Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[infrabenji]

Yes. Thats right.
I looked at a bible as a skeptic. Gave it the best chance I could.
My conclusion is the bible is true as it says it is true. It is true according to its wordplay.
I know that is circular reasoning. But thats what it is.

The stories, prophecies, signs, and miracles told in the bible can be experienced by anyone at any time. They happen when the word connections are made in the mind of the individual.

It is very well written. The crazy stuff does actually makes sense.
As words of good and evil, truth and lies form the symbol of the Zodiac.


And it shows how to understand a lot of myths and fairy tales too.

Just because it’s circular doesn’t necessarily mean you’re wrong. It’s not the kind of evidence that would convince me but it sounds like you put a lot of time and energy figuring this stuff out. I have to say my favorite books of the Bible are 1st and 2nd Samuel 1st and 2nd kings and the chronicles I also love the story of Joseph.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Just because it’s circular doesn’t necessarily mean you’re wrong. It’s not the kind of evidence that would convince me but it sounds like you put a lot of time and energy figuring this stuff out. I have to say my favorite books of the Bible are 1st and 2nd Samuel 1st and 2nd kings and the chronicles I also love the story of Joseph.

It is something found all over the world. Same message.

I like the story in the bible about the philosophers stone and turning lead into gold.


As I've told @Tiberius before.

The philosophers stone is the heart of the philosopher:

Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the Lord of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the Lord of hosts. Zechariah 7:12



The order shows highest to lowest:

Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead, Numbers 31:22


So turning Lead into Gold would be making lowest into highest.
Lead - Tin - Iron - Brass - Silver - Gold


Brass, Silver, Gold are levels of heavens, and Iron is the Earth. They are the four directions.

And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. Deuteronomy 28:23





Everything on Earth is Iron. So their gold and silver is rusty as the "prophecy" says:

Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. James 5:3


Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: Matthew 6:19

But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: Matthew 6:20



But all the silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are consecrated unto the Lord: they shall come into the treasury of the Lord. Joshua 9:16

So the Earth and the heavens is the treasury.


I know its wordplay. But does it make any sense to you?

 

[Trailblazer]

Why would god need to send messengers?

Sorry I have not gotten back to you yet...

Last night you said:

That is why I offered to elaborate upon why God does not speak directly to anyone except His Messengers.

Briefly, God does not speak directly to anyone except His Messengers because only the Messenger can understand communication from God because they have a mind unlike our mind. Not only can the Messengers of God understand communication from God, they have the unique capacity to relay back to humans what they hear from God and put it in a form that we are able to read and understand.

All humans have a physical body and a soul, but only the Messengers of God have a third station, the Divine Reality. This is what differentiates them from ordinary human beings.

Messengers of God possess a physical station pertaining to the world of matter, and the other is the spiritual station. In other words, one station is that of a human being, and one, of the Divine Reality. It is because they possess both a human and a divine station that they can act as mediators between God and man.

The Messengers of God are another order of creation above an ordinary man. They are a mystery we cannot understand because they are on a level far above us. They possess a universal divine mind that is different than ours and that is why God can communicate to them through the Holy Spirit.

You also asked:

Why does god need messengers?

God does not need Messengers, humans need Messengers because that is the only way we can ever understand communication from God (see 1. above). We could never understand God if God spoke directly to us because ordinary humans do not have the inbuilt capacity to understand God since we were not created with that capacity since God never intended to communicate to ordinary humans.

Why would god need to send messengers?

God does not "need" to send us Messengers, God only sends them to us because of His all-pervasive mercy and grace. God has no needs so God could just sit back and let humans destroy themselves and the world, if God did not care about humans and His creation. God does not "need" humans for anything at all because God is fully self-sufficient and self-sustaining. God only created humans out of His love for us...

3: O SON OF MAN! Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

... and that is why God sends Messengers to guide us to the straight path, the right way of living our lives. That path will not only enable us to live on earth and make this world a better place for everyone to live in, but that path will also us prepare us for live in the spiritual world (heaven).

 

[infrabenji]

Sorry I have not gotten back to you yet...

Last night you said:

That is why I offered to elaborate upon why God does not speak directly to anyone except His Messengers.

Briefly, God does not speak directly to anyone except His Messengers because only the Messenger can understand communication from God because they have a mind unlike our mind. Not only can the Messengers of God understand communication from God, they have the unique capacity to relay back to humans what they hear from God and put it in a form that we are able to read and understand.

All humans have a physical body and a soul, but only the Messengers of God have a third station, the Divine Reality. This is what differentiates them from ordinary human beings.

