Are Christians actually worshiping the Father of Jesus?

[InvestigateTruth]

Ok Investigate Truth, I do not disagree with what you have said. Does that mean that the Baha'i are also waiting for the return of Lord Jesus? And does that mean that they do not expect His return for one thousand years?

Also about keeping information current, those that are of the present flock of sheep that Lord Jesus is the Shepherd of have a Holy Spirit (no physical body involved) that teaches and guides them and keeps them current on the instant. Not updated every one thousand years. The reason that I do not pass judgement on those of other faiths is because I feel that a path toward God should be available to all humankind that wishes to be on a path toward God no matter whether they are of the flock of Lord Jesus or not. And that all faiths that teach "love", as far as I am concerened, are a gift to humankind from the profoundly powerful force that most call God. And these faiths a gift of His love for Humankind.

A lot of Christians both in the past and in the present tell others that these others are going to go to Hell if these others do not believe as these Christians do. This is absolutely not true . The message of Lord Jesus is "love and forgiveness" and His message does not give anyone the licence to judge or condem anyone else in a Divine judgement sense. No, Nada, La, Neit!

Well, all major religions of the world have a promised one. Buddhists are waiting for the 5th Buddha. Christians are waiting for Christ. Hindus are waiting for the kalki avatar, and Zoroastrians also are waiting for a Promised One. Baha'u'llah claimed that all these religions are divine in origin and all of them symbolically prophesied of One Messianic Figure, and that He is the fulfillment of all of those Prophecies. Therefore Baha'is are not waiting for any of those promised ones any longer. They believe when Jesus said He comes again, by that He meant Baha'u'llah exactly. Baha'is are from Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Zoroastrians, Buddhist, Hindus background. However, Baha'u'llah said that Religion of God periodically needs to be renewed every about a 1000 years, and the next time would be at least 1000 years from His own Revelation. We believe that Holy Spirit is like the light of God, so God must Manifest Himself in every Age, just as the Sun that appears every Morning, so that humanity receives the Holy Spirit again and again. So, for example, through the revelation of Moses, Holy Spirit appeared, and many of the Jewish saints received holy Spirit as it is recorded in Hebrew Scriptures. However, as time passed that light became faded, and therefore Jesus who was like the Manifestation of the Sun, appeared and once again through His guidance and blessings caused the Holy Spirit appear again. Baha'is believe that God always continues this process, just as the cycle of day and night follows.

 

[metis]

Maybe it's a mistake to look just outside of one's self? It seems to me that if there truly is a God that It must be already in us waiting to be tapped into.

I say this because after all my years of studying religious concepts and groups, it has made less and less sense that only one religion supposedly is the right one at the expense of the others. It seems to me that if God truly wanted us to believe and follow His instructions that He would fully revealed Himself to make it absolutely clear to all that He's here with each generation. Since he hasn't, this seemingly tells me He must be inside of us, thus our best approach may be to tap into Him there.

 

[mystic64]

Maybe it's a mistake to look just outside of one's self? It seems to me that if there truly is a God that It must be already in us waiting to be tapped into.

I say this because after all my years of studying religious concepts and groups, it has made less and less sense that only one religion supposedly is the right one at the expense of the others. It seems to me that if God truly wanted us to believe and follow His instructions that He would fully revealed Himself to make it absolutely clear to all that He's here with each generation. Since he hasn't, this seemingly tells me He must be inside of us, thus our best approach may be to tap into Him there.

Metis, after sixty years of exploring the mystic experience, I have to absoultely agree with you . And it took me years to come to the same conclusion that you have come to. Most everybody teaches that God is outside of you and that God is just like we are, at least more or less. But, God also has a presence inside of us and God is not like us in any way, shape, or form. Questions like, "Who am I?" and "Why am I here?" are mind game questions. The true question is , "How do I tap into It/Him?" and the answer to that question all starts with understanding that God has a presence within us. From there the next thing that needs to be understood is that God is not like us in any way, shape, or form. And that understanding is the "kicker". Because if you say or think that God has to be this or that, your are then creating God in the image that you think He should be and not experiencing Him as He is. And you can only tap into Him by experiencing His presence within you as He is, "I am that I am.", with no limitations. The problem is that one's personality programming will not allow something to exist that does not have any qualities .

 

[metis]

Metis, after sixty years of exploring the mystic experience, I have to absoultely agree with you . And it took me years to come to the same conclusion that you have come to. Most everybody teaches that God is outside of you and that God is just like we are, at least more or less. But, God also has a presence inside of us and God is not like us in any way, shape, or form. Questions like, "Who am I?" and "Why am I here?" are mind game questions. The true question is , "How do I tap into It/Him?" and the answer to that question all starts with understanding that God has a presence within us. From there the next thing that needs to be understood is that God is not like us in any way, shape, or form. And that understanding is the "kicker". Because if you say or think that God has to be this or that, your are then creating God in the image that you think He should be and not experiencing Him as He is. And you can only tap into Him by experiencing His presence within you as He is, "I am that I am.", with no limitations. The problem is that one's personality programming will not allow something to exist that does not have any qualities .

