Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Secret Chief]

I got curious whoops

Yes that's how it starts...

 

[Spirit of Light]

Yes that's how it starts...

Oh crap

 

[Mock Turtle]

1. Because not everyone wants to believe in God
2. Because not everyone uses the capacity they have to make an effort to believe in God.

Do you assume all atheists want to believe in God?
Do you want to believe in God?

Do you not see that want/desire is a problem as to ascertaining truth - rather than an impartial assessment of any evidence? Such that many have sought for evidence and found it lacking.

Do unto others the Golden Rule?

The "Golden Rule" was quoted by Jesus of Nazareth during his Sermon on the Mount and described by him as the second great commandment. The common English phrasing is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

Golden Rule - Wikipedia

Confucius had such in the 6th or 7th century BC. Think he dreamed this up? It was most likely in existence long before then as well. So who should claim it?

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you not see that want/desire is a problem as to ascertaining truth - rather than an impartial assessment of any evidence? Such that many have sought for evidence and found it lacking.

Yes, I can see how that could be a problem but the flip side of that is if you don't want to believe in God you won't do what it takes to search for evidence for God. You won't even bother. I mean since I don't want a new car I am never going shopping for a new car.

Confucius had such in the 6th or 7th century BC. Think he dreamed this up? It was most likely in existence long before then as well. So who should claim it?

That's true, but Christians will claim it for Jesus anyway, just as they claim everything is because of Jesus.

 

[Earthtank]

Hello, I'm new to online forums. I chose this one specifically because I think it is very thought provoking. I love understanding and questioning different religious beliefs. I hope to have a debate that is robust, intriguing, and intellectually honest. I'm happy to debate anyone from any religious discipline and educational background. I currently do not have anyone to debate. I'll edit my title post, if possible, once the affirmative position has been occupied. Thanks in advance to anyone who will agree to debate. I'm ready to be convinced. Are you?

The fact that you are simply looking to debate anyone about any religion proves you are not really here to debate. You are only here to try and be right and and "hear" (type) yourself speak, which is not the point of a debate

 

[infrabenji]

The fact that you are simply looking to debate anyone about any religion proves you are not really here to debate. You are only here to try and be right and and "hear" (type) yourself speak, which is not the point of a debate

Thanks for sharing that. I'm happy to have discourse with anyone from any background because I like to learn about the many different beliefs and/or doctrines people hold. Pretty wild to assume I only want to hear myself speak without having even engaged in a dialogue with me. Of course, your not the first person to levy this accusation against me. I'm not sure what drives some people to assume I have an ulterior motive outside my initial statement? I've thought about changing the title of the thread but this thread has been going for a while and a lot of people are having debates independent of me on it. I'm not sure what changing the title would do, if anything. I can only assume as well that you would still levy the accusation against me because, based on my experience with you so far, your only interest is to make accusations and would do so regardless of the title of the thread. If you want to start over I'm actually a pretty laid back guy who doesn't take this overly serious (most of the time) and doesn't hold grudges. If you want to debate or have a discussion I'd be happy to oblige. A little applicable background about myself. I was on the debate team in high school and college and have 2 undergraduate degrees in religion and philosophy, a bachelors in theology, and am currently studying law. I also work full time under contract and am the senior consultant for a national health insurance provider. My life is rad and I think I'm pretty rad so why come at me unnecessarily? I am as stated always interested in meeting new people and finding out more about their beliefs. Why not tell me about your beliefs and any background you feel is relevant and we can go from there. If not, no worries. There are lots of people from many different backgrounds on this thread that love to debate.

 

[Trailblazer]

The fact that you are simply looking to debate anyone about any religion proves you are not really here to debate. You are only here to try and be right and and "hear" (type) yourself speak, which is not the point of a debate

With all due respect, I do not think that infrabenji started this thread to debate and win, even though he said he was looking for a debate in the OP. From what I have seen he is just a sincere seeker looking to learn from religious believers.

 

[Earthtank]

With all due respect, I do not think that infrabenji started this thread to debate and win, even though he said he was looking for a debate in the OP. From what I have seen he is just a sincere seeker looking to learn from religious believers.

A person looking to learn would have said something along the lines of "hey I have all these questions please answer so I can learn" not, looking to debate to see if I am convinced. And the title says" Atheist" not sincere seeker.

