Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Trailblazer]

If we all have the capacity to be a believer, and capacity alone is enough...

...why are there atheists at all?

1. Because not everyone wants to believe in God
2. Because not everyone uses the capacity they have to make an effort to believe in God.

Do you assume all atheists want to believe in God?
Do you want to believe in God?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Additional to what? You have to spell out your question.

How would I know? You claimed that Bahai religion has 'additional truths'. I want to know what these 'additional truths' are? That is the fourth time.

1. Because not everyone wants to believe in God.

Why do atheist do not want to believe in God? - Because there is absolutely no evidence of the existence of God, soul or messengers.

 

[Trailblazer]

How would I know? You claimed that Bahai religion has 'additional truths'. I want to know what these 'additional' truths are? That is the fourth time.

The Baha'i Faith does not have any additional spiritual truths that other religions do not have....
What the Baha'i Faith has is additional "social teachings"

The Main Baha’i Teachings
The Baha’i teachings focus on the soul’s relationship with the eternal, unknowable essence of God, and recommend daily prayer and meditation to everyone. Baha’is believe that the human spirit lives eternally, and so endeavor to illumine their souls with spiritual attributes — kindness, generosity, integrity, truthfulness, humility, and selfless service to others.

The Baha’i Faith provides the means for peace and tranquility through a progressive set of social teachings:

• Independent Investigation of Truth
• Elimination of Prejudice of Every Kind
• The Oneness of Humanity
• One Essential Foundation for All Religions
• Religion Should Cause Love, Affection, and Joy
• The Harmony of Science and Religion
• A Universal Auxiliary Language
• Universal Compulsory Education
• Gender Equality
• Establishing a World Parliament
• The Abolition of the Extremes of Wealth and Poverty
• The Non-Involvement of Religion With Politics
• Human Rights for All

These fundamental Baha’i principles call for a complete restructuring of humanity’s priorities — from material to spiritual, from exclusive to inclusive, and from divisiveness to unity.

What Is the Baha'i Faith?

The Baha'i Faith also has a "plan" for the building of a new world order.

“The world’s equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System—the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 136

“By My Self! The day is approaching when We will have rolled up the world and all that is therein, and spread out a new order in its stead. He, verily, is powerful over all things.” Gleanings, p. 313

Why do atheist do not want to believe in God? - Because there is absolutely no evidence of the existence of God, soul or messengers.

Do you really think that is the only reason that atheists don't want to believe in God?
Why do you think all atheists would want to believe in God, if there was evidence for God's existence?

 

[Aupmanyav]

The Baha'i Faith does not have any additional spiritual truths that other religions do not have....

Why do you think all atheists would want to believe in God, if there was evidence for God's existence?

Now, that is completely opposite of what you had said till now. You said Bahai religion has 'additional truths'. Then, for what were you fooling around all this time? Then why did Allah chose Bahaollah as his messenger and what new message did he convey through him?

How can all religions unite? All religions (including Bahais) have their own beliefs. No other religion believes that a new message is required and no other religion accepts Bahaollah as the messenger of any God. 'Live together', that is another thing. We have been living together even before Bahaollah was born, most of the times in peace, sometimes in conflict also. And appearance of Bahai religion or Ahmadiyya religion does not change that. It only adds more contestants.

Sure, if there was evidence, atheists will not be able to deny existence of Allah / God. There will be no ground for denial. But the problem is that there is no evidence either for God / Allah or for any prophet / son / messenger / manifeswtation / mahdi.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

I cannot say that I ever paid any attention to these words.

Corn - Oil - Wine
Sea - River - Stream
Moon - Star - Sun
Cattle - Goats - Sheep
Valley - Hill - Mountain

I cannot understand why any of this matters.

Again, I cannot understand why any of this matters.

Again, I cannot understand why any of this matters. How is this going to change the suffering of humanity?

“The vitality of men’s belief in God is dying out in every land; nothing short of His wholesome medicine can ever restore it. The corrosion of ungodliness is eating into the vitals of human society; what else but the Elixir of His potent Revelation can cleanse and revive it? Is it within human power, O Hakím, to effect in the constituent elements of any of the minute and indivisible particles of matter so complete a transformation as to transmute it into purest gold? Perplexing and difficult as this may appear, the still greater task of converting satanic strength into heavenly power is one that We have been empowered to accomplish. The Force capable of such a transformation transcendeth the potency of the Elixir itself. The Word of God, alone, can claim the distinction of being endowed with the capacity required for so great and far-reaching a change.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 200

I try to pay attention to words.

