Are we all created equal?

[MikeF]

To those on this thread who feel that the hypocrisy of Thomas Jefferson, the man, as well as other founding fathers, diminishes the value of the ideals expressed in the founding documents of the United States, here is an excerpt from a speech given by Frederick Douglass on July 5, 1852 entitled “What to the Slave Is the Fourth of July?”:

"... Fellow Citizens, I am not wanting in respect for the fathers of this republic. The signers of the Declaration of Independence were brave men. They were great men too — great enough to give fame to a great age. It does not often happen to a nation to raise, at one time, such a number of truly great men. The point from which I am compelled to view them is not, certainly, the most favorable; and yet I cannot contemplate their great deeds with less than admiration. They were statesmen, patriots and heroes, and for the good they did, and the principles they contended for, I will unite with you to honor their memory..."

Douglass was an excellent orator. The whole speech is worth reading.

 

[paarsurrey]

Are we all created equal?

One has stated "Religion: None", please.
Does "None" accept that the humans have been "created" in the first place and then "by whom" to ask the question posed by one, please?
Right, please?

Regards

 

[MikeF]

Are we all created equal?

One has stated "Religion: None", please.
Does "None" accept that the humans have been "created" in the first place and then "by whom" to ask the question posed by one, please?
Right, please?

Regards

Who is the one to whom you refer?

 

[paarsurrey]

Who is the one to whom you refer?

The starter of the thread "Are we all created equal", please?
Regards

 

[MikeF]

The starter of the thread "Are we all created equal", please?
Regards

Do you know why the authors of the Declaration of Independence were required to use the word "created"? Are you at all familiar with European history up to that point, specifically how heresy was regarded and dealt with? I encourage you to explore and learn all about religious intolerance.

I used the word "created" because I was directly referencing the Declaration of Indepenence to discuss what their concept of equal meant, and that was the language they used. For me, "created", is synonymous with "born". Others will maintain the implication of "created by God", whether people are actually created by gods, or not.

As for me personlly, I was created by my parents, who in turn were created by their parents, and so forth. As for people in general, we are just a naked ape, the most recent itteration of apes that have evolved from precursors, just as all life has. As to the very start of life on earth, we do not have sufficient data to make a definite determination in my mind. For all we know there could have been thousands of pre-cell proto-organisms, with only a very few going on to make the first single celled creatures. We just don't have the data.
As to all that is unknown, to assign anthropomorphic characteristics to it is no different than our primitive ancestors who saw spirits behind the movement of rivers and the wind. The unknown is the unknown. No need to dress it up in a beard and staff.

 

[Miken]

Yes, all men are created equal. Its what happens after the creation part that the constitution gets vague.

I am surprised no one has mentioned that the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence are not the same document. (unless I missed it, in which case I apologize) The Declaration was a callout to the several states (called states and not colonies) to declare independence from Great Britain and to engage in war as necessary to secure that freedom. When Jefferson wrote of Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, he was referring to the oppression by the King, not some vague philosophical principles. Most of the Declaration is about naming the specific offenses.

If Jefferson's imagery were to be taken literally and implemented in the Constitution, it would mean that it would be illegal to defend your self against a homicidal maniac if you had to kill him to stop him, that no one could be put in jail or prison and that everyone could do anything they wanted if they thought it would make them happy. The Constitution is a practical document, not a philosophical one, and certainly and not a call to revolution.

 

[Miken]

Do you know why the authors of the Declaration of Independence were required to use the word "created"? Are you at all familiar with European history up to that point, specifically how heresy was regarded and dealt with? I encourage you to explore and learn all about religious intolerance.

I used the word "created" because I was directly referencing the Declaration of Indepenence to discuss what their concept of equal meant, and that was the language they used. For me, "created", is synonymous with "born". Others will maintain the implication of "created by God", whether people are actually created by gods, or not.

As for me personally, I was created by my parents, who in turn were created by their parents, and so forth. As for people in general, we are just a naked ape, the most recent itteration of apes that have evolved from precursors, just as all life has. As to the very start of life on earth, we do not have sufficient data to make a definite determination in my mind. For all we know there could have been thousands of pre-cell proto-organisms, with only a very few going on to make the first single celled creatures. We just don't have the data.
As to all that is unknown, to assign anthropomorphic characteristics to it is no different than our primitive ancestors who saw spirits behind the movement of rivers and the wind. The unknown is the unknown. No need to dress it up in a beard and staff.

Can you document that specific point about Jefferson and the others being forced to use the term 'forced'? Jefferson was a deist in the same sense of not having a formal religion. He admired the moral principles attributed to Jesus in the Gospels, but severely disparaged what claimed to be Christianity. I see no reason to think he would need to be forced to say 'created' especially since it is a powerful image and definitely part of his literary style.

Here is what the Britanicca has to say on the matter.
The Founding Fathers, Deism, and Christianity

 

[MikeF]

Can you document that specific point about Jefferson and the others being forced to use the term 'forced'? Jefferson was a deist in the same sense of not having a formal religion. He admired the moral principles attributed to Jesus in the Gospels, but severely disparaged what claimed to be Christianity. I see no reason to think he would need to be forced to say 'created' especially since it is a powerful image and definitely part of his literary style.

Here is what the Britanicca has to say on the matter.
The Founding Fathers, Deism, and Christianity

Yes, the statement was over the top. What I am implying is, that in that culture, at that time, there was only so far one could go in speaking out about religion. I'm not saying Jefferson was an atheist, but he definitely had a skeptical bent. People were still being executed for heresey in Europe.
My post was about pushing back against the idea that simply using the word "created" does not mean you have to concede there was a "Creator". Customary language use would have them using this word regardless of how they felt.

 

[Miken]

Jefferson was a deist and

Yes, the statement was over the top. What I am implying is, that in that culture, at that time, there was only so far one could go in speaking out about religion. I'm not saying Jefferson was an atheist, but he definitely had a skeptical bent. People were still being executed for heresey in Europe.
My post was about pushing back against the idea that simply using the word "created" does not mean you have to concede there was a "Creator". Customary language use would have them using this word regardless of how they felt.

Jefferson wrote abut god for his entire life, although his views concerning a benevolent god shifted some over time. But up until the end of his life he personally was against atheism although never insisting one should not consider the question. This was not any posturing to please others. Jefferson spoke his mind all his life, his private writings matching his public writings at each stage of his life. Many of his writings can be found in the footnote links here.

 

[MikeF]

Jefferson was a deist and


Jefferson wrote abut god for his entire life, although his views concerning a benevolent god shifted some over time. But up until the end of his life he personally was against atheism although never insisting one should not consider the question. This was not any posturing to please others. Jefferson spoke his mind all his life, his private writings matching his public writings at each stage of his life. Many of his writings can be found in the footnote links here.

Awsome. And what of my characterization of the environment in which Jefferson lived?

 

[Miken]

Awsome. And what of my characterization of the environment in which Jefferson lived?

While Jefferson and others like him surely had the likes of Hume and Hobbes and Voltaire in their minds, the main American voices were religious and political and social/practical including Jonathan Edwards, Samuel Johnson, John Adams, Benjamin Franklin. Most of the other well known names were too young to have any influence on Jefferson and his contemporaries