthodoxy.

Some people are deluded if they think that people shall confess to crimes if these are reported to the authorities. Everyone who did confess in the past to such things at a confessional shall now not do so any longer. It is a - duh! type of idea to believe that people will continue to do so.

Actually considering how important confessional is to Catholics, I think they'd keep going. If they don't confess they can't be forgiven, after all. Removing Catholic privilege from mandatory reporting laws will prevent the Church from keeping this problem in-house and sweeping it under the rug like it's been doing for decades. It will the legal onus for actually cleaning up at the Church's feet where it should always have been.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Whoever thought priestly celibacy was a good idea should be reincarnated in a new body specifically so they can be shot in the face for being so horrendously short-sighted.

Celibacy itself doesn't cause attraction to minors. I will say that claustrophobic seminary conditions of past have contributed to a certain arrested development among some, though, and attraction to minors in general seems to have to do with arrested development. I do think that the vow of lifelong celibacy does require some very deep thinking about before undergoing it. One must be in a certain mindset for their entire life in order to carry it out. You have to be very connected to God and internalize the notions of eternity and the transience of the flesh before taking such a vow. I can only get in such a mindset while in meditation and perhaps with alcohol, myself, speaking as a person with a high sex drive and addictive personality. It can be done, though.

 

[Grandliseur]

as to what happens in any afterlife down to the individual believer

There is no afterlife or punishment after death. All things happen while alive. I will let you see two scriptures for this:

Ps 62: 12 Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth lovingkindness; For thou renderest to every man according to his work.

Prvo 11:31 Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: How much more the wicked and the sinner!​

Death is destruction, the return to non-existence. God pays us all back while we live.

We all shall reap what we sow.

​

 

[sayak83]

But the ones who were confessed to have hidden the crimes and apparently often tried to protect the perpetrators to the detriment of the victims.

That is wrong and should not be allowed.

 

[Revoltingest]

Unfortunately, rather reprehensible Church representatives have. They told victims and their families that the scandal would damage the Church and to let them handle it. I hope our leaders are better mirrors of Christ's light now.

As for the topic, too bad. Nothing you can do will stop the confessional from being sacrosanct. No rule of man will change it.

Oh, but the rule of man can supersede sacrosanctity of confession.
If we prosecute & imprison those who cover up heinous crimes, this
will discourage those contemplating further enabling of criminal behavior.
Punishment cannot wait until the afterlife....it must happen in reality.
Preventing rape of children is more important than any religious belief.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Sorry, I don't understand why anyone would take actions that have no effect. It would be like replacing a flat tire with a flat tire - an action only an insane person would make.

But, if that is what is desired, why should I care, it is not my church.

Manadotory reporting rules have a significant effect overall.

And if the Catholic Church decides to flaut the law, the punishments it and its personnel incur are also an effect.

 

[Grandliseur]

Manadotory reporting rules have a significant effect overall.

And if the Catholic Church decides to flaut the law, the punishments it and its personnel incur are also an effect.

I don't get you. If the church has to report after a new law is set into effect, who will be moronic enough to confess at their confessional. Please stop the nonsense.

It is like having a flat and putting a new flat tire on to replace the flat one, there is no improvement. Are you guys in the same reality I am?! I don't think so.

 

[Revoltingest]

Celibacy itself doesn't cause attraction to minors. I will say that claustrophobic seminary conditions of past have contributed to a certain arrested development among some, though, and attraction to minors in general seems to have to do with arrested development. I do think that the vow of lifelong celibacy does require some very deep thinking about before undergoing it. One must be in a certain mindset for their entire life in order to carry it out. You have to be very connected to God and internalize the notions of eternity and the transience of the flesh before taking such a vow. I can only get in such a mindset while in meditation and perhaps with alcohol, myself, speaking as a person with a high sex drive and addictive personality. It can be done, though.

I can accept that celibacy doesn't cause attraction to minors. But if the priest
has sexual desires, without permission for a normal relationship, this can lead
to finding a secret outlet. This can lead to children because they can be
manipulated into silence more easily. This is a very dangerous situation.

 

[columbus]

I don't get you. If the church has to report after a new law is set into effect, who will be moronic enough to confess at their confessional. Please stop the nonsense.

The assumption you are making here is that it's more important for child abuser's freedom to confess with impunity be protected than their victims. Most Catholics wouldn't even agree, I believe.

There are undoubtedly lots, possibly a majority, who still feel that the "sanctity of the Seal of Confessions" must be protected. They believe that the priests can figure out a way to accomplish both. After all, the priest isn't required to issue absolution. But I am not one.
It's not like this is Scriptural or anything. It's a tradition going way way back. It's like celibate clergy. It's a human policy, and subject to change when change is warranted.
Which it is in My Not So Humble Opinion.

Tom

 

[columbus]

I can accept that celibacy doesn't cause attraction to minors. But if the priest
has sexual desires, without permission for a normal relationship, this can lead
to finding a secret outlet.

