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Featured Are Killers going to Hell?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Grumpuss, Jul 12, 2017.

  1. columbus

    columbus yawn <ignore> yawn

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    What verses would those be?
    What I find is that the clearer the verse, the more likely you are to find a contradictory verse, also clear as a bell.

    The conversation I was having at the time referring to abortion. I pointed out that the Bible authors probably wouldn't see it as a moral issue. They certainly did not mention it. The conservative Christian seemed to take offense at that.
    Tom
     
  2. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    Since there's absolutely no evidence to support the notion that hell exists, it would be silly to suggest that anyone goes there.
     
  3. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

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  4. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

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    The circumstances dictate the morality or immorality of the action. I have no evidence of any gods existing, therefor the subject of sin is irrelevant to me, only morality.
    however, if you are referencing the Christian god, then that god is in my view a very poor example of morality, as I do not view rape, incest, genocide, or slavery as moral under any conditions.
     
  5. Daisies4me

    Daisies4me Active Member

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    (quote)

    Yes. All killers and other who die are all going to 'hell', sheol, hades, the grave.

    If Jesus 'went to hell', why would you think any other human would escape the common grave of all of mankind when they are no longer alive?

    Ezekiel 18:4. Psalms 146:3-4. Acts 2:31

    It is shown in the Bible as a symbolic place of condition wherein all activity and consciencousness cease. Eccl. 9:10.
     
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  6. Corvus

    Corvus Feathered eyeball connoisseur

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    No because you would be considered legally insane and incapable of being convicted of murder on grounds of diminished responsibility. If you tell a court God literally told you to kill someone.
     
  7. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

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    Would you be coming from the Christadelphian perspective?
     
  8. Grumpuss

    Grumpuss Active Member

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    "If one person hears voices, he's schizophrenic. But when a group of people hear voices they call it religion."

    Dial up some Armenian genocide?
     
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  9. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    I don't understand the non-sequitur. Genocide is a heinous crime against humanity and the evil committed by the murderers will have utterly serious consequences after death. The disease of schizophrenia has nothing to do with mass murder.
     
  10. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Murder for a selfish motive - certainly sin, even harming a single strand of hair of another person is that. However, killing or dying in one's line of duty (dharma, for example, in attempt to to save someone) is clearly a merit in Hinduism. However, the killing should be without hate or anger (very necessary) and just a matter of duty (you fought because it was your duty at that time and not to satisfy any of your emotions, that will taint your action and make it a sin). BhagawadGita is very clear about this.

    "Yoga-sthaḥ kuru karmāṇi, sańgaḿ tyaktvā Dhanañjaya;
    siddhy-asiddhyoḥ samo bhūtvā, samatvaḿ yoga ucyate.
    " BhagawadGita 2.48

    Perform your duty equipoised, O Arjuna, abandoning all attachment. Whether you win or loose, consider it as immaterial, such equanimity is called yoga.
     
    #30 Aupmanyav, Jul 12, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2017
  11. Deidre

    Deidre Follow thy heart

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    If the killer doesn't believe in hell, I doubt it will matter to him/her. If we care if a killer goes to hell or not, what does that say about the concept to begin with? Because we think we are better than the killer...so if the killer doesn't go to hell, does this mean we shouldn't, because we aren't as bad as killers? This is why I disbelieve in hell, and believe it to be a man made idea. Even when I was a strong Christian, I still had big doubts about the existence of hell. The whole idea of punishment and reward largely comes from how humans deal with one another, through societal rules, etc. It's not ironic that we take the same rules that are good enough for us, and apply them to an almighty deity.
     
  12. jonathan180iq

    jonathan180iq Well-Known Member

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    That's a pretty thin line though, isn't it?

    If there's a voice in someone's head that tells them to do something that we might consider to be "good", is that equally as insane? Does the level of insanity vary depending on what the voice suggests?
     
  13. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    Please help me out here. How are these two sentiments in your OP considered compatible?

    In asking the question in the second quote, aren't you asking people to "pass judgment" after a fashion? In asking that question, aren't you looking for exactly what you say you are not looking for in the first statement? That is "how defensible you consider it to kill someone based on the killed's thoughts, actions or relative worthiness?" That's exactly what you're asking people to weigh in on by asking that question in the second quote I included above!

    In other words, by asking that last question and wanting people's opinions/judgment on the various matters surrounding different types of killing, aren't you explicitly asking them to sin by your own statement of belief (see 2nd bolded,underlined,italicized sentence above)? In fact... by your estimation, even answering the question posed in the thread title IS SINNING according to you! I mean come on... at least TRY for consistency.
     