 

[Trailblazer]

A person looking to learn would have said something along the lines of "hey I have all these questions please answer so I can learn" not, looking to debate to see if I am convinced. And the title says" Atheist" not sincere seeker.

Have you read all the posts he posted on this thread? It is a very long thread. People can and do change their original intentions during a long discussion.

 

[Trailblazer]

And the title says" Atheist" not sincere seeker.

Why can't an atheist be a sincere seeker?

 

[Trailblazer]

First, shall we spell out your statement?
"There are a lot of "Additional Truths" in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism and other religions."
Will you please provide one or two 'additional truths' ...
1. In your religion.
2. In Christianity.

Thanks.

Before I proceed, I would like to clarify something very important. When I said "There are a lot of "Additional Truths" in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism and other religions." I was thinking of teachings in those religions, not spiritual truths. Every new Messenger of God brings new teachings, teachings that were not taught in the previous religions. However, the first part of the Religion of God which refers to spiritual truth is the same in every religion. In the following passage, the Law of God refers to the divinely revealed religion of God. The spiritual message (spiritual virtues and divine qualities) are the same in all the great world religions:

“the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things—that is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá’u’lláh, and which lasts and is established in all the prophetic cycles. It will never be abrogated, for it is spiritual and not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen......

These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, will never be abolished; nay, they will last and remain established for ever and ever. These virtues of humanity will be renewed in each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle the spiritual Law of God—that is to say, the human virtues—disappears, and only the form subsists.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 47-48

The second part of the Religion of God which refers to material things is different in each religion. It changes in each prophetic cycle to accommodate the needs of the times.

“The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence, theft and injuries—this part of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is modified and altered in each prophetic cycle in accordance with the necessities of the times.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 48

Regarding the second part of religion that refers to the material world, it is the social teachings that are *new* and different in every new religious cycle. The following social teachings are new teachings brought by Baha'u'llah.

The Main Baha’i Teachings
The Baha’i teachings focus on the soul’s relationship with the eternal, unknowable essence of God, and recommend daily prayer and meditation to everyone. Baha’is believe that the human spirit lives eternally, and so endeavor to illumine their souls with spiritual attributes — kindness, generosity, integrity, truthfulness, humility, and selfless service to others.

The Baha’i Faith provides the means for peace and tranquility through a progressive set of social teachings:

· Independent Investigation of Truth
· Elimination of Prejudice of Every Kind
· The Oneness of Humanity
· One Essential Foundation for All Religions
· Religion Should Cause Love, Affection, and Joy
· The Harmony of Science and Religion
· A Universal Auxiliary Language
· Universal Compulsory Education
· Gender Equality
· Establishing a World Parliament
· The Abolition of the Extremes of Wealth and Poverty
· The Non-Involvement of Religion With Politics
· Human Rights for All

These fundamental Baha’i principles call for a complete restructuring of humanity’s priorities — from material to spiritual, from exclusive to inclusive, and from divisiveness to unity.

What Is the Baha'i Faith?

 

[Trailblazer]

I want to believe in the truth.

If the evidence showed that "God exists" was the truth, then yes, I would believe.

Same here, so I guess you and I are on the same page.

I want to believe in the truth and since I believe that I have "the evidence" that God exists that is why I believe in God.

 

[Tiberius]

That depends upon what claims D, E and F are.

Claims that are not verifiable.

Claims A, B and C are claims like "Mr B really existed."

Claims D, E and F are claims like, "He was a messenger from God."

What is the difference between Jesus became God and God became Jesus? Think about it. If God became Jesus then Jesus became God.

What is the difference between "The wine became vinegar" and "the vinegar became wine"?

A becomes B is a different thing to B becomes A. Different start point and a different end point.

No, NOT according to the Bible. Absolutely NOT. God did not become Jesus according to the Bible, only according to Christianity's misinterpretation of the Bible and the ensuing false doctrines of the Church.

No, that is according to your opinion.

That's what I said. Jesus was a Manifestation of God so God manifested Himself in Jesus.

Two different things.

There was a time when David Bowie and Tilda Swinton went out dressed as each other. David appeared as Tilda, and that was very different to Tilda appearing as David.

So, not all Christians believe that the physical body of Jesus literally rose from the dead.