Messengers of God possess a physical station pertaining to the world of matter, and the other is the spiritual station. In other words, one station is that of a human being, and one, of the Divine Reality. It is because they possess both a human and a divine station that they can act as mediators between God and man.

The Messengers of God are another order of creation above an ordinary man. They are a mystery we cannot understand because they are on a level far above us. They possess a universal divine mind that is different than ours and that is why God can communicate to them through the Holy Spirit.

You also asked:

Why does god need messengers?

God does not need Messengers, humans need Messengers because that is the only way we can ever understand communication from God (see 1. above). We could never understand God if God spoke directly to us because ordinary humans do not have the inbuilt capacity to understand God since we were not created with that capacity since God never intended to communicate to ordinary humans.

Why would god need to send messengers?

God does not "need" to send us Messengers, God only sends them to us because of His all-pervasive mercy and grace. God has no needs so God could just sit back and let humans destroy themselves and the world, if God did not care about humans and His creation. God does not "need" humans for anything at all because God is fully self-sufficient and self-sustaining. God only created humans out of His love for us...

3: O SON OF MAN! Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

... and that is why God sends Messengers to guide us to the straight path, the right way of living our lives. That path will not only enable us to live on earth and make this world a better place for everyone to live in, but that path will also us prepare us for live in the spiritual world (heaven).

Alright, good to hear from you hope you got lots of rest. Let’s take this one step at a time. I’m quoting your first claim. I’m not trying to pick apart everything your saying. It just seems to go smoother and faster if we address one claim at a time.

Briefly, God does not speak directly to anyone except His Messengers because only the Messenger can understand communication from God because they have a mind unlike our mind.

Many people claim to be messengers of god. What is your mechanism for telling which messenger is right and which is wrong?

 

[infrabenji]

It is something found all over the world. Same message.

I like the story in the bible about the philosophers stone and turning lead into gold.


As I've told @Tiberius before.

The philosophers stone is the heart of the philosopher:

Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the Lord of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the Lord of hosts. Zechariah 7:12



The order shows highest to lowest:

Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead, Numbers 31:22


So turning Lead into Gold would be making lowest into highest.
Lead - Tin - Iron - Brass - Silver - Gold


Brass, Silver, Gold are levels of heavens, and Iron is the Earth. They are the four directions.

And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. Deuteronomy 28:23





Everything on Earth is Iron. So their gold and silver is rusty as the "prophecy" says:

Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. James 5:3


Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: Matthew 6:19

But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: Matthew 6:20



But all the silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are consecrated unto the Lord: they shall come into the treasury of the Lord. Joshua 9:16

So the Earth and the heavens is the treasury.


I know its wordplay. But does it make any sense to you?

It’s really fun and interesting wordplay though. Isn’t iron the most valuable of all those metals? Isn’t the value of silver and gold just an arbitrary designation of value? During the first part of the Iron Age iron was incredibly valuable. The oldest Hebrew manuscripts including the Dead Sea scrolls date to around this time and iron was way way more valuable than gold or silver.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

It’s really fun and interesting wordplay though. Isn’t iron the most valuable of all those metals? Isn’t the value of silver and gold just an arbitrary designation of value? During the first part of the Iron Age iron was incredibly valuable. The oldest Hebrew manuscripts including the Dead Sea scrolls date to around this time and iron was way way more valuable than gold or silver.

Yeah. I think there was a feast held by Napoleon that had the lower class with gold utensils while the elite had aluminum ones.



Do you want to know why I believe in crazy things like the existence of giants?
Because I think its the same thing.

Listen to this:


This verse explains the height of giants:

Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? Matthew 6:27


And this one:

But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart. 1 Samuel 16:7



Was Jesus a giant?

And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man Luke 2:52



So could giants be the measurements of a someones thought?


There is a Hadith that says Adam was 60 cubits tall. And men have been getting smaller since Adam.
Have mens thoughts been getting lower since Adam?


I hear Goliath is a giant. It is said in the bible he has an armour of Brass and a Spear.

So I think that is the level of his height according to the three levels I showed earlier. He is at the height of Brass and Spear.


Does this make any sense to you?
Could that be an explanation why scientists cant find huge skeletons?

Might be the same reason why Alchemists couldnt figure out how to turn lead into gold.
Its all about the height.

 

[infrabenji]

Yeah. I think there was a feast held by Napoleon that had the lower class with gold utensils while the elite had aluminum ones.



Do you want to know why I believe in crazy things like the existence of giants?
Because I think its the same thing.

Listen to this:


This verse explains the height of giants:

Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? Matthew 6:27


And this one:

But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart. 1 Samuel 16:7



Was Jesus a giant?

And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man Luke 2:52



So could giants be the measurements of a someones thought?


