Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[WonderingWorrier]

Sounds like the Bible Code. That was debunked as pure nonsense when they discovered they could use it to find any message they wanted, and that it also worked on Harry Potter.

So your argument looks to be extremely weak.

Are you talking about the Bible code - Equidistant Letter Sequence method that was debunked being used on Moby Dick?

Bible code - Wikipedia

I'm not talking about that.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why would I look at any of them? If I were to, your reasoning regarding the latest is entirely based on your own view being true. There is no objective information to tell us which one may contain truth or, for that matter, that any of them do.

No, there is no objective information, ll you have is your rational mind which includes your logical abilities. Why would Bronze Age holy books pertain to the modern age of science?

Either god is perfectly capable of showing up (in some form) without destroying everything or it isn't omnipotent.

You do not set the parameters for God. Omnipotence does not mean God 'can do anything.' It means God is all-powerful. God cannot do anything that is not within His nature to do. For example, God cannot become a man. God also cannot show up inn His entire Essence without destroying the world. I know that because it is in scriptures, which is the ONLY way to know anything about God.

Why does it want effort? If it has an important message and it hasn't made it obvious, it is being cruel and unfair.

Why would this be any different from anything else in life? Don't you have to make an effort to get a college degree or a job, for example? Is a teacher cruel and unfair for requiring you to do homework in order to get a grade? Is your boss cruel and unfair for expecting you to work for your salary? What comes from doing nothing? Nothing.

God does not have to answer to you as to why He requires you to make an effort. God is omnipotent so God sets the parameters for you, you do not set the parameters for God. That is logic 101.

“The incomparable Creator hath created all men from one same substance, and hath exalted their reality above the rest of His creatures. Success or failure, gain or loss, must, therefore, depend upon man’s own exertions. The more he striveth, the greater will be his progress.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 81-82

I see no evidence of genuine messages from any god, just many, many people making often contradictory claims.

How would you recognize a genuine message from God?

If I have to go looking for it, it isn't obvious.

It is not supposed to be obvious, that is how God set it up. If it was obvious it would be too easy and everyone would recognize it. in which case God could not separate the wheat from the chaff.

It's not a matter of liking it or not. Evidence is "the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid". Specifically, something is useless as evidence if it's subjective or consistent with the falsity of the proposition as well as its truth. What solid, objective facts are there in holy books that support the proposition that there is a god and that the books are valid messages? I've read the bible and it certainly doesn't contain any evidence.

You first need to look at the facts and information surrounding the religion which indicate if the religion is true, you do not look at the scriptures first. There are so many facts and information about the Baha'i Faith that it would make anyone's head spin.

And, again, if god insists we go searching through holy books for evidence of an important message, it's playing a cruel game of hide-and-seek. I would want nothing to do with such a god, even if it existed.

I did not say to go searching through the holy books, I suggested you read about the religion first.

There is no hide-and-seek, there is just some effort that is required. If you do not want anything to do with a God that has some requirements that's your choice because you have free will to choose.

 

[ratiocinator]

Why would Bronze Age holy books pertain to the modern age of science?

Why not, if they were genuine messages from a god?

Omnipotence does not mean God 'can do anything.' It means God is all-powerful. God cannot do anything that is not within His nature to do. For example, God cannot become a man. God also cannot show up inn His entire Essence without destroying the world.

Okay, but why would it need its 'entire essence' to directly communicate?

I know that because it is in scriptures, which is the ONLY way to know anything about God.

Begging the question.

Why would this be any different from anything else in life? Don't you have to make an effort to get a college degree or a job, for example? Is a teacher cruel and unfair for requiring you to do homework in order to get a grade? Is your boss cruel and unfair for expecting you to work for your salary? What comes from doing nothing? Nothing.

Neither my teachers nor my employers hid their existence or what they wanted me to do. There is nothing obvious that suggests there is a god or what it wants us to do.

God does not have to answer to you as to why He requires you to make an effort. God is omnipotent so God sets the parameters for you, you do not set the parameters for God. That is logic 101.

If god exists and created people, and what it does makes no sense to a human mind trying to approach things rationally, that is not the fault of the human.

