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Featured Are Killers going to Hell?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Grumpuss, Jul 12, 2017.

  1. Grumpuss

    Grumpuss Active Member

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    An unfortunate part of organized society is that a few of its members will have their lives ended unnaturally by others. Not every killing is the same as another, and secular society provides for circumstances where it is more acceptable to kill another, or at least, won't punish as severely. Those might include war, to defend oneself from an attacker or to avenge an injustice. As there are several thousand killings occurring each day, it is entirely possible, even likely that many of the people perpetrating them maintain a personal belief in God. They may even be devout members of an established religion, which may or may not provide internal guidance on how to treat someone who takes a life.

    How one conducts himself/herself in life would therefore follow some kind of path to salvation, whether it be an Abrahamic God, Hindu pantheon, Buddhist spirit, etc. It would follow for those believers who are not living gods, that the rules were designed by others and we can not rewrite them to suit our own subject experience of judgment of ourselves. Being peaceful and kind and never taking a life, as we are told the god(s) of our faith want can and will clash against what many consider to be being a good acolyte. While we hope and expect we have kind and merciless deities to at least partially absolve us when mental derangement is a mitigating factor, what is the effect upon our immortal souls and/or spiritual afterlife when we consciously or recklessly kill?

    [​IMG]
    Maybe it's debatable if David Haines "had it coming", but how about Jihadi John?

    Please know that what one religion may consider foul and sin-worthy can be quite different than what another may consider tolerable. I am not looking for any rants explaining why one religion's worldview is superior to all others, or how defensible you consider it to kill someone, based on the killed's thoughts, actions or relative worthiness. It's always complicated. Myself, I believe this is a question left up to God to judge who shall be rewarded with bliss and who is damned. To pass judgment on others for what happens in the afterlife, is to speak for God, and is a sin. But we can of course keep asking questions and try to live well, free from chaos.

    Is it a sin to kill another in all situations, and rob another's family of that person's life, when it involves descending into the role of a killer? And to what extent are the machinations of demons (if you believe in their influence) to be blamed or mitigated against?
     
  2. jonathan180iq

    jonathan180iq Well-Known Member

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    Is killing someone wrong when God is the one who tells you to do it?
     
  3. Grumpuss

    Grumpuss Active Member

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    Good question. I suppose that follows a new topic of "does God send good people to Hell" ?

    You'd think if a deity ordered you to do it, your conduct isn't viewed as harshly for your salvation.
     
  4. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Telescopic Toes
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    Yes, of course. Either its wrong or it isn't.
     
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  5. sun rise

    sun rise "Let there be peace and love among all"
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    To me it comes down to motive. If I consciously kill someone who is trying to rape and murder my wife, it's one thing. If I murder someone because they annoyed me, it's quite something different.

    After death when the soul reviews the life just lived, it will suffer intense pain that some call hell if it committed evil acts during life. The feeling will be as if the pain never ends as pain on earth often seems endless. If the soul killed to save another, the resulting review will be a lot more pleasant.

    Once the review is complete, the soul takes another body to sooner or later, in some life or another, balance the act. The soul might save the life of someone it murdered or might murder the one that murdered it for example.

    The situations can be much more complex but that's the basics of my beliefs on this topic.
     
  6. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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  7. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Depends on why the person killed any one. A soldier, in defense of his country may kill. That will be merit. Killed while robbing someone, sin. Good people are never sent to hell, even though they may not be following Hinduism.
     
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  8. David1967

    David1967 Well-Known Member
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    God doesn't need man to kill anyone. Since He is God, if He wanted someone dead He is more than able to do the deed Himself. Funny how people who kill on "Gods" orders, tend to kill people they don't like, be it ideologically or personally.
     
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  9. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    It's the way things are. Like fatal storms or floods. Killing is a force of nature that dosent discriminate between good and bad.
     
  10. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Or, if one simply thinks god tells him to? How's a guy supposed to tell the difference? v o i c e s i n t h e h e a d.

    OR, how about when one's country tells him to? Should soldiers go to hell for killing their enemy in war?


