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Are we all created equal?

Maybe....except that Jefferson himself wrote that slavery is evil! But he tried to justify his ownership through his own underlying racism, writing that "'freeing slaves is like abandoning children." And yet again, he also freed a number of his own slaves.

No, he knew. But he also had that very human knack for cognitive dissonance not getting in the way.

I have thought about this and also wondered about the conditions of slaves freed but not given proper funds to really survive or make a good living or any living outside of being slaves, and also not really knowing too much about anything, not having been taught how to read or write or conduct business, it can be incredibly cruel. They would need a lot of training, preparation, funds, and whatever else in order not to be basically forced into surviving through crime or something while a lot of people would likely refuse to hire them or trust them, its just an absolute mess. Was Jefferson also the guy who was familiar with the Qur'an or brought it up and owned a copy? He was also one of the guys who had children with his slaves?

I don't know, in a way, he may have had a point about their release, but then if he thought of them as children or child-like (tarded, in the sense of being slow or backwards due to how they were never taught normal things in a normal way and grew up with major intellectual handicaps due to basically the abuse of being a slave, having their development tarded or slowed and distorted by the conditions and treatment and class level and tasks) why didn't he properly educate them? Or did he?

Maybe he educated some at least. Anyway, the whole thing really sucks, humans are total scum, and to think that it was only just very recently that these things have become at least popularly unpopular, and just a few decades ago, which is AMAZING to think, just a few decades ago there were slaves, and even fewer decades ago there was full blown segregation, and even now there are ghettos and poverty and crime which might be (or definitely are) results of the slave business, the freeing of slaves without proper means or educations, the ongoing racism and maltreatment and stigma, and all the rest, including campaigns by supervillains to funnel in drugs through vulnerable populations leading to lots of addiction and problems, not entirely dissimilar to what happened to many Native peoples as well.

So, usually what I learn from these lessons are that Governments tend to be Monster Inc. type organizations hell-bent on bad and evil decisions that lead to ongoing suffering and disasters. New York is an old city which seems like it has been utterly abandoned, and Montreal as well, trash everywhere, insane people roaming around, crime, hostility, intoxication, and its like everyone is acting like practically nothing can be done, while huge amounts of money and taxes are still paid by everyone and expensive real estate and whatever, but the money is just being shoved into holes apparently because these places often seem utterly abandoned in parts, even though they are world famous cities and popular tourist destinations.

Then there are even more abandoned places than these, where those seemed unmanageable due to their size or age or something and almost too far gone and sometimes seeming almost lawless and terrifying, there are other places like the well known house of Death, Deathtroit, which seem like all administration has just left the place to die as if a nuke went off there or something. Then if someone tries to become a politician to help people, they get shot down one way or another or resisted, and blocked at every turn if they try to make the slightest move forward to improve things anywhere ever.

So, I seem to have an extremely pessimistic view of things, and because of that, I don't like thinking about it. It might be what troubled Jefferson as well, though his world was far more opened (I think?) and not yet so overwhelmingly blocked and far gone as the one he helped create through his (understandable) lack of foresight.

Some places I've traveled to or seen, man, they were like hell in parts, so nuts, so dirty, so lawless and disorderly, so unsafe feeling, people literally howling and yowling and screaming, people getting carjacked (in Chicago) right in broad daylight or their tires stolen and other crazy stuff.

Is this the humans created equal thread? Well, once they come out of their momma, and even before, due to their momma doing drugs or drinking or smoking or who knows what, or some weird medicines they were taking, the kids come out messed up, into a messed up world, into very widely differing circumstances, and there seems to be less means or services and assistance for some, and for others the world is at their fingertips (and they still end up psycho too for some reason). It should be equal, but I don't really see that it is, from beginning to end.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I think that there is a lot of consensus that we are not equal as individuals, that our potential can be limited both physically and situationally. There is also some agreement that this should be recognized and accounted for in some way.
The hard part is in figuring out what a more equitable society means. I'm not sure there is a general expectation that everyone in society should be economically equivalent, but the idea of there being a limit on a wealth gap in society seems to be growing.
If economic prosperity correlates to potential, should we consider granting a minimum level of economic well-being to everyone to compensate for unequal potential? And how do we factor in effort? Some with equivalent potential may work harder to achieve their "Happiness", as Jefferson describes it. Should this be considered when addressing wealth disparity?
Where I live many of the wealthy folks were borne wealthy, and private education prepared them and their abilities further.
I know that there are those who would take and take and take, some through greed, others through laziness, yet others through total inability to level out their lives.
But a minimum income for all adults is doable, and decent health, subsistence, education and housing provision for all.
There will always be benefit cheats just as there are super rich who don't pay their taxes.
Maybe one day...... :)
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Let's give Jefferson the benefit of the doubt and assume that he was not a moron

Moron? No. Hypocrite? Yes.
So the question becomes: What might he have had in mind?

