Are Messianic Jews Christians?

[RabbiO]

@Teritos -

You seem to have very limited knowledge regarding so-called Messianic Jews. You don’t seem to realize that so-called Messianic Judaism is not a monolithic entity. There are several groups and their beliefs and practices vary greatly.

 

[Teritos]

Let's be clear, when I talk about Messianic Jews, I am not talking about ethnic Jews who are Christians living under the New Covenant. When I talk about Messianic Jews, I am talking about ethnic Jews and Gentiles who still live by the Torah. I think that some have not understood this.

 

[Psalm23]

REGARDING ANTI-CHRISTIAN CHRISTIANITY

I do not think that anti-Christian Christianity is a good thing. It seems to be content with half-truths and misstatements and ignorant claims. For examples :

Teritos said : “Well, even Paul condemns the Messianic Jews.”
This is a very Bizarre claim since Paul was himself, a Messianic Jew.


Teritos said : “They do not really believe in the New Testament… (post #5)
This is a very strange over generalization of a claim since the Messianic Christians that are Jews and friends that I have known for years believe in and study the New Testament just like most other Christians. For example, the Sar Shalom Christian community translated the New Testament into Hebrew so their Hebrew speaking members could study the New Testament in Hebrew.


Teritos said : “I have spoken with Messianic Jews, they themselves testify that one must keep the law…. they themselves admit not to be Christians. (post #7)
Again, this is another bizarre claim and is inconsistent with Christian Jews that I have known for years.


Teritos said : “Just believing that Jesus is the Messiah does not make someone a Christian, even Muslims believe that. (post #10)
This is another bizarre claim since Muslims do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah who atones for the sins of the world in a Christian sense.


Teritos said : “There is only one definition for the term Christian, and a Christian is someone who lives according to the new covenant. (post #13)
This is another strange and self centered viewpoint. Many Christians believe in Jesus but have trouble living according to the New Covenant.


Teritos said : “They do not believe in the New Testament…
This is simply a repeat of the false over-generalization made in post #5.


Teritos said : “But if the Bible itself, in this case Paul, says they are not Christians, should we not accept that? (post #15)
This represents a personal interpretation resulting in a personal viewpoint that seems to be somewhat impervious to the many suggestions from other posters that other interpretations are possible.


To summarize : I do not believe that Anti-Christian Christianity, or intolerance, or the self-satisfaction that inaccurately criticizes other Christians is a characteristic of authentic Christian religion itself, but rather I think that Anti-Christian Christianity seems to be a characteristic of personality.


Clear
δρσισιω

What is anti-Christian Christianity? I haven’t heard of this.

 

[Rival]

s who still live by the Torah

The Torah isn't some forgotten or surpassed thing, despite what you and many other Christians may think. For many many Jews, including some messianic ones, the Torah is eternal. Your seemingly disparaging attitude to anyone who wants to keep the Law God Himself gave from Sinai and said 'do this' is hard to comprehend.

 

[Teritos]

@Teritos -

You seem to have very limited knowledge regarding so-called Messianic Jews. You don’t seem to realize that so-called Messianic Judaism is not a monolithic entity. There are several groups and their beliefs and practices vary greatly.

No, it is not because of my knowledge. I should have been more specific. Obviously, there is a misunderstanding here.

 

[Clear]

REGARDING ANTI-CHRISTIAN CHRISTIANITY

I do not think that anti-Christian Christianity is a good thing. It seems to be content with half-truths and misstatements and ignorant claims. For examples :

Teritos said : “Well, even Paul condemns the Messianic Jews.”
This is a very Bizarre claim since Paul was himself, a Messianic Jew.


Teritos said : “They do not really believe in the New Testament… (post #5)
This is a very strange over generalization of a claim since the Messianic Christians that are Jews and friends that I have known for years believe in and study the New Testament just like most other Christians. For example, the Sar Shalom Christian community translated the New Testament into Hebrew so their Hebrew speaking members could study the New Testament in Hebrew.


Teritos said : “I have spoken with Messianic Jews, they themselves testify that one must keep the law…. they themselves admit not to be Christians. (post #7)
Again, this is another bizarre claim and is inconsistent with Christian Jews that I have known for years.


Teritos said : “Just believing that Jesus is the Messiah does not make someone a Christian, even Muslims believe that. (post #10)
This is another bizarre claim since Muslims do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah who atones for the sins of the world in a Christian sense.


Teritos said : “There is only one definition for the term Christian, and a Christian is someone who lives according to the new covenant. (post #13)
This is another strange and self centered viewpoint. Many Christians believe in Jesus but have trouble living according to the New Covenant.


Teritos said : “They do not believe in the New Testament…
This is simply a repeat of the false over-generalization made in post #5.


Teritos said : “But if the Bible itself, in this case Paul, says they are not Christians, should we not accept that? (post #15)
This represents a personal interpretation resulting in a personal viewpoint that seems to be somewhat impervious to the many suggestions from other posters that other interpretations are possible.


