Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Trailblazer]

Many people claim to be messengers of god. What is your mechanism for telling which messenger is right and which is wrong?

Sorry it has taken so long for me to get back to you. I had planed to write something longer but after I thought about it I decided it would be better to write something shorter and then have you ask questions if you want further clarification.

The first thing we woukld have to do is rule out anyone who claimed to be a Messenger of God by using certain criteria that will rule out all the false claimants (the false messengers). Whether they are deluded or simply lying in order to deceive people really does not matter; the fact is that they are not true Messengers of God, even if they believe that they are.

By asking the following questions and getting answers we can rule them out.

1. What kind of character do they have? Did they have a good character as demonstrated by their lives and deeds?
2. Did they have a mission on earth that God gave them and was that mission brought to completion successfully?
3. Do they have any scriptures that were written by them or scriptures that were written in their name?
4. Do they have a religion that was established in their name and followers of that religion?
5. Has that religion grown over the years or is it shrinking?

If the answers to any or all of these is no, then they cannot be a true Messenger of God.
If the answer to all of these is yes then chances are they are a true Messenger of God.

This is a starting point but there are other questions we would want to ask ourselves before we would be able to believe that a man was a true Messenger of God because that is a bold claim so there should be a lot of evidence to support such a claim.

 

[ratiocinator]

I do not believe He is the one with the difficulty.

If an omnipotent, omniscient being cannot get its message clearly to its own creation, then I would definitely say it is its problem not ours. It's not even as if all the people who claim to have heard from it agree about what the message is, very far from it.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

We’re always down for cool new ideas. Though I am a skeptic I’m not boring. .

I think mythical creatures and items are also positions of the wheel.
If multiple animals fit into the same position then it is a single thing made of the different animals. It is word stacking.


Its the same thing repeated over and over in different ways. Thats why I can keep showing you different things and their connection.





Like I think it is possible to pull the sword from the stone (the philosophers stone).

The sword of Eden:

So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. Genesis 3:24


Some might get a bow. But some will just get a spear.

Level 1 - Level 2 - Level 3
Spear - Sword - Bow
Straw - Dust - Stubble
Cattle - Goats - Sheep
Brass - Silver - Gold
Desert - Wilderness - Mount (The path where Moses went).


Cattle are spears.

Rebuke the company of spearmen, the multitude of the bulls, with the calves of the people, till every one submit himself with pieces of silver: scatter thou the people that delight in war. Psalm 68:30



The word placement turns swords to dust, Bows to stubble, and spears to straw.

Who raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings? he gave them as the dust to his sword, and as driven stubble to his bow. Isaiah 41:2




Like many verses this sentence says the same thing in different ways - good way, bad way.

They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust. Psalm 72:9



Goats are swords.

And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness. Leviticus 16:22

We gat our bread with the peril of our lives because of the sword of the wilderness. Lamentations 5:9





For the Lord shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the Lord; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody. Isaiah 51:3

The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord. Isaiah 65:25



So the serpent is in Eden (Dust)

The place of the Fig tree (Adam and Eve wore Fig leaves)

The wheel fulfills its own prophecies. Thats what i mean by they can be experienced by an individual reader at any time. They happen the moment understanding is reached.

Especially the crazy sounding stuff like this one:


And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Revelation 6:13





I think that the prophecy is true because Figs are in the same position as Star.

Brass - Silver - Gold
Pomegranate - Fig - Apple.
Moon - Star - Sun



Maybe you have heard of Golden apples. I found there is also Silver figs, and Brass pomegranates.


And a chapiter of brass was upon it; and the height of one chapiter was five cubits, with network and pomegranates upon the chapiters round about, all of brass. The second pillar also and the pomegranates were like unto these. Jeremiah 52:22

The golden apple is part apple and part gold.

Does this make any sense to you?

 

[Trailblazer]

If an omnipotent, omniscient being cannot get its message clearly to its own creation, then I would definitely say it is its problem not ours. It's not even as if all the people who claim to have heard from it agree about what the message is, very far from it.

It is not God's fault of people refuse to look at the new message from the new Messenger or reject it after they look at it.