Perhaps context would help. So, what about:

“We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, [in] that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness….”

Yet their/his Creator was OK with those being born into wealth owning people with not so fortunate circumstances. When his slaves escaped, he tried very hard to get them back.

[7 September 1769]

TSJN-01-01-02-pb-0033-fig1.gif

Run away from the subscriber in Albemarle, a Mulatto slave called Sandy, about 35 years of age, his stature is rather low, inclining to corpulence, and his complexion light; he is a shoemaker by trade, in which he uses his left hand principally, can do coarse carpenters work, and is something of a horse jockey; he is greatly addicted to drink, and when drunk is insolent and disorderly, in his conversation he swears much, and his behaviour is artful and knavish. He took with him a white horse, much scarred with traces, of which it is expected he will endeavour to dispose; he also carried his shoemakers tools, and will probably endeavour to get employment that way. Whoever conveys the said slave to me in Albemarle, shall have 40 s. reward, if taken up within the county, 4 l. if elsewhere within the colony, and 10 l. if in any other colony, from

thomas jefferson.
One also has to wonder why this slave was a mulatto with a light complexion. Did Thomas, or his dad, diddle this slave's mother?
 
Moron? No. Hypocrite? Yes.


Yet their/his Creator was OK with those being born into wealth owning people with not so fortunate circumstances. When his slaves escaped, he tried very hard to get them back.

[7 September 1769]

TSJN-01-01-02-pb-0033-fig1.gif

Run away from the subscriber in Albemarle, a Mulatto slave called Sandy, about 35 years of age, his stature is rather low, inclining to corpulence, and his complexion light; he is a shoemaker by trade, in which he uses his left hand principally, can do coarse carpenters work, and is something of a horse jockey; he is greatly addicted to drink, and when drunk is insolent and disorderly, in his conversation he swears much, and his behaviour is artful and knavish. He took with him a white horse, much scarred with traces, of which it is expected he will endeavour to dispose; he also carried his shoemakers tools, and will probably endeavour to get employment that way. Whoever conveys the said slave to me in Albemarle, shall have 40 s. reward, if taken up within the county, 4 l. if elsewhere within the colony, and 10 l. if in any other colony, from

thomas jefferson.
One also has to wonder why this slave was a mulatto with a light complexion. Did Thomas, or his dad, diddle this slave's mother?

Wow, that is cool, and almost like a modern police profile trying to track a wanted person, and yeah, its quite the story if this is actually one of his children or something, and he ran away (which is dangerous and hard) so its unlikely that they felt that conditions were wonderful under Thomas Jefferson.

This was extremely interesting, even with an interesting picture, wow, history is very eye opening for me, terrifying, imagine being "born equal" under conditions like being a slave, for no crime at all except born in certain conditions, YIKES! I'm scaring myself. So when I scare myself, I thank Chaotic Free Probability (which can be called God as well), for the wonderful circumstances I was born in and given compared to others in time and place and even for the skin pigment and ancestry I was given, everything rather advantageous one way or another for getting along with the most people possible and being the least troubled. Even so, due to the circumstances of my birth, I've had diseases and whatever, which interfered with my ability to study, work, and function like other people during those crucial years, so yet again, equality or equalizing factors were not available or provided, but at least I was not born a slave or a woman or whatever (or mentally ill person, handicapped person, or of visibly African or Latino descent), which seem like terrible existences.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Moron? No. Hypocrite? Yes.
Yes, although that is (a) old news and (b) not particularly relevant to this thread.

On the other hand, how we adjudge the views and comments of folks like Jefferson, and Darwin and Lincoln is a challenging and meaningful question.
 
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MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
All humans have one common ancestor. So, we are equal.
Is a shared ancestry the same as being equal? Especially in regards to all the different categories of comparison that have been mentioned in this thread?
 

syo

Well-Known Member
Is a shared ancestry the same as being equal? Especially in regards to all the different categories of comparison that have been mentioned in this thread?
I think, yes. We are equal and unique. Uniqueness doesn't mean unequality. :)
 

MNoBody

Well-Known Member
In the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson wrote, “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, ...”.

Was Thomas Jefferson correct in stating that we are all created equal? Equal in what way? If not, should we rethink the Constitution?
liberty, equality, fraternity, were alchemical principles never grasped by the coarse bulk of society, which is the element needing refining in society.
all men are demonstrably not created equal in appearance of nature/character, yet with effort the whole could form a symbiotic relationship with all its disparate elements, which would be great, and likely was the aim [in general] of these fathers of the republic.
 

MNoBody

Well-Known Member
Maybe....except that Jefferson himself wrote that slavery is evil! But he tried to justify his ownership through his own underlying racism, writing that "'freeing slaves is like abandoning children." And yet again, he also freed a number of his own slaves.