    God too tired to do it himself? . . . . . . .

    1 Samuel 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***. [Nice touch: killing infants.]

    NUMBERS 21:3 The Lord gave the Canaanites over to Israel, who "completely destroyed them and their towns."

    NUMBERS 31:17-18 God commanded Moses to kill all of the male Midianite children and "kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." The virgins were presumably raped. [What's this with killing kids, and this hang-up with people having had sex?]

    .
     
    #10 Skwim, Jul 12, 2017
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  11. David1967

    David1967 Well-Known Member
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    It is a bit of a conundrum isn't it. Not much of an Old Testament guy myself. In fact much of it ,especially 'Judges' is horrifying.
     
  12. Kilgore Trout

    Kilgore Trout Misanthropic Humanist

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    You can commit any sin and still go to heaven as long as you ask god for forgiveness and push your religious down other people's throat in a smarmy and self-righteous manner.
     
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  13. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    Killing may be moral, particularly when it ends otherwise pointless and unavoidable suffering. Generally it isn't.

    It makes no actual difference whether there is any deity involved; a person is supposed to make his or her own moral judgements.

    It does not make any difference whether there is some expectation of a hell, either. Morality can't be based on fear of punishment.
     
  14. David1967

    David1967 Well-Known Member
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    Exactly. If a voice in your head says something along the lines of , "See that person that believes differently than you, Kill him." Pretty good indication its not God. Word for that voice is insanity.
     
  15. Grumpuss

    Grumpuss Active Member

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    This is basically where I stand.

    People who claim it's right to kill in the name of God typically ignore the principles of their faith and that it's wrong to kill.

    Taking Jesus's teaching, you're not supposed to answer violence with more violence. Hindus and Buddhists too, believe in nonviolence, even to the point of accepting death.

    The number of occasions where someone is forced to kill, lest they be killed themselves is vanishingly small. Generally, killers who give themselves a pass morally, say that their killing is justified because the state said so.
     
  16. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Not at all. It's like doing yard work. Sometimes you like to do it and sometimes you'd rather pass along the job to someone else. Sometimes god likes to kill people and sometimes he prefers to pass along the job to someone else.

    But you don't know for sure. Perhaps this is what god likes to do from time to time: tell people to kill others. After all, as I pointed out, he's certainly done it in the past without any trouble.

    .

    .
     
    #16 Skwim, Jul 12, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2017
  17. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    I think that this where the problem is. Biblical morality is very flexible and subjective, because the Bible teaches so many different things. People can decide what they think is right and then find a Verse that supports their opinion and dismiss the rest.

    I am a pretty hard core prolifer. I oppose people choosing death for other people, when there is any feasible option to try to avoid it. From preemptive war to capital punishment to elective abortion I oppose all of that.

    I had a rather fruitless discussion with a conservative Christian in another RF thread, because we disagreed about that. He argued that murder is a "premeditated killing" and therefore wrong according to the Bible. I pointed out that capital punishment is extremely premeditated killing. He argued that it was justifiable, and quoted a verse from Genesis.

    Similarly, I remember 2002 in the lead up to the USA invasion of Iraq. Some Christians, including the Pope, described it as a crime against humanity based on their understanding of Scripture. Others found it justifiable based on their own understanding of Scripture.

    The problem is that Scripture is vague. People commonly retrofit their modern morality and opinions into it, even when the issue didn't exist at the time it was written.
    Tom
     
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  18. Grumpuss

    Grumpuss Active Member

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    Plenty of religions will say that both are examples of sin, worthy of Hell (without repentance). I'm wondering what the people committing the murders are telling themselves at the time, if they also consider themselves good Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, etc.
     
  19. Chickenlittle

    Chickenlittle New Member

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  20. Chickenlittle

    Chickenlittle New Member

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    Yes, it is called "wordsmithing". There are indeed verses that are vague, but there are other verses that are so clear that a monkey cannot get it wrong, yet there is always someone who twist verses to say what they demand that it says. That is why we are commanded to study our Bible diligently.
     
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