So what? You think that bolsters your point? It does not. If you are going to claim that the fact there are other people who agree with you makes your point more likely, then the fact that the vast majority of Christians DISAGREE with you renders it invalid. And if you are going to accuse me of using the argument from popularity, then I'll point out you were the one who thought it was valid enough to claim that your point was supported by having other people agreeing with you in the first place.

How does that what Baha'is believe about Jesus being a Manifestation of God support MY Baha'i beliefs?

Because it supports Bahai beliefs.

This is straight out of the Bible and it says that Jesus was a Manifestation of God.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world,
received up into glory.

To say that A manifests as B literally means A becomes B.

NOWHERE in the Bible does it say that God became Jesus. NOWHERE. Besides that, nowhere did Jesus EVER claim to be God.

I have pointed out where Jesus did. All you can do is claim that in your opinion that verse doesn't count and present your alternative interpretation. But you have no evidence at all that your interpretation is any more valid than mine.

If you care to know the truth, I suggest you watch this video because the interviewee was a Christian minister before he became a Muslim. This has nothing to do with the Baha'i Faith.

Oh look, someone cherry picking the bits of the Bible they can use to support their claim...

 

[Earthtank]

Have you read all the posts he posted on this thread? It is a very long thread. People can and do change their original intentions during a long discussion.

No, I did not read through 53 pages of replies lol. I replied to the original post. Yes, they can change their mind over te course of 53 pages

Why can't an atheist be a sincere seeker?

Because if he was a sincere seeker he would not be an atheist. An agnostic or non theist would fit that description.

 

[Trailblazer]

Because if he was a sincere seeker he would not be an atheist. An agnostic or non theist would fit that description.

That's true if you are thinking of a hard atheist, but many atheists are agnostic atheists who say they would believe in God if there was evidence for God's existence.

 

[infrabenji]

No, I did not read through 53 pages of replies lol. I replied to the original post. Yes, they can change their mind over te course of 53 pages

Because if he was a sincere seeker he would not be an atheist. An agnostic or non theist would fit that description.

@Earthtank give it up. You clearly have no position other than misrepresenting mine. I love debating. It's been a passion of mine since my school days. I am definitionally an atheist. You've made no attempt to know me. I have 50 pages of discourse and half a dozen other threads that have shown people who I am and what I'm about. All you can do that we've seen is talk trash on someone else's thread. I've already explained why I haven't changed the title. Why complain about it to someone else? You think you're going to convince people who know me I'm something other than what I say I am? Either man up and debate or quit whining and go home. I have a feeling it's just going to be easier to put you on ignore.

 

[rational experiences]

The situation in life today we need atheists challenge as much as religious science warnings.

Reason if men of science claim they personally are researching God for God none of you seem to realise the conscious battle being waged.

An atheist who lives loves is kind caring says the challenge where is your God for human safety too.

No point in just claiming you will never find God because I say so.

The status God and his meanings taught by humans hence have to be quantified by meaning and purpose of the teaching.

Historic it was because men in science first theories that there was no God when God in human science was qualified as planet earths created form.

The status I am the spiritual being making spiritual choices for spiritual humanity needs no argument. It is human aware as a status. Human lived human owned.

What balances in life human needed to be re established. Humanity itself lost to its mind conscious irradiated wandering. An earth effect.

My friend reminded me don't we all own some necessary advice?

 

[Trailblazer]

Claims that are not verifiable.

Claims A, B and C are claims like "Mr B really existed."

Claims D, E and F are claims like, "He was a messenger from God."

You formerly said: But you have reached the conclusion, "If A, B and C are correct, then claims D, E and F are also correct, even though there's no way to demonstrate that those are facts."

Your conclusion about D, E and F is unjustified.

So you are saying that the claim "He was a messenger from God" is unjustified, but I am not the one who made that claim so I am not the one who needs to justify the claim. Baha'u'llah made the claim so He is the one who needs to justify it. I just believe the claim He made and I have reasons to believe that I only need to justify to myself.

What is the difference between "The wine became vinegar" and "the vinegar became wine"?

A becomes B is a different thing to B becomes A. Different start point and a different end point.

Okay fair enough, but God did not become Jesus, God manifested Himself in the man Jesus.

No, that is according to your opinion.

And what you believe to the contrary is only YOUR opinion.

Two different things.

