Australia abuse, Archbishop rejects call to report confessions.

[The Emperor of Mankind]

If priests take confession from someone who only thinks wrong thoughts, confidentiality is OK.
But if a priest hears of a crime, it should be reported.
No child should be fondled or f****d.
The church should do all in its power to prevent it, & see that the perps are prosecuted.
If the church fails at this, then they too should be prosecuted & imprisoned for life.

I strongly agree. By protecting priests, ensuring their victims' silence and by actively frustrating investigations by secular authorities, the Catholic Church makes itself an accomplice of every act of child abuse it has tried to cover up. The Church ought to be treated like a criminal organisation: with its high-ranking members subject to arrest & questioning, with charges being brought where appropriate; and the organisation's assets frozen or seized as proceeds of crime.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

If there is no confidentiality in the confession process, then people will simply not go to confession, including abusers.

People shouldn't be going to confession because they're confident nobody will find out what their sins are. That does seem rather contradictory to their wish to confess their sins in the first place.

 

[blü 2]

It said priests should report abuse confided to them, even in the secret context of the confessional.

But the archbishop of Melbourne said any priest who broke the seal of confession would be excommunicated.

I wouldn't be the first to suggest that the RCC refuse absolution to criminals unless and until they display contrition by honestly and completely confessing their crimes to the police.

Doubtless that would result in fewer confessions, but it would also put the RCC in a position with a justifiable morality. In particular the RCC must overcome its deep and ancient insistence on being a law unto itself, indifferent (because superior) to the criminal codes of the various nations it works in, That view has taken a lambasting around the world this century, in Ireland, Belgium and now Australia, to mention only a few, hugely damaging the RCC's prestige and, worse, their income,

(My admiration for the patience, thoroughness, focus and great scope of the Australian Royal Commission is enormous. In the short run it may, let's hope, change things. Whether that will be true of the long run is the question, and not just for Australia, and not just for the RCC.)

 

[Grandliseur]

Nonsense.
I am a cradle Catholic. I know the church really well. I have a lot more faith in Mother Church than that. This would be a tiny bump in the road compared to other run ins with the modern world.

One thing I can tell you is that, in the aftermath of the last decades of uncovering horrible abuses, Catholic attitudes towards church authority has taken a sea change. Especially on the subject of child abuse. Lots, probably most, would strongly support measures to combat such abuse within their communities.

I would predict that if the bishop excommunicated a priest, for reporting such abuse appropriately, the back lash from the rest of the church would be huge and do vastly more damage than requiring reports.

Keep in mind, this legislation doesn't cover all illegal activities, just child abuse.


Defense lawyers are required to oppose the government. Nothing like priests and confessions.

Tom

Thank you for letting me see a Catholic's point of view. You are probably better informed as to how it would affect your church than I.

 

[Grandliseur]

So a member of the Catholic church can molest a child, go to confession, be forgiven and all is well for the molester, but what about the victim?

I have already said this, once the confessional is broken, people will stop going to it. So, you cannot force this to happen except in the first few cases perhaps.
The problem with crime usually is that it needs to be discovered, reported, investigated by the proper authorities and acted upon according to the legal system - the reporting is usually done by the victim, or someone connected to the victim, eye witnesses, etc.

So, this desire to have people self report simply shall not work no matter who much we might desire for an easy way of finding abusers, and what not. For example, I am extremely unhappy about the robber cops and killer cops. If I began to kill these in some secret manner that they could not discover and make them into dog food which they deserve, I surely would not go about telling anyone about it. I would keep my mouth shut and keep on killing these vermin. But, I am old and am not a killer, so let others do what they want.

So, your "but what about the victim" - is met with a "how do you expect that to work"? It won't. "That's all folks."

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I have already said this, once the confessional is broken, people will stop going to it. So, you cannot force this to happen except in the first few cases perhaps.

And we all feel really sorry for the poor paedophiles who will lose their consequence-free option of obtaining forgiveness they don't deserve because they're not sorry enough to do anything meaningful like confess their crimes in anything other than a consequence-free environment.

The problem with crime usually is that it needs to be discovered, reported, investigated by the proper authorities and acted upon according to the legal system - the reporting is usually done by the victim, or someone connected to the victim, eye witnesses, etc.

And the problem with treating confessional as sacrosanct is that not only does it make gathering evidence all the more difficult, it prevents the blame from being placed squarely where it belongs: on the clergy who took confessionals of child molesters specifically, and the Church as an organisation for creating an environment where child molesters were actively enabled to indulge their sick habits because they got moved around before any accusations could come to light; as well as for creating an environment which prevents clergymen from fulfilling their sexual urges in a safe manner with consenting adults. Whoever thought priestly celibacy was a good idea should be reincarnated in a new body specifically so they can be shot in the face for being so horrendously short-sighted.

So, this desire to have people self report simply shall not work no matter who much we might desire for an easy way of finding abusers, and what not. For example, I am extremely unhappy about the robber cops and killer cops. If I began to kill these in some secret manner that they could not discover and make them into dog food which they deserve, I surely would not go about telling anyone about it. I would keep my mouth shut and keep on killing these vermin. But, I am old and am not a killer, so let others do what they want.

So, your "but what about the victim" - is met with a "how do you expect that to work"? It won't. "That's all folks."

Unfortunately that's really the only option we're left with if we continue to respect the belief that the confessional should remain sacrosanct. If people confess these days it can be difficult if not impossible to get the Catholic Church to release either a) the accused from whatever protective bull**** they decide to put him under; and b) any files or documents pertaining to an accusation that might reveal just who in the Church hierarchy knew about a clergyman's perverted dealings, how much they knew and how long it had been facilitated.