It is not supposed to be obvious, that is how God set it up. If it was obvious it would be too easy and everyone would recognize it. in which case God could not separate the wheat from the chaff.

You said it was obvious; "There is an obvious message from God and evidence for God" (#652). And this has already been covered. God is supposed to be omniscient, it could separate people without playing cruel and irrational games of hide-and-seek

There is no hide-and-seek, there is just some effort that is required.

But what you've said indicates that there is a game of hide-and-seek. If god had made it obvious that it wanted humans to make some sort of specified effort, then that would be different, but there is no obvious reason at all to think there even is a god.

If you do not want anything to do with a God that has some requirements that's your choice because you have free will to choose.

Free will with respect to an omnipotent, omniscient creator is logically incoherent anyway, but it's not about a god that has requirements, it's about a god that has requirements that it then hides (along with its actual existence) from people. That is cruel and unjust.

 

[infrabenji]

Why would I look at any of them? If I were to, your reasoning regarding the latest is entirely based on your own view being true. There is no objective information to tell us which one may contain truth or, for that matter, that any of them do.

Either god is perfectly capable of showing up (in some form) without destroying everything or it isn't omnipotent.


Why does it want effort? If it has an important message and it hasn't made it obvious, it is being cruel and unfair.


I see no evidence of genuine messages from any god, just many, many people making often contradictory claims.


If I have to go looking for it, it isn't obvious.


It's not a matter of liking it or not. Evidence is "the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid". Specifically, something is useless as evidence if it's subjective or consistent with the falsity of the proposition as well as its truth. What solid, objective facts are there in holy books that support the proposition that there is a god and that the books are valid messages? I've read the bible and it certainly doesn't contain any evidence.

And, again, if god insists we go searching through holy books for evidence of an important message, it's playing a cruel game of hide-and-seek. I would want nothing to do with such a god, even if it existed.

I really enjoy how you explain your material simply and without using logical fallacies by name. I’m kind of getting bored of hearing people mis-applying fallacies to arguments or doing it so much the arguments loses it’s own interest. I think I’m going try to keep it as simple as possible and address each claim one at a time, as simply as possible, going forward. Thanks for the inadvertent pick me up. Hope you’re having a great day.

 

[Tiberius]

Yes, in a limited sense.

Limited how?

Yes, they are just different for the parts that are not cover by those axioms.

Care to go into more detail about this?

 

[Tiberius]

Are you talking about the Bible code - Equidistant Letter Sequence method that was debunked being used on Moby Dick?

Bible code - Wikipedia

I'm not talking about that.

Sounds like the same basic ideas. I mean, you're going in there looking for patterns to support the beliefs you've already decided on.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why not, if they were genuine messages from a god?

The messages were from God but the messages do not pertain to the world in which we live today. The spiritual teachings are still valid because spiritual truth is eternal, but the social teachings and the laws and the message from the Messengers are not what humanity needs in this age. They are what humanity needed when those holy books were revealed.

Okay, but why would it need its 'entire essence' to directly communicate?

God would not need His Essence but God does not directly communicate to anyone except His Messengers, sorry. If you want the full explanation as to why God doesn't do that, I can post it to you since I already have several explanations written up and saved in Word documents, since this question comes up so often.

Begging the question.

To beg a question means to assume the conclusion of an argument—a type of circular reasoning. This is an informal fallacy, in which an arguer includes the conclusion to be proven within a premise of the argument, often in an indirect way such that its presence within the premise is hidden or at least not easily apparent.[1]
Begging the question - Wikipedia

No, it is not begging the question because I did not assume anything was proven within a premise of the argument. Logic does not apply to religious beliefs since they can never be proven to be true or false, for obvious logical reasons. If you thunk there is another way to know about God, have at it and good luck on your search.

Neither my teachers nor my employers hid their existence or what they wanted me to do. There is nothing obvious that suggests there is a god or what it wants us to do.

God is not hiding anything either, except His Essence. To compare what God does to what humans (teachers and employers) do is the fallacy of false equivalence because God is not equivalent to a human.

False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency.[1] A colloquial expression of false equivalency is "comparing apples and oranges".