Well said. IMO, I have to agree with Gandhi in that God seemingly must be Truth and Love, words Gandhi sometimes used as replacement names for God. If he's correct, then we can define "Truth" as being "What Is" and "Love" as being the same basic "Compassion" that we have for our own children that seemingly is ingrained in us.

But in order to accept the possibilities of both Truth and Love, we also have to accept the reality of things, which can sometimes be painful. We probably all have the idea of how we feel the world should run, but the reality is often different, so we should accept it as is, and then we can work on hopefully improving things.

Anyhow, it's great that we agree.

shalom

 

[mystic64]

Well, all major religions of the world have a promised one. Buddhists are waiting for the 5th Buddha. Christians are waiting for Christ. Hindus are waiting for the kalki avatar, and Zoroastrians also are waiting for a Promised One. Baha'u'llah claimed that all these religions are divine in origin and all of them symbolically prophesied of One Messianic Figure, and that He is the fulfillment of all of those Prophecies. Therefore Baha'is are not waiting for any of those promised ones any longer. They believe when Jesus said He comes again, by that He meant Baha'u'llah exactly. Baha'is are from Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Zoroastrians, Buddhist, Hindus background. However, Baha'u'llah said that Religion of God periodically needs to be renewed every about a 1000 years, and the next time would be at least 1000 years from His own Revelation. We believe that Holy Spirit is like the light of God, so God must Manifest Himself in every Age, just as the Sun that appears every Morning, so that humanity receives the Holy Spirit again and again. So, for example, through the revelation of Moses, Holy Spirit appeared, and many of the Jewish saints received holy Spirit as it is recorded in Hebrew Scriptures. However, as time passed that light became faded, and therefore Jesus who was like the Manifestation of the Sun, appeared and once again through His guidance and blessings caused the Holy Spirit appear again. Baha'is believe that God always continues this process, just as the cycle of day and night follows.

Humm? I have learned quite a bit about the Baha'i faith in this topic and in other topics Investigate Truth thanks to your patience with me, which I appreciate. So your prophet's name is Baha'u'llah and your faith maintains that he will be the one that returns? So ok, we now have that all or most of the major faiths are waiting for the return of or the appearence of somebody that will be extremely holy and a gift to the world of humankind.

So with that said, the Christian faith, the faith that I am most familar with, leaves room for the possibility of individuals of that faith to also become more or less mirrors of God's divine presence because of their closeness to their Lord and Savior Christ Jesus. Does the Baha'i faith also leave room for this possibility to occur amongst the faithful of the Baha'i faith, relative to Baha'u'llah. And the Lord and Savior of the Christian faith also represents those of the Christian faith, at least the Protestant , before the Father in Heaven as well as make a place for them in the house of His Father. Does Baha'u'llah also do this for those of the Baha'i faith?

 

[mystic64]

Well said. IMO, I have to agree with Gandhi in that God seemingly must be Truth and Love, words Gandhi sometimes used as replacement names for God. If he's correct, then we can define "Truth" as being "What Is" and "Love" as being the same basic "Compassion" that we have for our own children that seemingly is ingrained in us.

But in order to accept the possibilities of both Truth and Love, we also have to accept the reality of things, which can sometimes be painful. We probably all have the idea of how we feel the world should run, but the reality is often different, so we should accept it as is, and then we can work on hopefully improving things.

Anyhow, it's great that we agree.

shalom

Metis, you and I agree on a lot of stuff . Metis you bring up a tricky point here , "God has to be "truth" and "love."" So if God has to be approached without any given qualities, then how can we rationalize God not have the qualities of "truth and love"? We can't . So let us approach things from this angle, when one "taps in" to the presence of God that exists within them God becomes them. And one experiences one looking at themselves. So the first thought that comes into one's mind is that, "I am God!" And from there your "tapped into God" experience becomes what kind of person that it is that you really are. Which is why most people would rather keep God at a distance someplace outside of them and not "tap into His presence" inside of them. The only way that I can "tap into" the presence of God that is inside of me is to take the hand of Jesus before I do it. Otherwise God becomes a terrifying monster, which says a lot about me as a person and my personality programing . God is "truth and love", the problem, if you wish to "tap into" Him, is, "Are you?" Because if you are not, then you had better take somebody with you that is . Metis I do not even try to tap into God anymore. Jesus said, "I am in the Father and the Father is in Me and I am in you." so I tap into the presence of Jesus that is within me and let Him deal with the presence of the Father that is within Him and me because I can't. There is no way that I can deal with a God that appears to be like me, I am a monster! Jesus said that one can only approach the Father through Him, so at least relative to my experience, I understand what He ment. And it should be said that people that are filled with "truth and love" have a totally different experience when they "tap into" the presence of God that is within them.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Humm? I have learned quite a bit about the Baha'i faith in this topic and in other topics Investigate Truth thanks to your patience with me, which I appreciate. So your prophet's name is Baha'u'llah and your faith maintains that he will be the one that returns? So ok, we now have that all or most of the major faiths are waiting for the return of or the appearence of somebody that will be extremely holy and a gift to the world of humankind.