I think I can hear something that expanded out of the bible and around the world.
But I cant hear it in the words of Baha'u'llah.


I show blocks of words as a visual representation of what I am hearing.
Using verses to show placement.

Been doing that since I came to this forum seeking help with it.





Thought @infrabenji might be able to help me. Seemed to be listening to people so I came to this thread.

I can’t tell if you’re as genius, crazy, or a crazy genius. Let’s start with the wheel. How are the different categories assigned and how are the animals assigned within them? Is there something you have online that could give me a visual representation so I can understand better? Thanks in advance for your patience.

Then:

I’m going to draw it and see. I’m definitely curious. Thanks for your patience with me.

Would have been nice to hear more from him about my different point of view.



I am deeply sorry for the confusion @Trailblazer

 

[Trailblazer]

Now, that is completely opposite of what you had said till now. You said Bahai religion has 'additional truths'. Then, for what were you fooling around all this time?

I wasn't fooling around, I guess I just miscommunicated what I wanted to say.

Then why did Allah chose Bahaollah as his messenger and what new message did he convey through him?

Allah chooses whomsoever He wants to be His Messenger.
The message Baha'u'llah brought was the oneness of God, the oneness of religion, the oneness of mankind and world unity...

How can all religions unite? All religions (including Bahais) have their own beliefs. No other religion believes that a new message is required and no other religion accepts Bahaollah as the messenger of any God. 'Live together', that is another thing. We have been living together even before Bahaollah was born, most of the times in peace, sometimes in conflict also. And appearance of Bahai religion or Ahmadiyya religion does not change that. It only adds more contestants.

The unity of religions is not going to happen any time soon because the world is not ready for that yet.
However, since it has been ordained by God it will happen eventually, long after you and I have met our Maker.

“That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful and inspired Physician. This, verily, is the truth, and all else naught but error.”
The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 91

Sure, if there was evidence, atheists will not be able to deny existence of Allah / God. There will be no ground for denial. But the problem is that there is no evidence.

I guess you mean there is no proof. There is evidence but there is no proof because God does not want to provide proof.

Atheist could deny the evidence and that is what they are doing right now.

 

[Truthseeker]

The words of Baha'u'llah can be found online.

Can search for any word he says.

Bahá’í Reference Library | The Bahá’í Faith (bahai.org)

Please take a look and get back to me.

Have you ever read the Hidden Words? That is definitely not hollow.

 

[Trailblazer]

There's a lot about religious belief that makes no sense to me. So I have no idea.

So that means you don't know what my agenda is.

But here's the problem I have...

If there are facts A, B and C about your religion (facts that I won't argue with, like Mr B was a real person, he actually wrote the stuff, etc), then that's fine.

But you have reached the conclusion, "If A, B and C are correct, then claims D, E and F are also correct, even though there's no way to demonstrate that those are facts."

Your conclusion about D, E and F is unjustified.

That depends upon what claims D, E and F are.

And I could just as easily say that your "analysis" is just opinion as well.

Remember, the belief you hold so important is just another superstition to people who don't share your beliefs. So don't expect me to find it as convincing as you do when all you can do is offer your opinion about it.

You could say that if you want to. I certainly expect you to find my beliefs convincing like I do.

Please pay attention.

I'm not saying Jesus became God.

I'm saying that (according to the Bible) God became Jesus.

Big difference there.

What is the difference between Jesus became God and God became Jesus? Think about it. If God became Jesus then Jesus became God.

No, NOT according to the Bible. Absolutely NOT. God did not become Jesus according to the Bible, only according to Christianity's misinterpretation of the Bible and the ensuing false doctrines of the Church.

Other way around! The Bible doesn't say Jesus appeared as God, it says God appeared as Jesus!

That's what I said. Jesus was a Manifestation of God so God manifested Himself in Jesus.

So?

So, not all Christians believe that the physical body of Jesus literally rose from the dead.

You've cited plenty of passages from the Bible to support your beliefs. In post 963, you cited 1 Timothy 3:16 to support your belief that Jesus was infallible because he was a manifestation of God. Behold!

How does that what Baha'is believe about Jesus being a Manifestation of God support MY Baha'i beliefs?

This is straight out of the Bible and it says that Jesus was a Manifestation of God.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world,
received up into glory.