This fallacy is committed when one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude, when equivalence is not necessarily the logical result.[2] False equivalence is a common result when an anecdotal similarity is pointed out as equal, but the claim of equivalence doesn't bear scrutiny because the similarity is based on oversimplification or ignorance of additional factors.
False equivalence - Wikipedia

If god exists and created people, and what it does makes no sense to a human mind trying to approach things rationally, that is not the fault of the human.

I never said it was your fault, but you have to use your rational mind before you can understand it rationally, and then if it still makes no sense to you it doesn't.

You said it was obvious; "There is an obvious message from God and evidence for God" (#652). And this has already been covered.

Sorry I said that, my mistake. It is obvious to me that it is a message from God but it is not going to be obvious to everyone because God does not want to make it that easy.

God is supposed to be omniscient, it could separate people without playing cruel and irrational games of hide-and-seek.

God already knows who is the wheat and who is the chaff because God is omniscient, but God wants people to separate themselves by their own actions. There is no game of hide-and-seek because God only hides His Essence and you don't need to know that in order to know that God exists. Not even the Messengers of God know the Essence of God, but they are able to receive communication from God and relay it to humans in a form that they can comprehend, called scriptures.

But what you've said indicates that there is a game of hide-and-seek. If god had made it obvious that it wanted humans to make some sort of specified effort, then that would be different, but there is no obvious reason at all to think there even is a god.

As I said above, there is no game of hide but there is a game of seek. If you do not seek you will not find, that is just logical. Closing your mind to the possibilities and saying that God should have done something differently than sending Messengers who reveal scriptures is not seeking.

“If a man were to declare, ‘There is a lamp in the next room which gives no light’, one hearer might be satisfied with his report, but a wiser man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, when he finds the light shining brilliantly in the lamp, he knows the truth!” Paris Talks, p. 103

God did not make it obvious about the special effort required in the older holy books such as the Bible, but God has now explained why we need to make a special effort in the Baha'i Writings, yet another reason to look at the new holy books which have lots of explanations regarding what God expects, how God operates, and why He operates that way. You will not get these explanations by reading the Bible.

Free will with respect to an omnipotent, omniscient creator is logically incoherent anyway, but it's not about a god that has requirements, it's about a god that has requirements that it then hides (along with its actual existence) from people. That is cruel and unjust.

God is not hiding anything except His essence. If God was hiding, how do you think so many people have found God? According to these statistics, 84 percent of the world population has a faith.

Because most faiths have a religious Founder or what I call a Messenger that means most people believe in God because of a Messenger. We know that Christians and Muslims believe in a Messenger and they comprise 55% of the world population. Hindus and Buddhists comprise most of the rest of believers and they also have a Messenger (or messengers) they believe in. It does not matter if you call them a Messenger; they are men who founded the religions, so they are Mediators between God and man. There are a few stragglers, believers who believe in God but not a Messenger; this comprises about 9% of the world population, but that is not the norm. The point is that with no Messengers, very few people would believe in God.

Only 7% of the world population are atheists:
According to sociologists Ariela Keysar and Juhem Navarro-Rivera's review of numerous global studies on atheism, there are 450 to 500 million positive atheists and agnostics worldwide (7% of the world's population), with China having the most atheists in the world (200 million convinced atheists). Demographics of atheism - Wikipedia

That indicates that the atheists are in a small minority so they are missing something as they are unable to see what is so "obvious" to all those other people. I am trying to approach this with logical reasoning.

 

[infrabenji]

The messages were from God but the messages do not pertain to the world in which we live today. The spiritual teachings are still valid because spiritual truth is eternal, but the social teachings and the laws and the message from the Messengers are not what humanity needs in this age. They are what humanity needed when those holy books were revealed.

God would not need His Essence but God does not directly communicate to anyone except His Messengers, sorry. If you want the full explanation as to why God doesn't do that, I can post it to you since I already have several explanations written up and saved in Word documents, since this question comes up so often.

