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Are we products?

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by atanu, Oct 25, 2019.

?
  1. Mechanism

    31.6%
  2. God

    10.5%
  3. We are the awareness

    42.1%
  4. Other

    21.1%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. atanu

    atanu Member
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    If we are created either by some mechanism or by a benevolent or a ruthless God, we are left to chance that we may or may not come to know our truth. Why should natural selection lead to competence for truth? Why should a creator God let us remove veil/s of ignorance over our intellect-senses?

    On the other hand, if we are the awareness itself, we are the truth itself. Whatever exists in consciousness is true, since consciousness is true. Not only can we know the relative truths of the objects that are apparently external to our mind-senses, but being the subject itself, we can potentially know the source of our knowing.

    What do you believe and why?
     
    #1 atanu, Oct 25, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2019
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  2. ADigitalArtist

    ADigitalArtist Well-Known Member
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    I thought at first the thread was going to be about humans as products, commoditized by data collection and advertisement agencies.

    I believe interactions of material components (i.e. brains) preceed consciousness.
     
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  3. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    Same here.

    Consciousness and the ability for reasoning are marvelous developments, but I would be hard pressed to find any reason to suspect them to have been _meant_ in any way, shape or form. That means that I discard the first two options; they are not products of either some mechanism nor a God - at least, not of a _competent_ God.

    Nor would I attribute them to an atman; our awareness is just too conditioned to circunstances for that hypothesis to carry any weight for me. That means that IMO "we" are _not_ the awareness, although I suppose that the awareness may be said to be us at each moment.

    Maybe I could vote for "Other: (Accidental developments and/or pure chance)". But I am not quite sure that it fits, either.
     
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  4. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member
    It's My Birthday!

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    Imagine someone wearing a virtual reality gear trying to live his live with a complete mismatch between what he sees and what is happening in the real world. It would be extremely difficult to do so and much easier surviving if our perceptions match the real world. Natural selection therefore benefits the latter.
     
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  5. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
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    As a good Advaita Vedanta disciple I voted 'We are the awareness'.

    Consciousness is the only fundamental thing, The rest and the product called 'us' is ultimately consciousness.
     
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  6. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue The gentle embrace of twilight has become my guide

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    I tend to think we are organic mechs controlled and operated by billions of living cells with an utterly amazing way of communicating.

    Even more amazing , Consciousness may be actually the result of a virus! That strattler between the definition of death and life!

    An Ancient Virus May Be Responsible for Human Consciousness | Live Science
     
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  7. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    Just a question. I never read in Hindu Scriptures that God is a "benevolent" God
    I did read that God is: a) Omniscient + b) Omnipotent + c) Omnipresent
    But some Westerners add: d) Omnibenevolent

    Do you, @atanu, know if this is also said/claimed in Hindu Scriptures?

    To me this term "Omnibenevolent" totally makes no sense to attribute this to God
     
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  8. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    I believe in "Sat Chit Ananda" ... "Being Awareness Bliss" as our "True Reality"
     
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  9. Willamena

    Willamena Just me
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    I chose "we are awareness" itself, based on your lovely description, here.
     
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  10. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    I think our consciousness is a product of the unconscious mind.

    Consciously we are basically kept ignorant of the data/information gathered from the environment by the unconscious mind. Instead we know of the external world through an interface created by the unconscious mind. The unconscious mind takes the information and creates a visual interpretation along with the other senses and feelings for our conscious self to experience.

    This IMO leads to a sense of duality. What we experience, that we experience seems to have a separate existence from reality. The unconscious mind feeds us these experiences and it all seems a mystery to us consciously.

    I suspect the feeling of unity (with the universe) and or (nothingness) is simply another experience created by the unconscious mind. Our conscious experience, what we experience is is totally governed by the unconscious mind. Whereas spirituality says this feeling of unity or nothingness is our true self, I think understanding our conscious awareness is only a small part of what we are is closer to the truth. While our conscious awareness seems pretty significant to us, it is actually pretty insignificant to the whole of what we are. For the most part, consciously, we are just along for the ride.The unconscious mind is in the driver's seat whereas our conscious awareness is in the passenger seat watching all of the pretty scenery go by. Occasionally we may get to change the station of the radio but that's about it.
     
