Athiests Only: What would suffice as proof of God?

[Dirty Penguin]

God's gonna have to open the heavens ans speak like he did in the bible and the whole world is gonna have to hear him all at the same time. That'll work for me. None of this (I can hear him but you can't)....(I can see him but you can't)...We have have enough crazy people and evangelist believing their god speaks to them.

In all reality I see all those bible stories as being borrowed folk tales from other cultures and passed around by word of mouth until people starting writing them down. As time went on some names and details were changed or added.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Currently it seems very likely that the idea of God is intrinsically linked with a very low probability of existing. If we removed his status as creator of the universe then we might begin to even the odds a little and I might start to contemplate agnosticism but that attribute seems to be very much a part of what we mean when we say "God".

Other logically contradictory attributes such as omnipotence and omniscience would have to go and those personal affectations such as being able to hear our prayers and omnibenevolence seem more a product of wishful thinking. Again all of these things work to make God's existence very improbable yet by removing them we don't really seem to have a god at all.

So I think scientific explanations for all of these things would be absolutely necessary for starters and then that might make agnosticism worth looking at. Additionally, having removed all of those difficulties I would have far less of a reason to be sceptical if I ever had a personal religious experience. I think that such an experience or even something larger and grander would be necessary in order to then make the jump from agnosticism to theism.

Obviously we would then need further evidence and explanations to move from theism to a particular religion but that is outside of what you asked.

I think maybe a simpler way to put it would be: The point when the explanatory power of "God did it" overcomes all rival theories would be the point that I become a theist.

Sorry for intruding.

You made some good points from a strictly one-god-did it-all point of view. In fact, for a long time I was stymied by the very problems you pose. However, when you add secondary causes after the manner of Plotinus and an expanded understanding of infinity into the mix, those points collapse.

This is why in other threads I stressed the difference between "omnipotent" and "omnificience."

 

[3.14]

After reading everybody's responses in Katzpurs thread. I thought this would be a natural follow up.

1. So how about it, what would suffice as proof of God?

2. Would any of the bilbical miracles convince you if you witnessed them?

if god said he was god to me he first must show me all of his creation and the full extent of his power

no exept maby if i was the one who came back to life after 3 days (but think i have better things to do then, like crawling out of a grave)

 

[crystalonyx]

"So how about it, what would suffice as proof of God?"

Whose god, the question is not well defined, even among Christian faIths there is considerable variation on what exactly god is. I don't think there is any evidence that could be presented that would prove to me that any god concept is true.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

In a certain sense, the effort to prove God's existence is the same as denying it.

 

[Alceste]

If every human culture in the history of mankind had come up with exactly the same notion of God, and if there were no deviations with regards to what God is or what God wants us to do, and if all the creation myths in the world were identical despite thousands of years of cultural isolation, that would go a long way to indicating there might be some truth to one particular God concept.

Otherwise it's just he said she said. Even if some miracle performing glowing old beardy fella came up and told me he was THE God I would be skeptical. "Where is Odin? Where is Kali? Where is Guan Yin? Where is Venus? Where is Pan?" I would ask. If he said he was real and they were not I would assume he was lying for his own advancement.

 

[gnostic]

Proving a god exist is, to me, only the 1st step. All it does is proving that he exist. I could believe in it if it was proven. Following and worshipping are totally different matter.

I could not worship god who I would consider evil. So he has to prove that he is not evil by being truthful.

Did he ordered genocide of women and children among the Amakelites (in Samuel)? Did he really make wager with Satan and cause the death of Job's children? Did sent the flood that kill countless infants and children?

If that being the case, I could not worship him, no matter how ALL-MIGHTY he is, because I would consider him to be evil, destructive god. He would not be worthy of worship.

And if he evade questions, like he did with Job, by bragging and bullying, then he certainly not worthy of worship, and I wouldn't want to have anything to do with him.

 

[Somkid]

I'm not sure anything could convince me at this point unless god actually showed up and fixed all of the problems in the world and gave us a big "I'm really friggin sorry" for sleeping on the job.

 

[Bishadi]

• So how about it, what would suffice as proof of God?

Gen 3:22</SPAN>
And Jehovah God saith, `Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; and now, lest he send forth his hand, and have taken also of the tree of life, and eaten, and lived to the age,' --

Gen 5:1
This [is] an account of the births of Adam: In the day of God's preparing man, in the likeness of God He hath made him [/quote]

And as you ‘created’ the question, we all just experienced the proof that mankind can at any moment ‘create life.’ That likeness of god is that we are within existence capable of knowing the experience of creation. Likewise good (supports life) and bad (loss to the common) can be of each choice we experience. It is these (good and bad) choices where life (to continue) and ‘evil’ (selfish isolation from existence) exists.

Good: supports life to continue. As Bad: is a loss to the common, both created by a choice.

2. Would any of the bilbical miracles convince you if you witnessed them?

Just did! You witnessed the miracle of creation as well the perfection of truth; real knowledge.

We are all ‘of’ god. Within ‘him’ as he is the total of all existence.

God is not a separate, on the thrown, kind of being. That is like the statue of Zeus or Apollo of the ancients; there is no physical description as god is all of it at the same time.

Tough to comprehend without the math but in my own fun way I enjoy the idea; ‘Get MET”

All mass, all energy, all time; the total: ONE!

And within that, we evolved! Knowledge evolves and you are tasting the ‘revealing’!

Feel it, know it and begin to ‘create’ your ever lasting life by what you do!