To beg a question means to assume the conclusion of an argument—a type of circular reasoning. This is an informal fallacy, in which an arguer includes the conclusion to be proven within a premise of the argument, often in an indirect way such that its presence within the premise is hidden or at least not easily apparent.[1]
Begging the question - Wikipedia

No, it is not begging the question because I did not assume anything was proven within a premise of the argument. Logic does not apply to religious beliefs since they can never be proven to be true or false, for obvious logical reasons. If you thunk there is another way to know about God, have at it and good luck on your search.

God is not hiding anything either, except His Essence. To compare what God does to what humans (teachers and employers) do is the fallacy of false equivalence because God is not equivalent to a human.

False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency.[1] A colloquial expression of false equivalency is "comparing apples and oranges".

This fallacy is committed when one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude, when equivalence is not necessarily the logical result.[2] False equivalence is a common result when an anecdotal similarity is pointed out as equal, but the claim of equivalence doesn't bear scrutiny because the similarity is based on oversimplification or ignorance of additional factors.
False equivalence - Wikipedia

I never said it was your fault, but you have to use your rational mind before you can understand it rationally, and then if it still makes no sense to you it doesn't.

Sorry I said that, my mistake. It is obvious to me that it is a message from God but it is not going to be obvious to everyone because God does not want to make it that easy.

God already knows who is the wheat and who is the chaff because God is omniscient, but God wants people to separate themselves by their own actions. There is no game of hide-and-seek because God only hides His Essence and you don't need to know that in order to know that God exists. Not even the Messengers of God know the Essence of God, but they are able to receive communication from God and relay it to humans in a form that they can comprehend, called scriptures.

As I said above, there is no game of hide but there is a game of seek. If you do not seek you will not find, that is just logical. Closing your mind to the possibilities and saying that God should have done something differently than sending Messengers who reveal scriptures is not seeking.

“If a man were to declare, ‘There is a lamp in the next room which gives no light’, one hearer might be satisfied with his report, but a wiser man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, when he finds the light shining brilliantly in the lamp, he knows the truth!” Paris Talks, p. 103

God did not make it obvious about the special effort required in the older holy books such as the Bible, but God has now explained why we need to make a special effort in the Baha'i Writings, yet another reason to look at the new holy books which have lots of explanations regarding what God expects, how God operates, and why He operates that way. You will not get these explanations by reading the Bible.

God is not hiding anything except His essence. If God was hiding, how do you think so many people have found God? According to these statistics, 84 percent of the world population has a faith.

Because most faiths have a religious Founder or what I call a Messenger that means most people believe in God because of a Messenger. We know that Christians and Muslims believe in a Messenger and they comprise 55% of the world population. Hindus and Buddhists comprise most of the rest of believers and they also have a Messenger (or messengers) they believe in. It does not matter if you call them a Messenger; they are men who founded the religions, so they are Mediators between God and man. There are a few stragglers, believers who believe in God but not a Messenger; this comprises about 9% of the world population, but that is not the norm. The point is that with no Messengers, very few people would believe in God.

Only 7% of the world population are atheists:
According to sociologists Ariela Keysar and Juhem Navarro-Rivera's review of numerous global studies on atheism, there are 450 to 500 million positive atheists and agnostics worldwide (7% of the world's population), with China having the most atheists in the world (200 million convinced atheists). Demographics of atheism - Wikipedia

That indicates that the atheists are in a small minority so they are missing something as they are unable to see what is so "obvious" to all those other people. I am trying to approach this with logical reasoning.

Please make one claim at a time at least. Writing novels filled with unfalsifiable claims doesn’t do anyone any good. I know you want to help people. Let’s take it one piece at a time. If we can’t explain something simply than we don’t really understand it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Please make one claim at a time at least. Writing novels filled with unfalsifiable claims doesn’t do anyone any good. I know you want to help people. Let’s take it one piece at a time. If we can’t explain something simply than we don’t really understand it.

My method of answering posts is to go through the post I receive and respond to everything in it, unless it is something that poster has told me before or that poster is rude or insulting. So that is why my post to ratio was so long.

I understand everything I believe and I can explain anything I believe but it is not always that simple to explain in a few words. That is why I offered to elaborate upon why God does not speak directly to anyone except His Messengers.