There's more too it than that.
A somewhat protected life that begins with a vow of celibacy will tend to attract a comparatively large number of people with sexual "issues" in the first place. Then add the layers of autonomy and authority that come with the collar, with a giant institution backing you up, and it's a recipe for certain kinds of sinful disaster.
Tom

 

[Grandliseur]

The assumption you are making here is that it's more important for child abuser's freedom to confess with impunity be protected than their victims.

You are wrong and you know it. If my car's engine is broken, replacing it with another broken one will do nothing. The 'fix' you are suggesting is idiotic. Forcing the confessional to confess to the authorities will simply make people stop going, and since it is not recorded as to who said what, at best it is hearsay.

You are irrational in your claims, and trying to make me say things I am not. Your claims are weird, and will fix nothing.

A somewhat protected life that begins with a vow of celibacy will tend to attract a comparatively large number of people with sexual "issues" in the first place. Then add the layers of autonomy and authority that come with the collar, with a giant institution backing you up, and it's a recipe for certain kinds of sinful disaster.

I already quoted in another post how this practice of the Catholic church is an apostate practice. So, this comment of yours, I agree with.

 

[Revoltingest]

You are wrong and you know it. If my car's engine is broken, replacing it with another broken one will do nothing. The 'fix' you are suggesting is idiotic.

You've a bad assumption there. People will often confess (eg, to cops),
even fully aware that it will lead to prosecution. And the church could
avoid trumpeting a discouraging message to child rapists.
If even one instance of sexually assault is thereby avoided, it's worthwhile.

Forcing the confessional to confess to the authorities will simply make people stop going, and since it is not recorded as to who said what, at best it is hearsay.

But it can lead to investigation & protection.

 

[PureX]

Think about this,the abuse committed by priests is well known, even priests use the confession, it's also well known that some of these priests have been doing it for years, go figure.

Yes, that is true. And OZ in particular has a vary sad history of rampant, institutional, kidnapping and sexual abuse of aboriginal children.

 

[David T]

A senior member of the Roman Catholic Church in Australia has rejected a key recommendation of a landmark inquiry into child sex abuse.

It said priests should report abuse confided to them, even in the secret context of the confessional.

But the archbishop of Melbourne said any priest who broke the seal of confession would be excommunicated.

This means they would cease to be a member of the Church and would no longer be allowed a Catholic funeral.

The Most Rev Denis Hart said a law requiring this of priests would undermine a central tenet of Catholicism, the sacredness of the confessional.

The seal of the confessional, or the relationship with God that's carried through the priest and with the person, is inviolable," he said.

In a statement, the Vatican said the report "deserved to be studied seriously".

The five-year inquiry's final report said institutions had "seriously failed" to protect children.
Source Church 'must keep' abuse confession seal

This I find discussting, how many children have continued to suffer because of this and how many paedophiles have been to confession and abused again.

interesting split between the laws of God and the laws of King!!!! So you are saying if you confess a broken law of the king in confessional then the priest is obliged to say something? It's a funny all or nothing problem. Then the laws of King determine laws of God. So what ever law of King is broken no matter who the king is, the church is obliged to report it? How about a group of small children being hidden from deportation? Someone confesses and the priest reports it. The children are deported They of course die. We could say bad law why did the priest report it.

BTW I am absolutely appalled by pedophilia as well so no defense of that. But I do want to show that this is a king church thingie regardless of how it is "believed" in secular terms. I really could care less about secular or religious "believe." Two idiots arguing to me which idiot is correct?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't get you.

That much is obvious.

If the church has to report after a new law is set into effect, who will be moronic enough to confess at their confessional. Please stop the nonsense.

I think most people would expect their priest to flaut the law, so I don't think it's reasonable to expect that people would stop confessing. Also, as I was getting at, I'd expect victims to make the priest aware of abuse in the confessional: for instance, a child might think they've "sinned" for having been in sexual contact with an adult, not knowing that what they experienced was criminal.

However, as I mentioned before, one way that this could all shake out would be if the Church decides to make it as rare as possible that a confessor has to choose between the law and Church rules, such as by being diligent about digging up and airing as many abuse allegations as possible before they're "protected" by the deal of confession, or doing their darnedest to make sure that no Catholic ever has abuse to confess. Admittedly, this is a best case scenario, but it could happen if the Church has the will for it without breaking any Church rules at all.

It is like having a flat and putting a new flat tire on to replace the flat one, there is no improvement. Are you guys in the same reality I am?! I don't think so.

Why do you say there would be no improvement? Even if a few complicit priests go to jail and a few dioceses get sued for their role in protecting abusers, that's an improvement over the status quo.

 

[England my lionheart]

Yes, that is true. And OZ in particular has a vary sad history of rampant, institutional, kidnapping and sexual abuse of aboriginal children.

True and sickening whoever the children are.