To summarize : I do not believe that Anti-Christian Christianity, or intolerance, or the self-satisfaction that inaccurately criticizes other Christians is a characteristic of authentic Christian religion itself, but rather I think that Anti-Christian Christianity seems to be a characteristic of personality.


Clear
δρσισιω

What is anti-Christian Christianity? I haven’t heard of this.

Hi @Psalm23

It is simply a term meant to describe Christians who unduly and inaccurately Criticize other Christians and other Christian movements who worship Christ differently than they, themselves do.

Clear.

 

[Psalm23]

Let's be clear, when I talk about Messianic Jews, I am not talking about ethnic Jews who are Christians living under the New Covenant. When I talk about Messianic Jews, I am talking about ethnic Jews and Gentiles who still live by the Torah. I think that some have not understood this.

Paul said in Romans 7:12 that the law is good. I understand from Romans 6:14 that believers in Jesus are not under the law but under grace. However if one desires to follow the Torah, I don’t see that as being a bad thing. The Sabbath can help someone guard against burnout. Jesus said the the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.( Mark 2:27) The dietary rules in the Torah can help one be healthy. I have been to one Messianic version of the feast of Tabernacles for an evening . The tent set up was nice and there was food and good fun. The Passover is a time to commemorate the time God delivered the children of Israel out of Egypt and out of their bondage. It is a wonderful remainder of what God did for them.

 

[Teritos]

Paul said in Romans 7:12 that the law is good.

Because the law is good, Jesus freed man from it, because man is not good.

However if one desires to follow the Torah, I don’t see that as being a bad thing. The Sabbath can help someone guard against burnout. Jesus said the the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.( Mark 2:27) The dietary rules in the Torah can help one be healthy. I have been to one Messianic version of the feast of Tabernacles for an evening . The tent set up was nice and there was food and good fun. The Passover is a time to commemorate the time God delivered the children of Israel out of Egypt and out of their bondage. It is a wonderful remainder of what God did for them.

They are welcome to do that, but I as a Christian recognize the spiritual behind it.

As I said, Paul's words are clear enough against the people who still live according to the Torah. Galatians 5:2-4

 

[Psalm23]

Because the law is good, Jesus freed man from it, because man is not good.

They are welcome to do that, but I as a Christian recognize the spiritual behind it.

As I said, Paul's words are clear enough against the people who still live according to the Torah. Galatians 5:2-4

There are Christians who seek to find God’s approval and acceptance through the good things they do. When one is in such a position, there can be a lot of fear and insecurity involved in their faith. I don’t view this as a loss of salvation but rather a need in the individual to come to an understanding of the grace they have in Christ and the love of God.

 

[Deeje]

Paul said in Romans 7:12 that the law is good. I understand from Romans 6:14 that believers in Jesus are not under the law but under grace. However if one desires to follow the Torah, I don’t see that as being a bad thing. The Sabbath can help someone guard against burnout. Jesus said the the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.( Mark 2:27) The dietary rules in the Torah can help one be healthy. I have been to one Messianic version of the feast of Tabernacles for an evening . The tent set up was nice and there was food and good fun. The Passover is a time to commemorate the time God delivered the children of Israel out of Egypt and out of their bondage. It is a wonderful remainder of what God did for them.

I think you have raised some good points.....

It is true that Christians, according to the NT, are not still bound to the old law covenant, but Jesus indicated that there are only two important laws that are binding on all of God’s worshippers....
Matthew 22:35-40 (NET)
“And one of them, an expert in religious law, asked him a question to test him: “Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?” Jesus said to him, “‘ Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. The second is like it: ‘ Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”

Since the whole of the law depended on these two, it was impossible to break any law without violating one or both of these. These two remain.....

It is true that Christians are not under Jewish Law, because Jesus fulfilled it and cancelled the old covenant by instituting a new one. There was no longer a written law, but the principles remained....no Christian could murder, commit adultery, steal....or break any of the principles of the Law.

Having God’s “grace” is not a licence to sin however. The law for Christians was now written on hearts.....to be exercised by our God-given conscience.

We saw the ridiculous extremes that the Jews went to by having to define every nuance of God’s commands. For every law there was a micro-managed approach so that nothing was left to anyone’s conscience....every aspect was decided upon by men who couldn’t just take a balanced approach to God’s Commandments....but were paralysed by the letter of the Law, rather than being guided by the spirit of it.

Jesus said....
“But woe to you, experts in the law and you Pharisees, hypocrites! You keep locking people out of the kingdom of heaven! For you neither enter nor permit those trying to enter to go in.

“Woe to you, experts in the law and you Pharisees, hypocrites! You cross land and sea to make one convert, and when you get one, you make him twice as much a child of hell [gehenna] as yourselves!

“Woe to you, experts in the law and you Pharisees, hypocrites! You give a tenth of mint, dill, and cumin, yet you neglect what is more important in the law—justice, mercy, and faithfulness! You should have done these things without neglecting the others. Blind guides! You strain out a gnat yet swallow a camel! (Matthew 23:13,15,23-24 -NET)
He did not mince words.....