There was a time when David Bowie and Tilda Swinton went out dressed as each other. David appeared as Tilda, and that was very different to Tilda appearing as David.

Sorry, you lost me with your analogy.
Le me rephrase that: When God was manifest in Jesus, Jesus became a Manifestation of God.

So what? You think that bolsters your point? It does not. If you are going to claim that the fact there are other people who agree with you makes your point more likely, then the fact that the vast majority of Christians DISAGREE with you renders it invalid. And if you are going to accuse me of using the argument from popularity, then I'll point out you were the one who thought it was valid enough to claim that your point was supported by having other people agreeing with you in the first place.

To say that the fact that the vast majority of Christians DISAGREE with me means that Jesus actually rose from the dead is the fallacy of argumentum ad populum.

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."
Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

All I was doing was pointing out that not all Christians believe that Jesus rose from the dead.
The point is that how may people believe something has no bearing as to whether it is true or not.

Because it supports Bahai beliefs.

I asked HOW does that what Baha'is believe about Jesus being a Manifestation of God support Baha'i beliefs?
You did not answer. So in what way would that support Baha'i beliefs?

To say that A manifests as B literally means A becomes B.

No, it absolutely does NOT mean that.

Manifest meaning

To show or demonstrate plainly; reveal.

Clearly apparent to the sight or understanding; obvious.

To enter in a ship's manifest.

Evident to the senses, especially to the sight; apparent; distinctly perceived.

Manifest is defined as to prove or make something clear.
An example of manifest is showing someone the facts about something.

Apparent to the senses, esp. that of sight, or to the mind; evident; obvious; clear; plain.

An itemized list of a ship's cargo, to be shown to customs officials.

To make clear or evident; show plainly; reveal; evince.

To prove; be evidence of.

To appear to the senses; show itself.

A list of the passengers and cargo on an airplane.

Obvious to the understanding; apparent to the mind; easily apprehensible; plain; not obscure or hidden.

(rare, used with "of") Detected; convicted.

A list or invoice of the passengers or goods being carried by a commercial vehicle or ship.

(computing) A file containing metadata describing other files.

To show plainly; to make to appear distinctly, usually to the mind; to put beyond question or doubt; to display; to exhibit.

His courage manifested itself via the look on his face.

To exhibit the manifests or prepared invoices of; to declare at the customhouse.

The definition of manifest is something that is clear to see or understand.
An example of manifest is someone knowing that something is true.

To become manifest; be revealed.
Depression can manifest as irritability.

A list of cargo or passengers carried on a ship or plane.

A list of railroad cars according to owner and location.

An invoice of goods carried on a truck or train.

Manifest Meaning | Best 22 Definitions of Manifest

I have pointed out where Jesus did. All you can do is claim that in your opinion that verse doesn't count and present your alternative interpretation. But you have no evidence at all that your interpretation is any more valid than mine.

You have no evidence at all that your interpretation is any more valid than mine so why are we still discussing it?

Oh look, someone cherry picking the bits of the Bible they can use to support their claim...

Did you even watch the video before you said that? The video proves -- with logic and scripture -- that Jesus cannot be God. There was no cherry picking, but you would never know that unless you watched the video. Instead, you committed the fallacy of jumping to conclusions. Obviously, you have no interest in knowing the Truth about God.

The Truth about God is all in that video and it has nothing to do with the Baha'i Faith. It was made by Muslims who also know the Truth about God. Jews also know the Truth about God. It is ONLY the Christians who believe that Jesus is God who don't know the Truth about God because they misinterpreted the scriptures.

Of course you won't watch it because then you might have to concede to the truth -- Jesus is not God.
The hundred dollar question is why you don't become a Christian if you actually believe that Jesus is God? Your search for God would then be over!

Unless you believe that Jesus is God you doing this just to try to prove that my Baha'i beliefs about Jesus are wrong. I consider that pretty childish and a waste of time.

 

[rational experiences]

You formerly said: But you have reached the conclusion, "If A, B and C are correct, then claims D, E and F are also correct, even though there's no way to demonstrate that those are facts."

Your conclusion about D, E and F is unjustified.

So you are saying that the claim "He was a messenger from God" is unjustified, but I am not the one who made that claim so I am not the one who needs to justify the claim. Baha'u'llah made the claim so He is the one who need to justify it. I just believe the claim He made and I have reasons to believe that I only need to justify to myself.