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  11. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    There is an Atman. How it got here I have no clue. How it exists is a deep mystery. Everyone is an Atman.

    What are the implications of knowing atmans exist? Well they could be physically based and end up dissolved away at death. Or there is an unknown physics at work. Or perhaps it's ethereal.
     
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  12. Salvador

    Salvador RF's Swedenborgian

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    Our genetic code's Creator has indeed signed his/her/its/their mark stored there in his/her/its/their invented genetic coding sent to Earth from an extraterrestrial intelligent designer.

    "There is evidence for a mark of extraterrestrial intelligence left in our genetic code as evident by how the numeric and semantic message of 37 appears in our genetic code. Each codon relates to 3 other particular codons having the same particular type of initial nucleobase and sequential nucleobase subsequently then followed by a different ending nucleobase. Half of these 4 set of codon groups ( whole family codons ) each code for the same particular amino acid. The other half of those 4 set of codon groups ( split codons ) don't code for the same amino acid. So then, in the case of whole family codons, there are 37 amino acid peptide chain nucleons for each relevant nucleobase determinant of how a particular amino acid gets coded. Hence, the meaningful numeric and semantic message of 37 gets unambiguously and factually conveyed to us descendants of our cosmic ancestor(s) with our genetic code invented by a superior intelligence beyond that of anybody presently bound to Earth." --- Salvador ( December, 2018 )

    "It has been repeatedly proposed to expand the scope for SETI, and one of the suggested alternatives to radio is the biological media. Genomic DNA is already used on Earth to store non-biological information. Though smaller in capacity, but stronger in noise immunity is the genetic code. The code is a flexible mapping between codons and amino acids, and this flexibility allows modifying the code artificially. But once fixed, the code might stay unchanged over cosmological timescales. Thus, it represents a reliable storage for an intelligent signature, if that conforms to biological and thermodynamic requirements. As the actual scenario for the origin of terrestrial life is far from being settled, the proposal that it might have been seeded intentionally cannot be ruled out. A statistically strong signal in the genetic code is then a testable consequence of such scenario. Here we show that the terrestrial code displays a thorough precision orderliness matching the criteria to be considered an informational signal. Simple arrangements of the code reveal an ensemble of arithmetical and ideographical patterns of the same symbolic language. Accurate and systematic, these underlying patterns appear as a product of precision logic and nontrivial computing rather than of stochastic processes. The patterns are profound to the extent that the code mapping itself is uniquely deduced from their algebraic representation. The signal displays readily recognizable hallmarks of artificiality. Besides, extraction of the signal involves logically straightforward but abstract operations, making the patterns essentially irreducible to any natural origin. Plausible way of embedding the signal into the code and possible interpretation of its content are discussed. Overall, while the code is nearly optimized biologically, its limited capacity is used extremely efficiently to store non-biological information."

    The "Wow! signal" of the terrestrial genetic code
    Vladimir I. shCherbak, Maxim A. Makukov
    (Submitted on 27 Mar 2013 (v1), last revised 12 Jun 2017 (this version, v4))

    Journal reference: Icarus, 2013, 224(1), 228-242
    DOI: 10.1016/j.icarus.2013.02.017
    Cite as: arXiv:1303.6739
     
  13. Howard Is

    Howard Is Lucky Mud

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    When I have no idea I feel peace.

    I have never heard a theory or belief that made me feel any better.

    It makes no difference how you describe it, whether Sanskrit, Hebrew, Calculus, Celtic or Cryptic.

    Blah blah blah
    Maha blah
    Para maha blah
    Svaha
     
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  14. atanu

    atanu Member
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    What you say is true. The ‘what and why’ of peace are in mind and words. Yet you possibly could not realise that awareness itself is peace if you were a stone.
     