Jesus knows those who belong to him as he indicated in Matthew 7:21-23....
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven—only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many powerful deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you. Go away from me, you lawbreakers!’ (NET)

This makes it clear that calling yourself a “Christian” ( i.e. claiming Jesus as your “Lord”) is not what makes one a genuine Christian. We have to be ‘doing the will of the Father’ in order to be accepted at the judgment....otherwise there will be a stinging rejection as “lawbreakers”.....they seem stunned that Jesus will not recognise them, because they are his disciples by their own definition....so what does that tell us? What laws have these ones broken? is wrong with their definition then?

 

[Wandering Monk]

I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

If you have fulfilled your employment contract, are you still bound by the contract?

Fulfillment = Completed and finished
When was the law fulfilled? At the cross.

Fulfill' the law is a term found repeatedly in ancient Jewish writings. It is not used in the sense of 'fill up', but 'to do' and 'to keep' the law. Here are a few examples:

If the Sanhedrin gives a decision to abolish (uproot, la'akor) a law, by saying for instance, that the Torah does not include the laws of Sabbath or idolatry, the members of the court are free from a sin offering if they obey them; but if the Sanhedrin abolishes (la'akor) only one part of a law but fulfills (lekayem) the other part, they are liable. - Mishnah, Horayot 1:3

If this is how you act, you have never in your whole life fulfilled the requirement of dwelling in a sukkah! - Mishnah, Sukkot 2:7

Whoever fulfills the Torah when poor will in the end fulfill it in wealth. And whoever treats the Torah as nothing when he is wealthy in the end will treat it as nothing in poverty - Mishnah, Avot 4:9

Also in Luke 16:17 Jesus says this: it is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for one tittle of the Law to lose fail.

If you check Thayer's Greek lexicon on the work 'fail' here, it reads '(R. V. fail); to lose authority, no longer have force, of sayings, precepts, etc., Luke 16:17'

So Jesus is saying : 'it is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for one tittle of the Law to lose authority.'

Heaven and earth are still here.

 

[firedragon]

If you are circumcised because you think it is a commandment of God, then you are not a Christian. But a Christian can circumcise himself for health reasons if he wants to. Messianic Jews circumcise themselves because they claim it is a duty, they say it is still God's commandment.

I understand.

 

[F1fan]

They're Christians. They're like most other Christians in that they want to be different than all other Christians. With some 41,000 sects under the umbrella of Christianity this a religious buffet where you can go pick whatever looks good to you as dogma, and eat all you want. It's the religion of conflict and confusion.

 

[Katzpur]

Any one that has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit today is a Christian.

Yeah, right. Except Mormons of course.

 

[John1.12]

Yeah, right. Except Mormons of course.

Anyone , means anyone can recieve the Holy Spirit if they believe the Gospel, according to the Scriptures.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Anyone , means anyone can recieve the Holy Spirit if they believe the Gospel, according to the Scriptures.

Who knew that Mr. Notrue Scotsman was Christian?

As for the question posed in the thread's title, the path to an answer is fairly straight forward:

let the Christian decide what they are and the Jew decide what they are not.​

 

[Teritos]

Fulfill' the law is a term found repeatedly in ancient Jewish writings. It is not used in the sense of 'fill up', but 'to do' and 'to keep' the law.

Exactly, that's what I say all the time. Jesus was the only person who fulfilled the law by keeping it completely.

So Jesus is saying : 'it is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for one tittle of the Law to lose authority.'

Heaven and earth are still here.

Consider the entire context.
For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished! Matthew 5:18
It was accomplished on the cross when Jesus said "It is finished". The law is finished. As the apostles say, "We have died to the law"; a Christian is free and so no longer bound by the law.

 

[Teritos]

As for the question posed in the thread's title, the path to an answer is fairly straight forward:

let the Christian decide what they are and the Jew decide what they are not.

You seem to misunderstand this theard as well. I am not talking about Christian Jews here. There are Christian Jews, no doubt about it. But I am talking about Messianic Jews, Messianic Jews and Christian Jews are two different things, in fact Messianic Jews themselves say they are not Christians. Messianic Jews consist not only of Jews but also of Gentiles who accept Jesus as Messiah but still live by the Torah.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

You seem to misunderstand this theard as well.

It must be frustrating to find oneself so often misunderstood while knowing with such certainty the you are not at all responsible for the matter.

 

[BilliardsBall]

In my opinion, according to the Bible, they are not Christians. They still live in the old covenant, they circumcise themselves, they celebrate the Sabbath and they also keep other laws of Moses. They still live like a servant of God although the new covenant has made Christians children of God. They try to keep the law even though it is not possible. Many Messianic Jews do not even believe that Jesus is God. The funny thing is, some Messianic Jews themselves admit they are not Christians.

I'm a Messianic Jew, and I'm aware I cannot keep the Law.

But realize that Gentile Christians will be evangelical, then fellowship at a legalistic Messianic congregation, binding themselves to the Law--they are still Christians if you understand how salvation and assurance work per the Bible.