All the people who claim to have heard from God do not agree about what the message is because they are clinging to the messages from the past religions, which are all different.

 

[ratiocinator]

That is a bit too vague. What do you mean by evidence and logic?

Evidence is objective facts that we'd expect to be true if your proposition is true and not otherwise or if some alternative was true instead. Regarding logic, a valid argument must make it impossible for its premises to be true and its conclusion false. To be sound it must be valid and have true premises.

No, that is based upon logic. It is not logical to believe in a religion that has scriptures that were written thousands of years ago because those scriptures were written for people living thousands of years ago, NOT for people living in the present age of reason and science. You should not accept that I am right, you should use your OWN logical reasoning abilities.

It is the claim of many religions that their holy books contain timeless truths, that aren't just for the time they were written. I see no logical problem with that if there is an omnipotent, omniscient god, so I don't see that your logic stands up without first accepting one of the central claims of your faith.

Nobody who doesn't accept it is supposed to conclude that it's true. They are supposed to do an independent investigation to determine for themselves if it is true or not, and only after they are convinced that it is true should they believe it is true.

Which brings is right back to why a rational person would ever embark on such an investigation.

It is irrelevant that God is omnipotent. God is a spirit so God cannot 'show up' such that we can see Him with our physical eyes or hear Him with our physical ears. So what God does is manifest Himself in the person of the Messenger who is also referred to as a Manifestation of God.

Being omnipotent means it could show up in any form it wants. Appearing as an ordinary human is rather pathetic if it wants to get its message across.

This is logical.

I think you're mistaking 'logical' as meaning that you find it reasonable in some way. I find it totally unconvincing.

I fully understand that because I did not start out with a belief. You see, I was not raised in any religion or believing in God. I came upon my religion in adulthood and I have to investigate it and determine if it was true or not. It was never an emotional thing for me, it was all based upon information, reason and logic.

So what was the reason you even started to take it seriously enough to look into?

Why is it unjust or unfair for God to expect effort on the part of an atheist or a religious believer and require them to seek and find the latest Messenger if they really want to know the truth?

Haven't we already covered this? Because there is no prima facie reason to think there is any truth to be found in any religion or that there is such a thing as a 'Messenger'.

I can have it both ways because religious people believe in God even though they do not have the latest message from God.

Except they believe in different gods and not a small number of them, in more than one god. And it's still an argumentum ad populum fallacy.

Also, the latest message from God is NOT hidden, it is all over the internet!

I didn't mean that it's literally hidden, it's hidden in the sense that it's just one amongst many supposed messages that contradict each other. I would expect a message from god to be absolutely, blindingly, obvious to everybody in the world. Anything else is unjust (if the message is important to us all).

I understand that unless people have a reason to search for the Baha'i Faith they would not be looking for it, but once they have been told about it it is not difficult to research it.

But why would you? I've been told about countless religious and other apparently baseless beliefs. Life is way too short to look into all of them. I also find even the small part I've heard about here to be unbelievable for the reasons I've explained.

 

[ratiocinator]

It is not God's fault of people refuse to look at the new message from the new Messenger or reject it after they look at it.

All the people who claim to have heard from God do not agree about what the message is because they are clinging to the messages from the past religions, which are all different.

All of which absolutely would be god's fault for not communicating clearly enough.

 

[Trailblazer]

All of which absolutely would be god's fault for not communicating clearly enough.

God communicated clearly enough.

 

[ratiocinator]

God communicated clearly enough.

Clearly enough for what? Obviously not clearly enough that everybody recognised and understood the messages. If god exists, it's an unequal relationship. If god is omnipotent and omniscient, then it must be capable of communicating to every single human in the world in a clear and unambiguous way. If its message is important to our individual well-being (now or in the future) and god chooses not to do that, then it is not just and fair.

Leaving people to scrabble around trying to find and interpret its messages, getting things wrong, fighting wars and killing each other over different messages and interpretations, would not only be unjust and unfair, but cruel and evil.

 

[infrabenji]

I think mythical creatures and items are also positions of the wheel.
If multiple animals fit into the same position then it is a single thing made of the different animals. It is word stacking.