 

[infrabenji]

My method of answering posts is to go through the post I receive and respond to everything in it, unless it is something that poster has told me before or that poster is rude or insulting. So that is why my post to ratio was so long.

I understand everything I believe and I can explain anything I believe but it is not always that simple to explain in a few words. That is why I offered to elaborate upon why God does not speak directly to anyone except His Messengers.

That’s the ticket. Let’s address one claim at a time. If you don’t mind I’ll post it.

That is why I offered to elaborate upon why God does not speak directly to anyone except His Messengers.

Why does god need messengers?

 

[Trailblazer]

That’s the ticket. Let’s address one claim at a time. If you don’t mind I’ll post it.

That is why I offered to elaborate upon why God does not speak directly to anyone except His Messengers.

Why does god need messengers?

It is late here so I will have to explain this tomorrow. All I will say for now is that God does not need any Messengers, humans need Messengers. I will leave you in limbo for now as to why that is the case, sorry. I need to eat and sleep sometime.

 

[infrabenji]

It is late here so I will have to explain this tomorrow. All I will say for now is that God does not need any Messengers, humans need Messengers. I will leave you in limbo for now as to why that is the case, sorry. I need to eat and sleep sometime.

No worries, I totally understand. I hope you have an excellent rest.

 

[ratiocinator]

The messages were from God but the messages do not pertain to the world in which we live today. The spiritual teachings are still valid because spiritual truth is eternal, but the social teachings and the laws and the message from the Messengers are not what humanity needs in this age. They are what humanity needed when those holy books were revealed.

Remember that we started this by you saying that made sense to read the most recent book to find a message from god, but your entire case is based on your beliefs being true. They don't work for somebody who is sceptical and sees no real reason to read any of them let alone start with one particular one. This goes back to the message from god (if it exists) being hidden.

If you want the full explanation as to why God doesn't do that, I can post it to you since I already have several explanations written up and saved in Word documents, since this question comes up so often.

Does it contain any evidence or reasoning that address the fact that it would be a very unfair and unjust way to go about things?

No, it is not begging the question because I did not assume anything was proven within a premise of the argument.

The problem is that you're debating with somebody who doesn't accept your beliefs and you keep basing your arguments on your beliefs being true.

God is not hiding anything either, except His Essence. To compare what God does to what humans (teachers and employers) do is the fallacy of false equivalence because God is not equivalent to a human.

It was you that brought up the comparison. In response to my claim that god (if it exists) is being cruel and unfair by hiding and expecting us to go looking for it, you said "Don't you have to make an effort to get a college degree or a job, for example? Is a teacher cruel and unfair for requiring you to do homework in order to get a grade? Is your boss cruel and unfair for expecting you to work for your salary?" (#682).

It also remains the case that if god exists, both its existence and its message are hidden, as is the requirement to go looking in holy books for said message. It is perfectly valid to compare it to a teacher who never turns up, doesn't give you the curriculum, doesn't tell you where to find it or when the exam is, and then fails you because you didn't learn the material or pass the exam. In fact god would be worse than that as it's not even obvious there's a course to be taken or an exam you need to pass.

I never said it was your fault, but you have to use your rational mind before you can understand it rationally, and then if it still makes no sense to you it doesn't.

I have used my rational mind to deduce that if god exists and is doing as you say, it must be cruel and unjust.

As I said above, there is no game of hide but there is a game of seek. If you do not seek you will not find, that is just logical. Closing your mind to the possibilities and saying that God should have done something differently than sending Messengers who reveal scriptures is not seeking.

I'm not closing my mind but I have no rational reason at all to think there is anything real to seek. I'm not going to spend my life looking into every apparently baseless claim people make.

God did not make it obvious about the special effort required in the older holy books such as the Bible, but God has now explained why we need to make a special effort in the Baha'i Writings, yet another reason to look at the new holy books which have lots of explanations regarding what God expects, how God operates, and why He operates that way. You will not get these explanations by reading the Bible.

It really is rather pointless to use the assumption of the truth of your faith to persuade me of the truth of your faith.

God is not hiding anything except His essence. If God was hiding, how do you think so many people have found God? According to these statistics, 84 percent of the world population has a faith.