NOWHERE in the Bible does it say that God became Jesus. NOWHERE. Besides that, nowhere did Jesus EVER claim to be God. If you care to know the truth, I suggest you watch this video because the interviewee was a Christian minister before he became a Muslim. This has nothing to do with the Baha'i Faith.

 

[CG Didymus]

Of course the Baha'is are not perfect, no humans are perfect, but that is no way to judge a religion, because people will always fall short of the teachings. I do not care what the other Baha'is do, I only care about what I do and how I treat other people.

Also, to pick out instances of bad behavior on the part of a few Baha'is and and not look at the Baha'is as a whole group is going to lead to false conclusions.

Regarding the character of some Baha'is and the triumph of this Cause, it is important to note what the Guardian said:

“Not by the force of numbers, not by the mere exposition of a set of new and noble principles, not by an organized campaign of teaching—no matter how worldwide and elaborate in its character—not even by the staunchness of our faith or the exaltation of our enthusiasm, can we ultimately hope to vindicate in the eyes of a critical and sceptical age the supreme claim of the Abhá Revelation. One thing and only one thing will unfailingly and alone secure the undoubted triumph of this sacred Cause, namely, the extent to which our own inner life and private character mirror forth in their manifold aspects the splendor of those eternal principles proclaimed by Bahá’u’lláh.” Bahá’í Administration, p. 66

Those that gain the power in the religion are the ones that bring it down. These are claims against Baha'i NSA members. These were some of the top leaders in the Faith.

Mason Remey organized a campaign for the NSA in 1917 in which they captured it and reversed the previous pacifist policy! Older Baha'is spoke of the times when Republican and Democratic Baha'is wouldn't speak with one another.

Mason Remey was a top Baha'i. He was appointed by Shoghi Effendi as the president of the International Baháʼí Council, and later as a Hand of the Cause. Then later he was declared a covenant breaker. Yeah, nobody is perfect.

 

[CG Didymus]

Not much, huh? Just a few bits and pieces?

“As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended. The Founder of the Christian Faith is designated by Bahá’u’lláh as the “Spirit of God,” is proclaimed as the One Who “appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost,” and is even extolled as the “Essence of the Spirit.” The Promised Day is Come, p. 109

“Indeed, the essential prerequisites of admittance into the Bahá’í fold of Jews, Zoroastrians, Hindus, Buddhists, and the followers of other ancient faiths, as well as of agnostics and even atheists, is the wholehearted and unqualified acceptance by them all of the divine origin of both Islám and Christianity, of the Prophetic functions of both Muḥammad and Jesus Christ, of the legitimacy of the institution of the Imamate, and of the primacy of St. Peter, the Prince of the Apostles. Such are the central, the solid, the incontrovertible principles that constitute the bedrock of Bahá’í belief, which the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh is proud to acknowledge, which its teachers proclaim, which its apologists defend, which its literature disseminates, which its summer schools expound, and which the rank and file of its followers attest by both word and deed.” The Promised Day is Come, p. 110

Yeah, we all know how much Baha'is believe about Christianity. It doesn't mean much to say Baha'is believe in the sonship and divinity of Jesus. The important things are what you don't believe about Jesus. No, I should rephrase that... Baha'is do believe some important things about Jesus. He's dead gone and rotted away. He didn't come back to life, and he's not coming back... ever. Sure, Baha'is say they like and believe all the religions. But what exactly is it that you like about them? Tell me one sect or group of any religion that Baha'is believe is teaching the truth... the whole truth about God? No, it's bit and pieces. The rest Baha'is say has been misinterpreted or changed or someway screwed up by the religious leaders. So tell me again, what is it that you believe is true about the other religion? But, considering how screwed up most all "organized" religions are, maybe believing only a few things as being true about what they believe in is a lot. So why pretend that it is more than that?

 

[CG Didymus]

The Baha'i Faith does not have any additional spiritual truths that other religions do not have....
What the Baha'i Faith has is additional "social teachings"

So likewise, Jesus didn't bring any new "spiritual" teachings? Only new "social" teachings? Hmmm? And I don't suppose you know what those were?

 

[Trailblazer]

The important things are what you don't believe about Jesus. No, I should rephrase that... Baha'is do believe some important things about Jesus. He's dead gone and rotted away. He didn't come back to life, and he's not coming back... ever.

Those are not the important things and they are also not the true things, which is why the Baha'is don't believe them.