Its the same thing repeated over and over in different ways. Thats why I can keep showing you different things and their connection.





Like I think it is possible to pull the sword from the stone (the philosophers stone).

The sword of Eden:

So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. Genesis 3:24


Some might get a bow. But some will just get a spear.

Level 1 - Level 2 - Level 3
Spear - Sword - Bow
Straw - Dust - Stubble
Cattle - Goats - Sheep
Brass - Silver - Gold
Desert - Wilderness - Mount (The path where Moses went).


Cattle are spears.

Rebuke the company of spearmen, the multitude of the bulls, with the calves of the people, till every one submit himself with pieces of silver: scatter thou the people that delight in war. Psalm 68:30



The word placement turns swords to dust, Bows to stubble, and spears to straw.

Who raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings? he gave them as the dust to his sword, and as driven stubble to his bow. Isaiah 41:2




Like many verses this sentence says the same thing in different ways - good way, bad way.

They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust. Psalm 72:9



Goats are swords.

And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness. Leviticus 16:22

We gat our bread with the peril of our lives because of the sword of the wilderness. Lamentations 5:9





For the Lord shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the Lord; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody. Isaiah 51:3

The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord. Isaiah 65:25



So the serpent is in Eden (Dust)

The place of the Fig tree (Adam and Eve wore Fig leaves)

The wheel fulfills its own prophecies. Thats what i mean by they can be experienced by an individual reader at any time. They happen the moment understanding is reached.

Especially the crazy sounding stuff like this one:


And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Revelation 6:13





I think that the prophecy is true because Figs are in the same position as Star.

Brass - Silver - Gold
Pomegranate - Fig - Apple.
Moon - Star - Sun



Maybe you have heard of Golden apples. I found there is also Silver figs, and Brass pomegranates.


And a chapiter of brass was upon it; and the height of one chapiter was five cubits, with network and pomegranates upon the chapiters round about, all of brass. The second pillar also and the pomegranates were like unto these. Jeremiah 52:22

The golden apple is part apple and part gold.

Does this make any sense to you?

I can’t tell if you’re as genius, crazy, or a crazy genius. Let’s start with the wheel. How are the different categories assigned and how are the animals assigned within them? Is there something you have online that could give me a visual representation so I can understand better? Thanks in advance for your patience.

 

[infrabenji]

Sorry it has taken so long for me to get back to you. I had planed to write something longer but after I thought about it I decided it would be better to write something shorter and then have you ask questions if you want further clarification.

The first thing we woukld have to do is rule out anyone who claimed to be a Messenger of God by using certain criteria that will rule out all the false claimants (the false messengers). Whether they are deluded or simply lying in order to deceive people really does not matter; the fact is that they are not true Messengers of God, even if they believe that they are.

By asking the following questions and getting answers we can rule them out.

1. What kind of character do they have? Did they have a good character as demonstrated by their lives and deeds?
2. Did they have a mission on earth that God gave them and was that mission brought to completion successfully?
3. Do they have any scriptures that were written by them or scriptures that were written in their name?
4. Do they have a religion that was established in their name and followers of that religion?
5. Has that religion grown over the years or is it shrinking?

If the answers to any or all of these is no, then they cannot be a true Messenger of God.
If the answer to all of these is yes then chances are they are a true Messenger of God.

This is a starting point but there are other questions we would want to ask ourselves before we would be able to believe that a man was a true Messenger of God because that is a bold claim so there should be a lot of evidence to support such a claim.

I agree there should be enough evidence to support the claim. I think the points above could apply to a broad range of “prophets”. And whether at not people would believe would be mostly subjective interpretation.

 

[Trailblazer]

Clearly enough for what? Obviously not clearly enough that everybody recognised and understood the messages. If god exists, it's an unequal relationship. If god is omnipotent and omniscient, then it must be capable of communicating to every single human in the world in a clear and unambiguous way.

God is omnipotent thus capable of communicating to every single human in the world in a clear and unambiguous way but that is a moot point because God does not do everything that He is capable of. If God did everything He is capable of God could wipe all humans out in a heartbeat.