  15. atanu

    atanu Member
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    I agree mostly.

    By ‘consciousness’, I mean the ability to discern. Our conscious waking or dreaming states are the manifest results. Most however mistake the effect of consciousness to be the consciousness.

    The reality that runs through and discerns the waking, dreaming, and sleeping, is the Me. It cannot be known through mind or words.
     
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  16. atanu

    atanu Member
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    Omnibenevolence makes sense to me. The non dual reality that has no fear is called Shivam (pure auspiciousness) in Vedic scripture.
     
  17. Howard Is

    Howard Is Lucky Mud

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    But I’m not a stone, and that peace has nothing to do with any philosophical proposition.
    In fact, disabusing oneself of philosophical propositions is essential to experiencing unfabricated natural peace.

    In the Bhagavad Gita, Krsna says to “abandon the flowery language of the Vedas, and come directly to Me”. That is my paraphrasing from memory.
     
  18. atanu

    atanu Member
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    Gita is a retelling of Upanishads, wherein Shri Krishna teaches ‘absolute surrender’ (sharanagati). Are you also pointing to that? Is ‘Peace that passeth all understanding’ attained without understanding?
     
    #18 atanu, Oct 27, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2019
  19. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    Sanskrit:
    Shivam, Pure auspiciousness is different.
    This is pure Advaita(non duality)

    Latin:
    Omni=All, bene=good, volens=willing
    Omnibenevolent=All good willing
    This is easily taken as Dvaita (duality)
    Unless you maybe say "good" means "God"

    If it was an Atheist, it was a smart Atheist, taking the original "Omnipresent" out and replacing it with "Omnibenevolent"

    Sanskrit: (Below 2 are proper descriptions)
    "Sat-Chit-Ananda"
    "Truth-Consciousness-Bliss"

    "Satyam-Shivam-Sundaram"
    "Truth-Godliness-Beauty"

    Latin: (Below 3 are proper attributes)
    Omniscient=All knowing
    Omnipotent=All mighty/powerful
    Omnipresent=All present

    Omnibenevolence makes no sense:
    1) God is known to be beyond judgment
    2) "Good" presupposes "not good"(dual)
    3) And "willing" can mean Divine Will
    Divine Will MUST happen. God allows Duality and in duality there is also "not good". So there is inconsistency.

    Of course only "God" is real, never changing, as seen from Advaita. And as God is said to be "Goodness" as in "pure auspiciousness" you can say "all is good" or "all is God" even. Sai Baba said in this context "I only see good". If you put on green glasses you see the world as green. If you put on Divine glasses you only see Divine, goodness.

    And God willed all, so Omnibenevolent can be used, but only from advaita POV, meaning "All Go(o)d Willing". It can't be used from dualistic POV, as is done below by Atheists trying to disprove God.

    Hence it makes sense, that I never once heard Sai Baba mention Omnibenevolent (I have all His books digitalised, so it's easy search, but I did not find it).
    I also did not read it in any Hindu Scripture nor in Koran either (but I obviously did not read all, so it could be there). Hence my question to you.

    This is how Atheists reason when you claim God is Omnibenevolent:
    • God exists.
    • God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent.
    • An omnibenevolent being would want to prevent all evils.
    • An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
    • An omnipotent being has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
    • A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
    • If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God, then no evil exists.
    • Evil exists
    If it was an Atheist, it was a smart Atheist, taking the original "Omnipresent" out and replacing it with "Omnibenevolent"
     
    #19 stvdv, Oct 28, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2019
  20. Howard Is

    Howard Is Lucky Mud

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    It is not attained.
    It is the nature of mind. No explanation is required.

    Some instruction in shamatha and an indication of the process of vipassana is helpful.
    But I have observed that concern with ‘getting it nailed down’ mostly just gets in the way of meditation.
     
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