There is a Hadith that says Adam was 60 cubits tall. And men have been getting smaller since Adam.
Have mens thoughts been getting lower since Adam?


I hear Goliath is a giant. It is said in the bible he has an armour of Brass and a Spear.

So I think that is the level of his height according to the three levels I showed earlier. He is at the height of Brass and Spear.


Does this make any sense to you?
Could that be an explanation why scientists cant find huge skeletons?

Might be the same reason why Alchemists couldnt figure out how to turn lead into gold.
Its all about the height.

Love that verse out of Samuel. One of my favs. I’m not sure these are really unique ideas I haven’t heard before. On most other threads I visit from time to time people are outright hostile. Most of the people still on this thread are really smart and really nice. We’re always down for cool new ideas. Though I am a skeptic I’m not boring. There’s this one guy rise who just yells logical fallacy at the top of his lungs into the computer screen at everyone he talks to. He’s got like a thousand posts and 80 likes. It’s tragic.

 

[Trailblazer]

Many people claim to be messengers of god. What is your mechanism for telling which messenger is right and which is wrong?

This is rather involved so I will explain it as soon as I have time, probably tomorrow. I am beat today so I can no longer think.

 

[infrabenji]

This is rather involved so I will explain it as soon as I have time, probably tomorrow. I am beat today so I can no longer think.

Sounds good. Talk soon.

 

[ratiocinator]

If you do not want the beliefs of a believer then don't bother posting to believers because we are going to tell you what we believe.

I was looking more for the reasons why they believe what they believe. Some evidence and or logic to support it.

I already told you the reason why i think it is more logical to look at the newest religion rather than the older religions.

But that was based entirely on your belief being true. It is only more logical if I already accept that you're right.

Of course I base my arguments upon that, just as you base your arguments on what you believe.

Most of what I've said is actually based on what you've said you believe. The rest is about how somebody who doesn't just accept it, is supposed to conclude that it's true.

No, it is not a valid comparison because God is not a human who can "show up" so to compare God to a teacher is the fallacy of false equivalence.

No, it isn't. God could 'show up' in some obvious (not but involving its 'full essence') way if it's omnipotent, you already admitted that (#687) but then said it chooses to only communicate via messengers.

God did give us the curriculum and the material through His Messenger, and that is the only way you will ever get it.

But it's simply not obvious the somebody who doesn't start out with a belief. There is just a cacophony of different religious folk all telling us that they have the truth.

You just raised a very good point. You are correct that most people just 'go along' with the religion they were raised in, the faith of their family and culture. God does not want them to do that, God wants them to recognize the latest Messenger that He sent. That would require just as much effort for a religious believer to seek and find the latest Messenger as it would require of an atheist.

Which makes it even more unjust and unfair. It looks like your god really doesn't like human nature very much. And, of course, if you're lucky enough to be raised in the religion of the latest massager, you get let off the effort. At the other extreme, it can be very bad for your well-being and even life-threatening to abandon one's faith in some cultures.

I never said that they have 'found God', I only said that they believe in a God or gods.

You did actually:-

If God was hiding, how do you think so many people have found God? According to these statistics, 84 percent of the world population has a faith.

You can't really have it both ways. You can't use the popularity of religious belief in general to show that god and its message aren't hidden (even if it was a valid argument, which it isn't, for the reasons I've explained) if you think most of them have not found the correct message and are not doing what god wants.

 

[Meow Mix]

How will you ever recover?

 

[infrabenji]

How will you ever recover?

@Meow Mix you’re the moon and stars.

 

[Muffled]

Your god has communication difficulties?

I do not believe He is the one with the difficulty.

 

[Muffled]

There's more than an element of truth to your statement, don't get me wrong. However, calling him a fire god doesn't quite paint an accurate picture either to me, as it reminds me too much of "four elements" beliefs as found in theosophy and some versions of witchcraft.

So I'd say the truth is between the two, but more leaning toward him not being a fire god, and instead so much more.

Classical elements typically refer to water, earth, fire, air, and (later) aether, which were proposed to explain the nature and complexity of all matter in terms of simpler substances. Usually, aether isn't a common element.[1][2] Ancient cultures in Greece, Ancient Egypt, Persia, Babylonia, Japan, Tibet, and India had all similar lists - Wikipedia

I believe from what I read in the Veda that His is another name for the one God. I think some aspects of God get attributed to that name as though a separate god existed but I do not believe that is the case.

 

[Muffled]

How will you ever recover?

Is that a turtlesaurus? Claymation can make any kind of saurus it wants I would think but then anthropologists put meat on the bones don't they? lol.

 

[samtonga43]

God never intended to communicate to ordinary humans.

Is this something you believe or something you know?