Clearly, it is because God is omnipotent that God only does what God chooses to do, not what you or anyone else expects Him to do. This is logic 101.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209

Clearly, it is because God is omnipotent that you are not getting what you want and expect but rather you are only getting what God chooses to give you. God is never going to communicate directly to every single human in the world in a clear and unambiguous way because God does not choose to do that.

If its message is important to our individual well-being (now or in the future) and god chooses not to do that, then it is not just and fair.

You can call God unjust and unfair till the cows come home, but that will not get God to do what you want Him to do, because God is not a short order cook who takes orders from humans. An omnipotent God only does what He chooses to do. This is logic 101.

Leaving people to scrabble around trying to find and interpret its messages, getting things wrong, fighting wars and killing each other over different messages and interpretations, would not only be unjust and unfair, but cruel and evil.

You can call God unjust and unfair or cruel and evil till the cows come home, but that will not get God to do what you want Him to do, because God is not a short order cook who takes orders from humans. An omnipotent God only does what He chooses to do. This is logic 101.

You do not have to 'scrabble around' to find the latest message from God. it is right at your fingertips because the Baha'is labored diligently to make it available to everyone in the world via the internet, in over 800 languages.

Everything you would ever want to know about God and everything that has been revealed by God to date is available for everyone to read in the Baha’i Reference Library:

Baha’i Reference Library (old version)

Baha’i Reference Library (new version, downloadable)

The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

God is hiding nothing, God just expects people to make an effort if they want to know He exists and know something about Him. God and is ALL available to read about free of charge.

“The incomparable Creator hath created all men from one same substance, and hath exalted their reality above the rest of His creatures. Success or failure, gain or loss, must, therefore, depend upon man’s own exertions. The more he striveth, the greater will be his progress.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 81-82

Everything in this life that is worth having requires an effort, why should God's message be any different? If you don't want to make the effort, you will not get the reward, it is as simple as that. It won't affect God in any way because God does not need your belief. It will only affect you.

“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.” Gleanings, p. 339

 

[Trailblazer]

I agree there should be enough evidence to support the claim. I think the points above could apply to a broad range of “prophets”. And whether at not people would believe would be mostly subjective interpretation.

Can you name some prophets that you think these points apply to?

You are correct that what people would believe would be mostly subjective interpretation. Do you see any way around that?

It is important to note that there are two kinds of Prophets. When I talk about Messengers of God, I am referring to the independent Prophets who are the lawgivers and the founders of a new cycle.

Question.—How many kinds of Prophets are there?

Answer.—Universally, the Prophets are of two kinds. One are the independent Prophets Who are followed; the other kind are not independent and are themselves followers.

The independent Prophets are the lawgivers and the founders of a new cycle. Through Their appearance the world puts on a new garment, the foundations of religion are established, and a new book is revealed. Without an intermediary They receive bounty from the Reality of the Divinity, and Their illumination is an essential illumination. They are like the sun which is luminous in itself: the light is its essential necessity; it does not receive light from any other star. These Dawning-places of the morn of Unity are the sources of bounty and the mirrors of the Essence of Reality.

The other Prophets are followers and promoters, for they are branches and not independent; they receive the bounty of the independent Prophets, and they profit by the light of the Guidance of the universal Prophets. They are like the moon, which is not luminous and radiant in itself, but receives its light from the sun.

The Manifestations of universal Prophethood Who appeared independently are, for example, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh. But the others who are followers and promoters are like Solomon, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel. For the independent Prophets are founders; They establish a new religion and make new creatures of men; They change the general morals, promote new customs and rules, renew the cycle and the Law. Their appearance is like the season of spring, which arrays all earthly beings in a new garment, and gives them a new life.

With regard to the second sort of Prophets who are followers, these also promote the Law of God, make known the Religion of God, and proclaim His word. Of themselves they have no power and might, except what they receive from the independent Prophets.

43: THE TWO CLASSES OF PROPHETS, Some Answered Questions, pp. 164-165

Bahais believe that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God and a Messenger of God, not a Prophet.

Where in the writings of Baha'u'llah does he claim to be a "prophet"?