This is basically an argumentum ad populum fallacy except it doesn't really work even at that level because this 84% believe in different gods. Whichever god or gods somebody believes in, most people think they are wrong. And that applies just as much to people who think they are all equivalent in some way. There are literally thousands of gods that humans believe in or have believed in - not to mention all the other supernatural and mystical beliefs people have about other spirits and beings. The beliefs are also contradictory, so most people must have got things wrong.

People are often superstitious and irrational (especially at seeing agency and deliberate action where none exists) and many simply go along with whatever faith they were raised in. I doubt that anybody is entirely rational about everything and addressing these issues takes an effort. And, talking about effort, surely the easiest thing in the world is not to 'rock the boat' and just go along with the faith of your family and culture. Doesn't this rather undermine your claim that god wants us to make an effort? I mean, if you're trying to suggest that all these people (84%) have 'found' god?

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Sounds like the same basic ideas.

No. It doesn't.

I mean, you're going in there looking for patterns to support the beliefs you've already decided on.

No. I didn't.


It seems you are not listening.



I try to make it simple to understand.

The hill is at a higher level than the valley, just as the river is at a higher level than the sea.
I think the language of the wheel is the sound of the mountain stream. Listen.

I've put some bible keywords into 3 different groups/levels:


Level 1 - Level 2 - Level 3
Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream
North - West - East.
Brass - Silver - Gold
Moon - Star - Sun
Cattle - Goats - Sheep
Spear - Sword - Bow
Corn - Oil - Wine.



I can show bible verse after verse that show the placement of these words in the levels that I have put them. The verses show my reasoning for the placement.

Are you at least able to grasp this concept?

Can anyone?

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Im talking about a sentence structure pattern of very precise detail. Not vague.

It is exactly as the bible says: The sun and moon are in fixed positions/unmoving:

The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear. Habakkuk 3:11

Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow

Other verses confirm this.
But it seems that is difficult for people to comprehend.

 

[Trailblazer]

Remember that we started this by you saying that made sense to read the most recent book to find a message from god, but your entire case is based on your beliefs being true. They don't work for somebody who is sceptical and sees no real reason to read any of them let alone start with one particular one. This goes back to the message from god (if it exists) being hidden.

From my perspective it is not hidden. If you do not want the beliefs of a believer then don't bother posting to believers because we are going to tell you what we believe. I already told you the reason why i think it is more logical to look at the newest religion rather than the older religions.

Does it contain any evidence or reasoning that address the fact that it would be a very unfair and unjust way to go about things?

No it doesn't because God not communicating directly to everyone is not unfair or unjust.

The problem is that you're debating with somebody who doesn't accept your beliefs and you keep basing your arguments on your beliefs being true.

Of course I base my arguments upon that, just as you base your arguments on what you believe.

It also remains the case that if god exists, both its existence and its message are hidden, as is the requirement to go looking in holy books for said message. It is perfectly valid to compare it to a teacher who never turns up,

No, it is not a valid comparison because God is not a human who can "show up" so to compare God to a teacher is the fallacy of false equivalence.

doesn't give you the curriculum, doesn't tell you where to find it or when the exam is, and then fails you because you didn't learn the material or pass the exam. In fact god would be worse than that as it's not even obvious there's a course to be taken or an exam you need to pass.

God did give us the curriculum and the material through His Messenger, and that is the only way you will ever get it.

I have used my rational mind to deduce that if god exists and is doing as you say, it must be cruel and unjust.

Deduce whatever you want to deduce. I used my rational mind to deduce that God is fair and just.

I'm not closing my mind but I have no rational reason at all to think there is anything real to seek. I'm not going to spend my life looking into every apparently baseless claim people make.

If you do not want to spend the time then I suggest you stop posting to believers since it is obvious that you have no interest in what we have to offer.

It really is rather pointless to use the assumption of the truth of your faith to persuade me of the truth of your faith.

I am not trying to persuade you of anything. i was just responding to what you said and explaining the difference between the the Bible and the Baha'i scriptures.