 

[sayak83]

Yes a safe place where people can share their misdeeds and get away with them, what's more important, the life of a child or the spiritual wellbeing of a pervert,no brained.

How do people get away with it by simply confessing in a church?

 

[Grandliseur]

for the poor paedophiles who will lose their consequence-free option of obtaining forgiveness they don't deserve because they're not sorry enough to do anything meaningful like confess their crimes in anything other than a consequence-free environment

You're truly ignorant about what God does and doesn't do, as even the church is in this case. While God may forgive repentant sinners, there is never ever an escape from his punishment of these serious crimes. Just like a parent may forgive a child, or a teenager, a serious wrong action, there is usually with responsible parents always a punishment that fits the crime. Then, the parent forgives once s/he is certain that the lesson has been learned.

Atheists truly are an ignorant bunch about God. It begs the imagination how much nonsense is being spewed out by such about God.

Whoever thought priestly celibacy was a good idea should be reincarnated in a new body specifically so they can be shot in the face for being so horrendously short-sighted.

That teaching is actually an apostate teaching condemned by scripture:

1 Timothy 4:1-3 4 However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, 2 by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; 3 forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth.​

Unfortunately that's really the only option we're left with if we continue to respect the belief that the confessional should remain sacrosanct.

Some people are deluded if they think that people shall confess to crimes if these are reported to the authorities. Everyone who did confess in the past to such things at a confessional shall now not do so any longer. It is a - duh! type of idea to believe that people will continue to do so.

​

 

[England my lionheart]

How do people get away with it by simply confessing in a church?

There are no consequence for their actions other than paying some token penance or punishment in a supposed afterlife in the big BBQ. The subject matter isn't mythology its reality and should be dealt with as such.

 

[sayak83]

There are no consequence for their actions other than paying some token penance or punishment in a supposed afterlife in the big BBQ. The subject matter isn't mythology its reality and should be dealt with as such.

Confession does not make a person immune from state prosecution last I looked.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

I have already said this, once the confessional is broken, people will stop going to it.

If the "confessional" can cover up and protect an offender from a violent crime, especially against a child, it should be broken!

 

[England my lionheart]

Confession does not make a person immune from state prosecution last I looked.

But it doesn't lead to a state prosecution does it and that's the crux of it.

 

[Grandliseur]

If the "confessional" can cover up and protect an offender from a violent crime, especially against a child, it should be broken!

How does it protect?

The JW judiciary tries to do this by discouraging people to go to the police and having their body do the excommunication, etc.. This is not acceptable. The Catholic church does not try to get the victim to do anything, if my understanding is correct; however, I am not Catholic, and could be misunderstanding how it works!

 

[sayak83]

But it doesn't lead to a state prosecution does it and that's the crux of it.

Why should it? The state has no business what people say in a church unless an abuse or crime is actively happening within church grounds or directly perpetrated by church officials. It's more like an embassy.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

How does it protect?

If someone tells someone else they committed a murder or rape, a violent crime, and the listening person does not report it, they are protecting the offending person.

Bottom line, a person who has knowledge of a crime, and doesn't report it, they are protecting the offender and just as guilty in my book.

 

[England my lionheart]

Why should it? The state has no business what people say in a church unless an abuse or crime is actively happening within church grounds or directly perpetrated by church officials. It's more like an embassy.

The church isn't above the law and is in breach of the law by association.

 

[Mister Emu]

The Catholic church does not try to get the victim to do anything

Unfortunately, rather reprehensible Church representatives have. They told victims and their families that the scandal would damage the Church and to let them handle it. I hope our leaders are better mirrors of Christ's light now.

As for the topic, too bad. Nothing you can do will stop the confessional from being sacrosanct. No rule of man will change it.

 

[Grandliseur]

If someone tells someone else they committed a murder or rape, a violent crime, and the listening person does not report it, they are protecting the offending person.

And you actually think that people will continue to confess such things when they know fully well that this will happen. You are quite the funny man I think.

 

[Grandliseur]

Unfortunately, rather reprehensible Church representatives have. They told victims and their families that the scandal would damage the Church and to let them handle it.

What is your source for this?

They are doing the same as the JWs to a certain degree ! Incredible.

The two churches are a mirror image of each other, one has the Pope, the other a Governing Body - both acting in God's place, both telling people to not to involve the police.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I have already said this, once the confessional is broken, people will stop going to it. So, you cannot force this to happen except in the first few cases perhaps.

So?

Say a mandatory reporting law leads people to choose not to go to confession; why should this dominate the decision-making?

The problem with crime usually is that it needs to be discovered, reported, investigated by the proper authorities and acted upon according to the legal system - the reporting is usually done by the victim, or someone connected to the victim, eye witnesses, etc.

So, this desire to have people self report simply shall not work no matter who much we might desire for an easy way of finding abusers, and what not. For example, I am extremely unhappy about the robber cops and killer cops. If I began to kill these in some secret manner that they could not discover and make them into dog food which they deserve, I surely would not go about telling anyone about it. I would keep my mouth shut and keep on killing these vermin. But, I am old and am not a killer, so let others do what they want.

So, your "but what about the victim" - is met with a "how do you expect that to work"? It won't. "That's all folks."

AFAIK, it would be often the case that the abuse comes to light when the victim confesses. It's very common for victims of sexual abuse to feel ashamed and that they've done something wrong themselves.