Baha’u’llah claimed to be a Manifestation of God and stated that He wasn’t a Prophet but a Divine Messenger and Revelator of the Word of God for this age. There were many ‘miracles’ which took place as a result of His Revelation, the very amazing things that have been taking place in the age we are living are a result of the power released by His Revelation, often referred to as ‘the creative word’. He didn’t put much emphasis on miracles, the whole of His incredible volume of Revelation is a miracle in itself. Alone and un-aided as a prisoner in the most desolate and most degrading conditions He was able to produce the most wonderful spiritual scriptures, over 100 volumes during His time of Revelation.

Where in the writings of Baha'u'llah does he claim to be a 'prophet'? - Quora

 

[infrabenji]

Can you name some prophets that you think these points apply to?

You are correct that what people would believe would be mostly subjective interpretation. Do you see any way around that?

It is important to note that there are two kinds of Prophets. When I talk about Messengers of God, I am referring to the independent Prophets who are the lawgivers and the founders of a new cycle.

Question.—How many kinds of Prophets are there?

Answer.—Universally, the Prophets are of two kinds. One are the independent Prophets Who are followed; the other kind are not independent and are themselves followers.

The independent Prophets are the lawgivers and the founders of a new cycle. Through Their appearance the world puts on a new garment, the foundations of religion are established, and a new book is revealed. Without an intermediary They receive bounty from the Reality of the Divinity, and Their illumination is an essential illumination. They are like the sun which is luminous in itself: the light is its essential necessity; it does not receive light from any other star. These Dawning-places of the morn of Unity are the sources of bounty and the mirrors of the Essence of Reality.

The other Prophets are followers and promoters, for they are branches and not independent; they receive the bounty of the independent Prophets, and they profit by the light of the Guidance of the universal Prophets. They are like the moon, which is not luminous and radiant in itself, but receives its light from the sun.

The Manifestations of universal Prophethood Who appeared independently are, for example, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh. But the others who are followers and promoters are like Solomon, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel. For the independent Prophets are founders; They establish a new religion and make new creatures of men; They change the general morals, promote new customs and rules, renew the cycle and the Law. Their appearance is like the season of spring, which arrays all earthly beings in a new garment, and gives them a new life.

With regard to the second sort of Prophets who are followers, these also promote the Law of God, make known the Religion of God, and proclaim His word. Of themselves they have no power and might, except what they receive from the independent Prophets.

43: THE TWO CLASSES OF PROPHETS, Some Answered Questions, pp. 164-165

Bahais believe that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God and a Messenger of God, not a Prophet.

Where in the writings of Baha'u'llah does he claim to be a "prophet"?

Baha’u’llah claimed to be a Manifestation of God and stated that He wasn’t a Prophet but a Divine Messenger and Revelator of the Word of God for this age. There were many ‘miracles’ which took place as a result of His Revelation, the very amazing things that have been taking place in the age we are living are a result of the power released by His Revelation, often referred to as ‘the creative word’. He didn’t put much emphasis on miracles, the whole of His incredible volume of Revelation is a miracle in itself. Alone and un-aided as a prisoner in the most desolate and most degrading conditions He was able to produce the most wonderful spiritual scriptures, over 100 volumes during His time of Revelation.

Where in the writings of Baha'u'llah does he claim to be a 'prophet'? - Quora

Thanks for the definitions. Messenger/ Prophet have always meant the same thing to me. There are Japanese religions with tons of books, messages from god etc… and all over the world since time immemorial. A quick google search on weird religions will solve that. I think it is just another religion like so many others that panders to an audience of people with a predisposition to believe in something without evidence because physical and psychological factors like trauma or crisis. Bahai especially seems like just another flavor of religion from the barrel. One that appeals to certain people because of certain subjective factors but like all religions lacks any evidence to support it’s claims, cannot be shown to be true beyond a reasonable doubt, and must be taken on faith. And faith as we know isn’t a reliable pathway to truth. I’ve read 10’s of thousands of words you’ve written and unfortunately they are all just claims that can’t be substantiated. Doesn’t mean I don’t want to be friends. Demonstrating a fact is easy and it should concern you that all you can do is repeat claims, claims that aren’t even yours, without being able to demonstrate any facts at all. I get it if you need to believe because of physical or psychological problems or a need to feel included, loved, and/ or certain but it doesn’t really change the outcome or make things better. I can get mad at a situation but my emotions don’t dictate the actual outcome e. g. I spill milk no matter how mad I get doesn’t change the fact I have to clean it up. If I don’t and I ignore it I’ll just have worse problems. In some cases people hide from and/or ignore reality and religion helps them do both. I don’t mean to be discouraging. I genuinely care about helping people which is why I put that kind of bluntly. No sugar coating for friends lol. Hope you’re having a good day. Talk soon.