No, he knew. But he also had that very human knack for cognitive dissonance not getting in the way.
having read some history, I am aware that slavery was a custom of the land, as normal then as buying a horse today......so despite what we think of such a state of mind or norms.....that was the way life was, too bad....and some people who bought slaves actually treated them with dignity and respect, since they did not agree with the custom and so mitigated its harmful effects on the enslaved by being helpful to them....many freed their slaves when they could, as the laws permitted them [but some communities are just prejudiced and never embraced this idea]
reading some of the african american historians will show that not all white americans were seen as evil slave owners.
which tradition continues to present times, like the civil rights movement where people of other ethnicities banded together with their african family and supported their struggle for equal respect and opportunity in society [for which many suffered quite badly for this open show of solidarity]
 

MNoBody

Well-Known Member
a quick search turned up a few fun facts regarding jefferson
-likely he had children with one of his plantation women according to the modern research which one can find on the wiki regarding sally hemings
37d568e3f75d79092ad8436280f630dd.jpg
fun-facts-thomas-jefferson-proposed-to-end-slavery-wtf.png
Jefferson+on+Slavery+(1784).jpg
fun-facts-thomas-jefferson-studied-the-quran.png
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
@MNoBody, your posts are interesting, but I'm not sure what you're trying to get at.

Look, I don't denigrate Jefferson -- in many ways I admire him and his thought. I've been to his plantation Monticello, and explored it and its history thoroughly.

But I cannot forget, given that my point was how often humans defy what they claim to believe most heartily through nothing but cognitive dissonance, that for all his fine words, Jefferson freed only 10 of his 600 slaves -- and they were all from the same family. I cannot forget that Jefferson -- or his foremen -- applied the whip liberally to the slaves at Monticello.

I cannot forget, given his opinions about the intelligence of blacks, that you can try to measure people's intelligence by just surveying what they know (ignoring what opportunities they've had), or you could try to teach them -- and see how much they can learn. That's an attitude, an attitude that truly defines who we are.

I can't forget, though you say "that's the way life was, too bad," that there were many people who thought about the matter, and knew in their very hearts that it was not only "too bad," but also wrong.
 

MNoBody

Well-Known Member
@MNoBody, your posts are interesting, but I'm not sure what you're trying to get at.

Look, I don't denigrate Jefferson -- in many ways I admire him and his thought. I've been to his plantation Monticello, and explored it and its history thoroughly.

But I cannot forget, given that my point was how often humans defy what they claim to believe most heartily through nothing but cognitive dissonance, that for all his fine words, Jefferson freed only 10 of his 600 slaves -- and they were all from the same family. I cannot forget that Jefferson -- or his foremen -- applied the whip liberally to the slaves at Monticello.

I cannot forget, given his opinions about the intelligence of blacks, that you can try to measure people's intelligence by just surveying what they know (ignoring what opportunities they've had), or you could try to teach them -- and see how much they can learn. That's an attitude, an attitude that truly defines who we are.

I can't forget, though you say "that's the way life was, too bad," that there were many people who thought about the matter, and knew in their very hearts that it was not only "too bad," but also wrong.
hey, honestly I am not always certain either....
I come here frequently as certain unexpected physical impediments have made past-times like this a sort of therapy, to keep the mind working and improving..... people assume, I don't advertise, just work at keeping up with the rest of the troops from my spot in a mash unit [so to speak....walking wounded....just so you know....]
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Oh. Sorry, I thought this thread was are-we-all-created-equal.

I must be mista...Wait. No. It's right there in the searchbox.

And whether Jefferson is a moron, a hypocrite, or an artichoke is irrelevant to the question in that we are all created equal.
 

MNoBody

Well-Known Member
And whether Jefferson is a moron, a hypocrite, or an artichoke is irrelevant to the question in that we are all created equal.
not really, since it provides insight into the life and mind of one who helped craft that piece of literature, which is always relevant [in some sense...certainly not dogmatic sense though]:)
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
not really, since it provides insight into the life and mind of one who helped craft that piece of literature,
Irrelevant. Had he said "apples are fruit," his life and mind have nothing whatsoever to do with the accuracy of the statement.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Obviously not. So, for example, some are more capable of discerning Jefferson's intent than others.

The quote in question reads:

“We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness….”​

Let's give Jefferson the benefit of the doubt and assume that he was not a moron, and that he was perfectly aware that, for example, some are created larger, or heavier, or ... the list is near endless. So the question becomes: What might he have had in mind?

Perhaps context would help. So, what about:

“We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, [in] that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness….”​

Wow! Could it really be that simple?
Searched for Jefferson's first draft, got this from the Library of Congress. A transcribed version of Jefferson's first draft, found here.
The first draft version of the sentence we have been discussing:
"We hold these truths to be sacred & undeniable; that all men are created equal & independant, that from that equal creation they derive rights inherent & inalienable, among which are the preservation of life, & liberty, & the pursuit of happiness;..."
In this draft, what concept of equality is conveyed?
 
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