This is basically an argumentum ad populum fallacy except it doesn't really work even at that level because this 84% believe in different gods. Whichever god or gods somebody believes in, most people think they are wrong. And that applies just as much to people who think they are all equivalent in some way. There are literally thousands of gods that humans believe in or have believed in - not to mention all the other supernatural and mystical beliefs people have about other spirits and beings. The beliefs are also contradictory, so most people must have got things wrong.

It does not matter if they believe in different gods or different religions, my point was that they believe in a God or gods and they came to believe via a Messenger, holy man, or whatever you choose to call him, who acted as a intermediary between man and God. So the reason they believe in God is NOT because God spoke to them directly.

There is a good explanation as to why religious beliefs are contradictory but I don't want to go off on a tangent right now.

People are often superstitious and irrational (especially at seeing agency and deliberate action where none exists) and many simply go along with whatever faith they were raised in. I doubt that anybody is entirely rational about everything and addressing these issues takes an effort. And, talking about effort, surely the easiest thing in the world is not to 'rock the boat' and just go along with the faith of your family and culture. Doesn't this rather undermine your claim that god wants us to make an effort? I mean, if you're trying to suggest that all these people (84%) have 'found' god?

You just raised a very good point. You are correct that most people just 'go along' with the religion they were raised in, the faith of their family and culture. God does not want them to do that, God wants them to recognize the latest Messenger that He sent. That would require just as much effort for a religious believer to seek and find the latest Messenger as it would require of an atheist.

I never said that they have 'found God', I only said that they believe in a God or gods. God wants them to accept His newest Messenger and understand what He revealed about God and God's will for this age, but that won't happen for a very long time because most religious believers are mired in their older religions. Meanwhile at least they have the spiritual teachings of their religion to guide them through life.

 

[infrabenji]

It is late here so I will have to explain this tomorrow. All I will say for now is that God does not need any Messengers, humans need Messengers. I will leave you in limbo for now as to why that is the case, sorry. I need to eat and sleep sometime.

Why would god need to send messengers?

 

[Tiberius]

No. It doesn't.

Yeah, it actually does.

No. I didn't.


It seems you are not listening.



I try to make it simple to understand.

The hill is at a higher level than the valley, just as the river is at a higher level than the sea.
I think the language of the wheel is the sound of the mountain stream. Listen.

I've put some bible keywords into 3 different groups/levels:


Level 1 - Level 2 - Level 3
Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream
North - West - East.
Brass - Silver - Gold
Moon - Star - Sun
Cattle - Goats - Sheep
Spear - Sword - Bow
Corn - Oil - Wine.



I can show bible verse after verse that show the placement of these words in the levels that I have put them. The verses show my reasoning for the placement.

Are you at least able to grasp this concept?

Can anyone?

So it's just word play.

 

[infrabenji]

No. It doesn't.



No. I didn't.


It seems you are not listening.



I try to make it simple to understand.

The hill is at a higher level than the valley, just as the river is at a higher level than the sea.
I think the language of the wheel is the sound of the mountain stream. Listen.

I've put some bible keywords into 3 different groups/levels:


Level 1 - Level 2 - Level 3
Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream
North - West - East.
Brass - Silver - Gold
Moon - Star - Sun
Cattle - Goats - Sheep
Spear - Sword - Bow
Corn - Oil - Wine.



I can show bible verse after verse that show the placement of these words in the levels that I have put them. The verses show my reasoning for the placement.

Are you at least able to grasp this concept?

Can anyone?

I have no idea what you’re talking about. Are you trying to prove the Bible is true using the Bible or something?

 

[WonderingWorrier]

I have no idea what you’re talking about. Are you trying to prove the Bible is true using the Bible or something?

Yes. Thats right.
I looked at a bible as a skeptic. Gave it the best chance I could.
My conclusion is the bible is true as it says it is true. It is true according to its wordplay.
I know that is circular reasoning. But thats what it is.

The stories, prophecies, signs, and miracles told in the bible can be experienced by anyone at any time. They happen when the word connections are made in the mind of the individual.

It is very well written. The crazy stuff does actually makes sense.
As words of good and evil, truth and lies form the symbol of the Zodiac.


And it shows how to understand a lot of myths and fairy tales too.