 

[Trailblazer]

Thanks for the definitions. Messenger/ Prophet have always meant the same thing to me. There are Japanese religions with tons of books, messages from god etc… and all over the world since time immemorial. A quick google search on weird religions will solve that. I think it is just another religion like so many others that panders to an audience of people with a predisposition to believe in something without evidence because physical and psychological factors like trauma or crisis. Bahai especially seems like just another flavor of religion from the barrel. One that appeals to certain people because of certain subjective factors but like all religions lacks any evidence to support it’s claims, cannot be shown to be true beyond a reasonable doubt, and must be taken on faith. And faith as we know isn’t a reliable pathway to truth. I’ve read 10’s of thousands of words you’ve written and unfortunately they are all just claims that can’t be substantiated. Doesn’t mean I don’t want to be friends. Demonstrating a fact is easy and it should concern you that all you can do is repeat claims, claims that aren’t even yours, without being able to demonstrate any facts at all. I get it if you need to believe because of physical or psychological problems or a need to feel included, loved, and/ or certain but it doesn’t really change the outcome or make things better. I can get mad at a situation but my emotions don’t dictate the actual outcome e. g. I spill milk no matter how mad I get doesn’t change the fact I have to clean it up. If I don’t and I ignore it I’ll just have worse problems. In some cases people hide from and/or ignore reality and religion helps them do both. I don’t mean to be discouraging. I genuinely care about helping people which is why I put that kind of bluntly. No sugar coating for friends lol. Hope you’re having a good day. Talk soon.

I appreciate that you are a straight shooter because I am the same way. I never sugar coat what I say. If you read what I post to both atheists and Christians you would see that I never mince words, although I make an effort to be polite even when I am furious, which happens quite often when I am reading posts from certain people.

Clearly, you and I do not reason the same way but that does not mean we cannot be friends. All humans reason differently and how they reason is related to many factors, including factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, and adult experiences.

I do not need to believe because of physical or psychological problems or a need to feel included, loved, and/ or certain. The ONLY reason I believe what I do is because I have determined for myself that my religion is true.

In brief, this is how I reason when it comes to God and Messengers of God. A man who claims to be a Messenger of God is either (a) a false prophet (deluded or a lying deceiver) or He is (b) a true Messenger of God. There are no other logical possibilities.

So I had to determine whether Baha'u'llah was a or b. It does not matter to me one iota what other alleged prophets or religions exist in the world because if Baha'u'llah who He claimed to be that means the Baha'i Faith is true, and the Bahai Writings explain what I need to know about those other prophets and religions as well as everything I will ever need to know about God and God's will for me and everyone else in the world. That means I do not need to refer to the Bible or any scriptures from any other religions although I believe that the spiritual teachings of all true religions are true.

 

[shunyadragon]

Hello, I'm new to online forums. I chose this one specifically because I think it is very thought provoking. I love understanding and questioning different religious beliefs. I hope to have a debate that is robust, intriguing, and intellectually honest. I'm happy to debate anyone from any religious discipline and educational background. I currently do not have anyone to debate. I'll edit my title post, if possible, once the affirmative position has been occupied. Thanks in advance to anyone who will agree to debate. I'm ready to be convinced. Are you?

I see an atheist with chip on the shoulder as big as a barn saying, "Let's see you knock it off!"

You can very easily read about ALL the possible choices for a religion or belief systems on line and make up your own mind, but ah . . . it appears there is a wall there and you have made up your mind already.