Sure, Baha'is say they like and believe all the religions. But what exactly is it that you like about them? Tell me one sect or group of any religion that Baha'is believe is teaching the truth... the whole truth about God?
No, it's bit and pieces. The rest Baha'is say has been misinterpreted or changed or someway screwed up by the religious leaders. So tell me again, what is it that you believe is true about the other religion? But, considering how screwed up most all "organized" religions are, maybe believing only a few things as being true about what they believe in is a lot. So why pretend that it is more than that?

You ask me a question and then you answer your own question.
None of them are teaching the whole truth about God because they have all been changed by men, but some of them were never teaching the whole truth about God because they were writings of men that came by way of other men, oral tradition.

Abdu'l-Baha explained what is true in all the religions, the spiritual truths which are eternal.

The first part of the Religion of God which refers to spiritual truth is the same in every religion. The second part of the Religion of God which refers to material things is different in each religion. It changes in each prophetic cycle to accommodate the needs of the times.

In the following passage, the Law of God refers to the divinely revealed religion of God. The spiritual message (spiritual virtues and divine qualities) are the same in all the great world religions:

“the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things—that is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá’u’lláh, and which lasts and is established in all the prophetic cycles. It will never be abrogated, for it is spiritual and not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen......

These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, will never be abolished; nay, they will last and remain established for ever and ever. These virtues of humanity will be renewed in each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle the spiritual Law of God—that is to say, the human virtues—disappears, and only the form subsists.

The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence, theft and injuries—this part of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is modified and altered in each prophetic cycle in accordance with the necessities of the times.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 48

 

[Trailblazer]

So likewise, Jesus didn't bring any new "spiritual" teachings? Only new "social" teachings? Hmmm? And I don't suppose you know what those were?

Do unto others the Golden Rule?

The "Golden Rule" was quoted by Jesus of Nazareth during his Sermon on the Mount and described by him as the second great commandment. The common English phrasing is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

Golden Rule - Wikipedia

 

[infrabenji]

Hi infrabenjii, welcome to the forum, hope you enjoy your time here.

If the study of religion has led you to believe that there is no God, then that is understandable. Athiesm has its roots in the problem of religious institutions, the bad conduct of the worlds religions and the way religions have used the church to control and manipulate mankind. For some athiests, the problems existing in the world have led them to conclude there is no creator. They reason if there were a creator, the world would not be so full of suffering, disaster, war etc. Afterall, how could a loving God allow all this trouble upon innocent people?

But what about the study of science? Have you considered how the inner workings of the universe and life could perhaps point to evidence of a creator?

I am sneaking onto the forum. I’m up late at the office and my fiancé is at home asleep lol so she won’t get mad at me. I have considered it and have heard some arguments for creationism. If you’d like to give me your best insights I’d be happy to discuss your ideas and see if they are convincing to me.

 

[infrabenji]

I try to pay attention to words.

I think I can hear something that expanded out of the bible and around the world.
But I cant hear it in the words of Baha'u'llah.


I show blocks of words as a visual representation of what I am hearing.
Using verses to show placement.

Been doing that since I came to this forum seeking help with it.





Thought @infrabenji might be able to help me. Seemed to be listening to people so I came to this thread.



Then:



Would have been nice to hear more from him about my different point of view.



I am deeply sorry for the confusion @Trailblazer

Hey! I haven’t forgot about you. My fiancé kicked me off the forum lol. Said I was spending to much time goofing around on the internet and not studying. So I took a break for a minute. I’m at my office and she’s home asleep so I’m sneaking back on here real quick. Hope you’ve been doing well. Look forward to speaking with you soon.

 

[samtonga43]

Additional to what? You have to spell out your question.

First, shall we spell out your statement?
"There are a lot of "Additional Truths" in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism and other religions."
Will you please provide one or two 'additional truths' ...
1. In your religion.
2. In Christianity.

Thanks.

 

[Tiberius]

1. Because not everyone wants to believe in God
2. Because not everyone uses the capacity they have to make an effort to believe in God.

Do you assume all atheists want to believe in God?
Do you want to believe in God?

I want to believe in the truth.

If the evidence showed that "God exists" was the truth, then yes, I would believe.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I want to believe in the truth.

If the evidence showed that "God exists" was the truth, then yes, I would believe.

What form of evidence would you say you need, for you to kind of believe God exists?

 

[Secret Chief]

What form of evidence would you say you need, for you to kind of believe God exists?

Look at you, in a debate forum!

 

[Spirit of Light]

Look at you, in a debate forum!

I got curious whoops