    #33 A Vestigial Mote, Jul 13, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2017
  14. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    I suppose it would be up to God (if there really is such a thing) to decide whether it's a sin and whether someone should go to Hell for killing someone. I might also wonder if God would give someone a lighter punishment if it's second degree murder or manslaughter. And what about attempted murder? I suppose if God was hung up on technicalities, then even those who have passing thoughts of wanting someone dead could lead them to a fiery afterlife.

    If God has a "divine plan" for us all, then it has to be assumed that He set everything up this way on purpose. We're also told that if we believe in God and live a good life, death is not an end, but a beginning of an idyllic eternity in Heaven. If this is really true, one might well wonder why killing people is even considered wrong from a religious point of view. Because, according to the religion, nobody actually "dies" - they're just going to the afterlife that God has ordained for them.
     
  15. Grumpuss

    Grumpuss Active Member

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    Sorry- are you actually claiming that to kill is not a sin? Religious folk aren't perfect, but at least they are willing to admit that it's poor conduct.

    And indeed, I am looking for people's opinion on self-judgment of others who are both devout believers in a higher being, and rationalize killing. Specifically, when is it "good" to kill, even if religion labels it sin, bad, wrong, irredeemable, etc.?

    True... except the people who believe in such things have been told that killing is a sin. Whether it's something that is endangering salvation is the more unclear question.

    One of the biggest problems atheists and those of lapsed faith have with religion is not understanding what God's plan for us is. It's a fair point- how do you know how straight a path you must walk, if no one explains to you how not to stray and what the goal is?
     
  16. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    Wow. I am at somewhat of a loss here. To have been misunderstood so completely. Did you even read what I wrote at all? Let's try a brief, direct statement/accusation and see how your mind deals with it:

    BY YOUR OWN WORDS, YOU, @Grumpuss ARE ASKING PEOPLE TO "SIN" BY ASKING THEM TO ANSWER THE QUESTION YOU POSED IN THE THREAD TITLE: "ARE KILLERS GOING TO HELL?"

    And here are your words:

    When you ask the question "Are killers going to hell?" The only two answers are "Yes" and "No". Answering with either of those is "[passing] judgment on others for what happens in the afterlife". Can you tell me how it isn't? 'Cause if it is, you have stated that this is tantamount to "[speaking] for God" and that this "is a sin".

    I want to be clear, I AM DISCUSSING YOUR WORDS, not mine. I didn't say a single thing about my position on killing being a "sin". Not one single thing. Go ahead and re-read my original post if you like. You won't find anything in support of your reply above. You either didn't read, or couldn't comprehend, or didn't want to bother comprehending. In any of those cases... your misunderstanding isn't my fault.
     
    #36 A Vestigial Mote, Jul 13, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2017
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  17. Grumpuss

    Grumpuss Active Member

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    Incorrect. I stated what my philosophy is. I believe that only God can judge our deeds and thoughts while committing them. To presume otherwise, for me, is to insist on knowing God's will. For others, maybe they are more comfortable with it.

    You attempts to try to lock me in some kind of logical fallacy are pathetic. Please take it to some other thread, or maybe some racist thread on Reddit.
     
  18. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    Hahaha... "RACIST?" Are you being serious? What in the world? What "race" are you? Do I even care? Let's try this again...

    REGARDLESS OTHERS' PERSONAL PHILOSOPHIES, BY ASKING PEOPLE TO MAKE JUDGMENT ABOUT WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT HAPPEN TO ANYONE IN THE AFTERLIFE, YOU ARE ASKING PEOPLE TO "SIN" ACCORDING TO STATEMENTS YOU HAVE MADE FROM YOUR PERSONAL PHILOSOPHY.

    Does your philosophy include spreading "sin" throughout the people of the world by asking questions that put them in the position to "sin"? Regardless what their philosophies are, or how much "more comfortable" you feel they might be in discussing the fate of killers in the afterlife - YOU ARE ASKING THEM TO "SIN" ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN BELIEFS AND ARE THEREFORE ASKING FOR MORE "SIN" TO BE PRESENT IN THE WORLD.

    It really is as simple as this. I don't need to "lock" you into anything. You did so yourself quite handily.
     
  19. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    Somehow I feel you may be snickering through your sneering.

    According to Wikipedia a Kill is a woodland. So your name probably means the woodland of Gore and not that you are a gory killer.
     
  20. Kilgore Trout

    Kilgore Trout Misanthropic Humanist

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    Actually, my name is a Kurt Vonnegut reference.

    He was a writer.
     
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