 

[infrabenji]

I see an atheist with chip on the shoulder as big as a barn saying, "Let's see you knock it off!"

You can very easily read about ALL the possible choices for a religion or belief systems on line and make up your own mind, but ah . . . it appears there is a wall there and you have made up your mind already.

I don’t know why you’re insulting me? Are you having a bad day? I’ve had many conversations on this forum which is different than reading an article or religious text. You don’t agree that debate is important? That the testing ideas against others is a negative practice? I have not so much made up my mind as I don’t believe we can be absolutely certain of anything. I was very clear that I am interested in discourse. I don’t know why I deserve to have my position misrepresented, accused of having a chip on my shoulder, and accused of being close-minded? Why do you go on a religious debates forum, find someone asking for a debate, and then tell them they could just go online and make up their own mind? Do you see how ridiculous that looks. What are you here for? To insult people apparently. Unexpected from a Baha’i.

 

[infrabenji]

I appreciate that you are a straight shooter because I am the same way. I never sugar coat what I say. If you read what I post to both atheists and Christians you would see that I never mince words, although I make an effort to be polite even when I am furious, which happens quite often when I am reading posts from certain people.

Clearly, you and I do not reason the same way but that does not mean we cannot be friends. All humans reason differently and how they reason is related to many factors, including factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, and adult experiences.

I do not need to believe because of physical or psychological problems or a need to feel included, loved, and/ or certain. The ONLY reason I believe what I do is because I have determined for myself that my religion is true.

In brief, this is how I reason when it comes to God and Messengers of God. A man who claims to be a Messenger of God is either (a) a false prophet (deluded or a lying deceiver) or He is (b) a true Messenger of God. There are no other logical possibilities.

So I had to determine whether Baha'u'llah was a or b. It does not matter to me one iota what other alleged prophets or religions exist in the world because if Baha'u'llah who He claimed to be that means the Baha'i Faith is true, and the Bahai Writings explain what I need to know about those other prophets and religions as well as everything I will ever need to know about God and God's will for me and everyone else in the world. That means I do not need to refer to the Bible or any scriptures from any other religions although I believe that the spiritual teachings of all true religions are true.

Thanks for the response. I’m glad we get along and have thought provoking talks. That’s pretty good you’ve gotten all the way to messenger. I’m still stuck on whether god even exists lol. How did you get to believe god could and does exist? I think in the hierarchy gods at the top, right? I would need to know that a god or gods exist or at least can exist before I took a human beings words about their god as fact. Certainly, not all religions are real, cults exist, and people are very gullible. I just got insulted by a Baha’i. Can you believe it. That’s pretty surprising. You guys are super peaceful. Totally took me by surprise lol.

 

[shunyadragon]

I don’t know why you’re insulting me? Are you having a bad day? I’ve had many conversations on this forum which is different than reading an article or religious text. You don’t agree that debate is important? That the testing ideas against others is a negative practice? I have not so much made up my mind as I don’t believe we can be absolutely certain of anything. I was very clear that I am interested in discourse. I don’t know why I deserve to have my position misrepresented, accused of having a chip on my shoulder, and accused of being close-minded? Why do you go on a religious debates forum, find someone asking for a debate, and then tell them they could just go online and make up their own mind? Do you see how ridiculous that looks. What are you here for? To insult people apparently. Unexpected from a Baha’i.

No, your post was ridiculous and insulting, because you are apparently not willing to investigate the religions and belief systems yourself and understand the possible choices yourself. You need to honest and ask specific questions IF you do not understand a belief system. Is reading comprehension a problem?

You apparently understand the Baha'i Faith, so . . . why ask? The Baha'i Faith is not a conformist religion where everyone thinks the same.

 

[Trailblazer]

Thanks for the response. I’m glad we get along and have thought provoking talks. That’s pretty good you’ve gotten all the way to messenger. I’m still stuck on whether god even exists lol. How did you get to believe god could and does exist? I think in the hierarchy gods at the top, right? I would need to know that a god or gods exist or at least can exist before I took a human beings words about their god as fact. Certainly, not all religions are real, cults exist, and people are very gullible. I just got insulted by a Baha’i. Can you believe it. That’s pretty surprising. You guys are super peaceful. Totally took me by surprise lol.