 

[Trailblazer]

I was looking more for the reasons why they believe what they believe. Some evidence and or logic to support it.

That is a bit too vague. What do you mean by evidence and logic?

But that was based entirely on your belief being true. It is only more logical if I already accept that you're right.

No, that is based upon logic. It is not logical to believe in a religion that has scriptures that were written thousands of years ago because those scriptures were written for people living thousands of years ago, NOT for people living in the present age of reason and science. You should not accept that I am right, you should use your OWN logical reasoning abilities.

Most of what I've said is actually based on what you've said you believe. The rest is about how somebody who doesn't just accept it, is supposed to conclude that it's true.

Nobody who doesn't accept it is supposed to conclude that it's true. They are supposed to do an independent investigation to determine for themselves if it is true or not, and only after they are convinced that it is true should they believe it is true.

No, it isn't. God could 'show up' in some obvious (not but involving its 'full essence') way if it's omnipotent, you already admitted that (#687) but then said it chooses to only communicate via messengers.

It is irrelevant that God is omnipotent. God is a spirit so God cannot 'show up' such that we can see Him with our physical eyes or hear Him with our physical ears. So what God does is manifest Himself in the person of the Messenger who is also referred to as a Manifestation of God. The Manifestation of God is a Messenger of God, a Servant of God, a Representative of God, and the Voice of God. He has many roles on Earth. Also, it is important to note that He is MORE than just a human, He has a twofold nature, a human nature and a divine nature, and that is why he can understand God and humans and why He has the unique capacity to act as an intermediary between God and humans. This is logical.

But it's simply not obvious the somebody who doesn't start out with a belief. There is just a cacophony of different religious folk all telling us that they have the truth.

I fully understand that because I did not start out with a belief. You see, I was not raised in any religion or believing in God. I came upon my religion in adulthood and I have to investigate it and determine if it was true or not. It was never an emotional thing for me, it was all based upon information, reason and logic.

I can understand how it would be confusing if you are listening to religious folk all telling us that they have the truth, and that is why you should not listen to other people but rather investigate for yourself to determine what is the truth.

Which makes it even more unjust and unfair. It looks like your god really doesn't like human nature very much. And, of course, if you're lucky enough to be raised in the religion of the latest messenger, you get let off the effort. At the other extreme, it can be very bad for your well-being and even life-threatening to abandon one's faith in some cultures.

Why is it unjust or unfair for God to expect effort on the part of an atheist or a religious believer and require them to seek and find the latest Messenger if they really want to know the truth?

As I said above, I was not raised in my religion. I was rather fortunate to discover the Baha'i Faith during my first year of college, and probably because I was never a Christian or any other religion I was able to recognize it as the truth. It is more difficult if someone was raised in another religion to shake off those beliefs and become a Baha'i but it is not impossible because most Baha'is were raised in another religion, As for atheists what us difficult for them is that they have no conception of God unless they are raised in a religion such as Christianity, in which case their conceptions of God are going to be distorted.

You did actually:

If I ever said they "found God" I meant that figuratively, not literally, as nobody ever "finds" God. What I meant is that they found a religion whereby they can believe that God exists.

You can't really have it both ways. You can't use the popularity of religious belief in general to show that god and its message aren't hidden (even if it was a valid argument, which it isn't, for the reasons I've explained) if you think most of them have not found the correct message and are not doing what god wants.

I can have it both ways because religious people believe in God even though they do not have the latest message from God.

Also, the latest message from God is NOT hidden, it is all over the internet! I understand that unless people have a reason to search for the Baha'i Faith they would not be looking for it, but once they have been told about it it is not difficult to research it.

You are correct in saying that most of them have not found the correct message and are not doing what God wants, but who is to blame for that? If they never heard of the Baha'i Faith we could say that the Baha'is are to blame fro not getting the message out, but once people have the message the ball in in their court because all humans have a brain to think and free will to choose what to believe.

 

[Trailblazer]

Is this something you believe or something you know?

Something I believe.

 

[Tiberius]

I do not believe He is the one with the difficulty.

If the difficulty lies with the people and God hasn't taken that into account (and let's face it, he'd know about it, and know how to deal with it), then yeah, it seems that God either does have the difficulty, he's set a standard that he knows we can't meet, or he isn't worthy to be called God.

 

[Trailblazer]

If the difficulty lies with the people and God hasn't taken that into account (and let's face it, he'd know about it, and know how to deal with it), then yeah, it seems that God either does have the difficulty, he's set a standard that he knows we can't meet, or he isn't worthy to be called God.

Bingo! God sets a standard that He knows 'most people' cannot meet, but a few people can and do meet that standard.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.