Old idea I used to keep in mind over the life of study; ‘ the truth lives in absolution!’

And if one line item of words (or math) is physically incorrect, then a recast must start over from the previous benchmark or even before that and so on. (in the beginning was light) which in the physical sciences, the paradigm shift will begin with ‘light’ is energy upon mass within time.

So when the above is mentioned be sure that the work has been done. When the final works (Understanding) are complete, then the children will be able to learn the truth in one pass (knowledge upon their head). Where what is learned is consistent with existence in reality versus the requisite usage of the term ‘phenomenon’ to describe life!

That is the promise to all mankind. That eventually a ‘revealing’ would occur. Not by magic, not by omnipotence nor by some magical (separate) god flying through the clouds but by a simple choice; to learn the truth and convey; a human being made that choice. Nothing magical about the truth! And the funny part is when people see reality and feel it inside, and know that it is true when experienced, that to isolate what is real and return to complacent ideals; its all their own choice and nothing in the world will change it until each become honest with themselves first!

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Well just call me the "Doubting Dirty Penguin" then....

The general interpertation from the big three religions is that the god of the bible/quran is "omnipotent", "omniscient" and "omnipresent".....He transcends space and time......

Let's stick with it for a moment....If this is true then truly his creation is doing just what he wants it to do...no matter what it does.

Eons before I was born this "god" knew exactly what I would do and what I wouldn't do. Every move I make or thought I had or have he already knew it. So where is this "free will"? Is it something we tell ourselves we have because we lack the ability to know what's next?

The idea of a god with these attributes and abilities....to create man only to punish that which he created he though he already knew what his creation would do to me is ludacris that a god even exist.

 

[smidget]

I can't really imagine anything that could be quite sufficient as proof of a god - there's HUGE claims that seem utterly illogical, and I can't see any thing at all suggesting that the supernatural exists. For a start, I think it's pretty unlikely that there is anything but that with a physical basis, which kind of makes the normal way of thinking of gods etc hard.

As for miracles? I'd want to look for a scientific answer to what was happening, a real answer.

TBH, I'd be more ammenable to being converted to believe in fairies etc - their claims are much less OTT...

 

[Phasmid]

After reading everybody's responses in Katzpurs thread. I thought this would be a natural follow up.

1. So how about it, what would suffice as proof of God?

Him saying, "Hi, Craig, how's it going? Listen, Jesus is my son, so... go with Christ".

There may be a god, but how should I know which, if any, religion portrays him correctly?

2. Would any of the bilbical miracles convince you if you witnessed them?

I think it would have to be more personal... at least for me. All kinds of tricks are possible today. I'm not impressed with acts by David Blane (SP?) simply because I know they're tricks. The same attitude would be in my mind if a preacher from a far away town came here and started performing "miracles".

 

[Tiberius]

A passage in the Bible that says:

"On january 1, in the year 2009 AD, I God will move the mountain which is called Mount Everest at that time from its location in the Himalayas to the Australian outback. I will leave it there for precisely one day and then return it to the place that I took it from. I will do this to show that I exist."

And then, if this actually happened, I would view it as very strong evidence that God exists.

Not proof, because there could be aliens using advanced technology to do it. But advanced aliens doing that particular thing at that particular time is highly unlikely.

 

[Willamena]

So, self-fulfilled prophecy is proof of God?

 

[UnTheist]

I don't think anything will, except for a personal experience

 

[tkdrocks]

A passage in the Bible that says:

"On january 1, in the year 2009 AD, I God will move the mountain which is called Mount Everest at that time from its location in the Himalayas to the Australian outback. I will leave it there for precisely one day and then return it to the place that I took it from. I will do this to show that I exist."

And then, if this actually happened, I would view it as very strong evidence that God exists.

Not proof, because there could be aliens using advanced technology to do it. But advanced aliens doing that particular thing at that particular time is highly unlikely.

That is pretty good as it would show something very specific and probably impossible to do by humans.

I really would not have a problem if it were proven that God existed, my problem would be if the Judeo-Christian God existed.

Let's see what would it take for me to believe that one ... Ah I know. Scientists look through our most powerful radio telescope and see a sign in deep space, thousand of light years away that says,

"Billy Graham is right, accept Jesus or go to hell!"

That would get my attention.:run:

 

[Kungfuzed]

After reading everybody's responses in Katzpurs thread. I thought this would be a natural follow up.

1. So how about it, what would suffice as proof of God?

2. Would any of the bilbical miracles convince you if you witnessed them?

Depends on what god is or which god you're referring to. A golden calf can be touched, seen, and weighed. A volcano can destroy your village. The sun can bring life to the whole earth. God is just a term for what you worship.

 

[logician]

One has to define what the term "god" means before one can begin to accept proof of such a concept. What's interesting is that billions accept the stories of a supposed man that lived on earth 2000 years ago as being a god w/o independant historical verification as being sufficient proof of a god - would anyone do that today?

 

[little_monkey]

After reading everybody's responses in Katzpurs thread. I thought this would be a natural follow up.

1. So how about it, what would suffice as proof of God?

2. Would any of the bilbical miracles convince you if you witnessed them?

1. Showing up, for instance, at the UN, in front of cameras for the eyes of the world to see.

2. Chris Angels does a better job than Jesus.

 

[Big_TJ]

1. Showing up, for instance, at the UN, in front of cameras for the eyes of the world to see.

2. Chris Angels does a better job than Jesus.

That still would not help. . . even the Christians would reject that "proof".