Were you raised as an atheist or as a religious believer? I was not raised with any religion or belief in God that I can recall. I was not searching for God or a religion when I stumbled upon the Baha'i Faith during my first year of college. I had no interest in God or religion. However, I have always liked learning new things so when I heard about Baha'i I read many books about the religion and also books written by the central figures of the Faith. Not long after that I came to believe it was a true religion because of the facts surrounding the religion and because of the spiritual teachings about the soul and the afterlife and the primary message of Baha'u'llah which is the oneness of mankind and unity of mankind, as well as the promise of world peace. I was also drawn to the social teachings such as the elimination of all forms of prejudice, universal education, and the equality of men and women. You can read about the Main Baha’i Teachings in this article: What Is the Baha'i Faith?

Anyhow, I get off track very easily because my mind is very tangential. What I wanted to say is that I joined the Baha'i Faith I really did not have a belief in God, I joined because I was drawn to the teachings since I am an idealist. As such I was not really that concerned as to whether God existed since my reason for joining was not because I wanted a relationship with God. It was only many decades after I joined that I started to concern myself with God and took that seriously. I assumed that God existed before that because after all I believed that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God, but I did not really know or care what that actually meant for my life or the lives of others.

It was only about eight and a half years ago when I started to think seriously about God. In this post to Adrian, another Baha'i on this forum, I explained what happened when I first I realized without a doubt that Baha'u'llah was speaking for God, which was about seven years ago.

On Adrian's thread How important are facts within your religious beliefs? I explained why I chose the Baha'i Faith.

adrian009 said:
Does historical fact matter or should religious myth be accorded the same status as fact? We’re discussing religion after all. How important are facts to you within your religious belief or worldview? Does it really matter? Why or why not?

Trailblazer said: Facts are more important to me than anything else, and that is why I became a Baha'i in the first place. The first thing I did when I heard of Baha'u'llah back in 1970 was look in the Encyclopedia Britannica to find out of Baha'u'llah was a real person. After that I read whatever books had been published about the Baha’i Faith at that time and I read the Writings of Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha, but what really convinced me that the Baha'i Faith was true was Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era because there were a lot of facts in there.

Emotions can be very misleading so I rely upon facts. As I always tell people, I never had any mushy-gushy feelings towards God or Baha'u'llah; I just know that the Baha'i Faith is the truth from God for this age because of the facts surrounding the life and mission of Baha'u'llah and because the theology is logical.

It was only 43 years after I had become a Baha'i that I connected with the Writings of Baha'u'llah on both an intellectual and an emotional level when I read Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh for the first time with serious intent, and that is when I realized without a doubt that Baha'u'llah was speaking for God. My life has never been the same since. Before that I had believed in God and I knew Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God; after that I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that God existed and Baha'u'llah was His Representative for this age.

 

[infrabenji]

No, your post was ridiculous and insulting, because you are apparently not willing to investigate the religions and belief systems yourself and understand the possible choices yourself. You need to honest and ask specific questions IF you do not understand a belief system. Is reading comprehension a problem?

You apparently understand the Baha'i Faith, so . . . why ask? The Baha'i Faith is not a conformist religion where everyone thinks the same.

My post politely asking for debate with anyone from any religious background was ridiculous and insulting? Or the post where I asked why you were making assumptions about me? Not willing to investigate religion or belief systems? I have a bachelors in theology and undergraduate degrees in religion and philosophy. I am currently studying law. So no, reading comprehension isn’t a problem. Isn’t the purpose of discourse on a religious forum to disseminate ideas and better understand what people believe and why? I understand if you’re no scholar but there are very smart people, from students to scholars, on here from many different religious disciplines. I find my discussions with many of them thought provoking and good natured. I’ve debated the Baha’i before and while we have yet to conclusively prove the veracity of Baha’i claims I continue to have dialogue because I don’t believe in absolute certainty or that I have found all the answers. Through this type of discourse I have become friends with people from many different personal, educational, and doctrinal backgrounds.