Okay fair enough, but God did not become Jesus, God manifested Himself as Jesus.

And what you believe to the contrary is only YOUR opinion.

Sorry, you lost me with your analogy.
Le me rephrase that: When God was manifest in Jesus, Jesus became a Manifestation of God.

To say that the fact that the vast majority of Christians DISAGREE with me means that Jesus actually rose from the dead is the fallacy of argumentum ad populum.

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so." Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

All I was doing was pointing out that not all Christian believe that Jesus rose from the dead.
The point is that how may people believe something has no bearing as to whether it is true or not.

I asked HOW does that what Baha'is believe about Jesus being a Manifestation of God support Baha'i beliefs?
You did not answer. So in what way would that support Baha'i beliefs?

No, absolutely NOT.

Manifest meaning

To show or demonstrate plainly; reveal.

Clearly apparent to the sight or understanding; obvious.

To enter in a ship's manifest.

Evident to the senses, especially to the sight; apparent; distinctly perceived.

Manifest is defined as to prove or make something clear.
An example of manifest is showing someone the facts about something.

Apparent to the senses, esp. that of sight, or to the mind; evident; obvious; clear; plain.

An itemized list of a ship's cargo, to be shown to customs officials.

To make clear or evident; show plainly; reveal; evince.

To prove; be evidence of.

To appear to the senses; show itself.

A list of the passengers and cargo on an airplane.

Obvious to the understanding; apparent to the mind; easily apprehensible; plain; not obscure or hidden.

(rare, used with "of") Detected; convicted.

A list or invoice of the passengers or goods being carried by a commercial vehicle or ship.

(computing) A file containing metadata describing other files.

To show plainly; to make to appear distinctly, usually to the mind; to put beyond question or doubt; to display; to exhibit.

His courage manifested itself via the look on his face.

To exhibit the manifests or prepared invoices of; to declare at the customhouse.

The definition of manifest is something that is clear to see or understand.
An example of manifest is someone knowing that something is true.

To become manifest; be revealed.
Depression can manifest as irritability.

A list of cargo or passengers carried on a ship or plane.

A list of railroad cars according to owner and location.

An invoice of goods carried on a truck or train.

Manifest Meaning | Best 22 Definitions of Manifest

You have no evidence at all that your interpretation is any more valid than mine so why are we still discussing it?

Did you even watch the video before you said that? The video proves -- with logic and scripture -- that Jesus cannot be God.

Of course you won't watch it because then you might have to concede to the truth -- Jesus is not God.
The hundred dollar question is why you don't become a Christian if you actually believe that Jesus is God? Your search for God would then be over!

Unless you believe that Jesus is God you are really being dishonest and doing this just to try to prove that my Baha'i beliefs about Jesus are wrong. I consider that pretty childish and a waste of time.

You have to be human first to observe all human man science quotations.

You have to be witness to man's body and his life body sacrifice to quantify qualify change.

Why a medical DNA human genesis account said no man is God.

As we live inside water holy ox oxygenation regeneration as baptism of life is holy water.

All status taught by humans via human science details or in human presence as thesis.

To think.

First natural innate human was a healer. Who looked saw identified natural human reasons for equal natural human self.

Was before science was ever practiced actually.

 

[rational experiences]

If humans said to all humans you own CHrist consciousness first on earth so you cannot claim in science I am a God owning all energy forms inside my body. Formed in space.

Am a theist. Thinker human.

If you said God earth is owner held mass and then your brother claiming self a God tries to remove the form's stone owned as multi energy body's naming each form.

Then you would quote no man is God and never give God as any energy form a name ever again.

Knowing his possessed and obsessed mind status you science are Brother is expressed in Sion terms....

Fusion.
Fission.
Possession.
Obsession.

Then knowing energy forms manifested via space changes variations presence of multi energy states itself.

Living inside a very slight gas energy form real.
Living inside water oxygen not much energy at all real also.

Microbe food at small body level.

Says your brother in science is satanic meant it. Stephen haw king warning. Likes burning you to death by machine ownership. Satan he said is a metal beginning. Alien UFO.

Compared to mass removal of energy by scientists claiming I will find all variations of energy forms in space and convert them all.

Said a scientist is a destroyer.

Why he said no man is God. Not to be dis spirited but to save his humanity.