• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Are we products?

We and our awareness are products of ......


  • Total voters
    19

atanu

Member
Premium Member
It is. Don't you perceive us as existing ?

I meant whether you yourself is a perception (that perceives the universe)?

Or are you the reality that perceives the objects of experience? So, the ultimate question is who or what are you?
 
Last edited:

atanu

Member
Premium Member
if ever I find a way to download my postwork
in a lump
I will sort through the mess I've made and publish my work

but there seems a trick to doing so and I haven't figured it out ….yet

Why do you think you and your awareness is born of a mechanism?
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
So basically a mechanism is a purely physical cause that gives rise to a phenomenon like consciousness?

That would mean that a specific arrangement of molecules achieves the goal of producing consciousness.

Sounds very short on explanatory power. It also should be considered faith and not fact.

The belief that an AI can be truly conscious comes from this faith.

It makes more sense that consciousness is an entity and essence all it's own.

Pure physics isn't going to be anything but physical with no extraneous properties. Thus a gap in physicalist explanation will always remain.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Why do you think you and your awareness is born of a mechanism?
it's a chemical mechanism

five senses …..all different from each other
but all five deliver this reality into your mind

experience would be the variable

your reaction to this post will be your own
the next guy will reply differently than you might

and I believe the awareness goes on after death

we are just aware of different things
how other people think and feel will more direct

you will not be able to hide.....your dreams
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
it's a chemical mechanism

five senses …..all different from each other
but all five deliver this reality into your mind

experience would be the variable

your reaction to this post will be your own
the next guy will reply differently than you might

and I believe the awareness goes on after death

we are just aware of different things
how other people think and feel will more direct

you will not be able to hide.....your dreams

I am surprised.

How do you think that physical entities characterised by physical parameters such as mass, spin, charge, etc. give rise to consciousness ( which itself is undefinable but which enable all defining activities)?

Furthermore, if mechanism is source your consciousness, what is the probability that you have any choice or any real power of discernment?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I am surprised.

How do you think that physical entities characterised by physical parameters such as mass, spin, charge, etc. give rise to consciousness ( which itself is undefinable but which enable all defining activities)?

Furthermore, if mechanism is source your consciousness, what is the probability that you have any choice or any real power of discernment?
picture yourself as the First.....
yes you can

as Creator.....

having declared......I AM!....
substance takes form
the darkness is split
the firmament begins to ….'gel'

and then you realize.....you are alone
you are the First

the creation responds to your Voice
but it does not really.....respond

you can divide your Presence.....be in more than one place at one moment
you can be your own Reflection
but it remains You
talking to your Self

and you have nothing else to work with but your created substance
so you draw unto it and say.....Let there be light

and so doing water and earth take form as well

and chemistry becomes the habit of choice

and behold.....chemistry has been given the ability of …...CHOICE!
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
Why should natural selection lead to competence for truth?
The universe certainly has within it the possibility for consciousness and its contents, and the mind, to arise. The mind thinks and can determine truth. So the universe contains all this in addition to all the other weird things such as: energy, entropy, time, quantum fields and the standard model, information, the laws of nature, the fact of existence itself.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
Not only can we know the relative truths of the objects that are apparently external to our mind-senses, but being the subject itself, we can potentially know the source of our knowing.
I think this assertion is a stretch. Just because we know something via the mind doesn't imply there is source of knowing. Unless you mean the potential for the mind to exist and to know.

I agree there is such a thing as mind, but as an aspect of the universe, as part of the universe. There is no evidence that such a thing is external to the universe.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
picture yourself as the First.....
yes you can
as Creator.....
having declared......I AM!....

That suggests that you should opt for the second option : "We and our awareness are creation of God".

I wished to show that "We and our awareness are creation of God" (2nd option) or "We and our awareness are creation of mechanism" (1st option) are nearly same.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
The universe certainly has within it the possibility for consciousness and its contents, and the mind, to arise. The mind thinks and can determine truth. So the universe contains all this in addition to all the other weird things such as: energy, entropy, time, quantum fields and the standard model, information, the laws of nature, the fact of existence itself.

I think this assertion is a stretch. Just because we know something via the mind doesn't imply there is source of knowing. Unless you mean the potential for the mind to exist and to know.

I agree there is such a thing as mind, but as an aspect of the universe, as part of the universe. There is no evidence that such a thing is external to the universe.

In my definition, consciousness is not only the 'manifest conscious awareness' but it is the 'ability to discern and know' itself.

Why do you think that this competence is a product and not the inherent nature of existence? What evidence you have for your stand?
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
Why do you think that this competence is a product and not the inherent nature of existence?
I don't claim consciousness is a product. I merely claim that the possibility of consciousness is inherent in the universe as it is. It manifests when conditions are suitable.

Just as molecules form based on the inherent possibility for atoms to exist and for there to be chemical bonds. Molecules are not "products".
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
That suggests that you should opt for the second option : "We and our awareness are creation of God".

I wished to show that "We and our awareness are creation of God" (2nd option) or "We and our awareness are creation of mechanism" (1st option) are nearly same.
we might be on the verge of agreement

it is written....God did breathe a soul into Man

the form called Man has been turned loose upon the earth
our awareness then plays to this form
and the events suffered by this form ...in turn
forms a unique individual
 
Top