Actually in Baha'i Scriptures, Baha'u'llah does not say I return. However, in principle it won't be wrong to say, the next manifestation of God is the return of Baha'u'llah. Since there is only one God, He Manifests Himself every time, in a new Temple. Once that Temple was Jesus, another time Baha'u'llah. But it was the same God who Manifested Himself in Them, and will always the same God that manifests Himself again and again.

So with that said, the Christian faith, the faith that I am most familar with, leaves room for the possibility of individuals of that faith to also become more or less mirrors of God's divine presence because of their closeness to their Lord and Savior Christ Jesus. Does the Baha'i faith also leave room for this possibility to occur amongst the faithful of the Baha'i faith, relative to Baha'u'llah.

Yes, I quote Baha'u'llah:

"O SON OF SPIRIT! I created thee rich, why dost thou bring thyself down to poverty? Noble I made thee, wherewith dost thou abase thyself? Out of the essence of knowledge I gave thee being, why seekest thou enlightenment from anyone beside Me? Out of the clay of love I molded thee, how dost thou busy thyself with another? Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting." Baha'u'llah

And the Lord and Savior of the Christian faith also represents those of the Christian faith, at least the Protestant , before the Father in Heaven as well as make a place for them in the house of His Father. Does Baha'u'llah also do this for those of the Baha'i faith?

Yes, I quote Baha'u'llah:


"Say: Blessed the slumberer who is awakened by My Breeze. Blessed the lifeless one who is quickened through My reviving breaths. Blessed the eye that is solaced by gazing at My beauty. Blessed the wayfarer who directeth his steps towards the Tabernacle of My glory and majesty. Blessed the distressed one who seeketh refuge beneath the shadow of My canopy. Blessed the sore athirst who hasteneth to the soft-flowing waters of My loving-kindness. Blessed the insatiate soul who casteth away his selfish desires for love of Me and taketh his place at the banquet table which I have sent down from the heaven of divine bounty for My chosen ones. Blessed the abased one who layeth fast hold on the cord of My glory; and the needy one who entereth beneath the shadow of the Tabernacle of My wealth. Blessed the ignorant one who seeketh the fountain of My knowledge; and the heedless one who cleaveth to the cord of My remembrance. Blessed the soul that hath been raised to life through My quickening breath and hath gained admittance into My heavenly Kingdom. Blessed the man whom the sweet savours of reunion with Me have stirred and caused to draw nigh unto the Dayspring of My Revelation. Blessed the ear that hath heard and the tongue that hath borne witness and the eye that hath seen and recognized the Lord Himself, in His great glory and majesty, invested with grandeur and dominion. Blessed are they that have attained His presence. Blessed the man who hath sought enlightenment from the Day-Star of My Word. Blessed he who hath attired his head with the diadem of My love. Blessed is he who hath heard of My grief and hath arisen to aid Me among My people. Blessed is he who hath laid down his life in My path and hath borne manifold hardships for the sake of My Name. Blessed the man who, assured of My Word, hath arisen from among the dead to celebrate My praise. Blessed is he that hath been enraptured by My wondrous melodies and hath rent the veils asunder through the potency of My might. Blessed is he who hath remained faithful to My Covenant, and whom the things of the world have not kept back from attaining My Court of holiness. Blessed is the man who hath detached himself from all else but Me, hath soared in the atmosphere of My love, hath gained admittance into My Kingdom, gazed upon My realms of glory, quaffed the living waters of My bounty, hath drunk his fill from the heavenly river of My loving providence, acquainted himself with My Cause, apprehended that which I concealed within the treasury of My Words, and hath shone forth from the horizon of divine knowledge engaged in My praise and glorification. Verily, he is of Me. Upon him rest My mercy, My loving-kindness, My bounty and My glory."
Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 9-17

 

[metis]

Metis, you and I agree on a lot of stuff . Metis you bring up a tricky point here , "God has to be "truth" and "love."" So if God has to be approached without any given qualities, then how can we rationalize God not have the qualities of "truth and love"? We can't . So let us approach things from this angle, when one "taps in" to the presence of God that exists within them God becomes them. And one experiences one looking at themselves. So the first thought that comes into one's mind is that, "I am God!" And from there your "tapped into God" experience becomes what kind of person that it is that you really are. Which is why most people would rather keep God at a distance someplace outside of them and not "tap into His presence" inside of them. The only way that I can "tap into" the presence of God that is inside of me is to take the hand of Jesus before I do it. Otherwise God becomes a terrifying monster, which says a lot about me as a person and my personality programing . God is "truth and love", the problem, if you wish to "tap into" Him, is, "Are you?" Because if you are not, then you had better take somebody with you that is . Metis I do not even try to tap into God anymore. Jesus said, "I am in the Father and the Father is in Me and I am in you." so I tap into the presence of Jesus that is within me and let Him deal with the presence of the Father that is within Him and me because I can't. There is no way that I can deal with a God that appears to be like me, I am a monster! Jesus said that one can only approach the Father through Him, so at least relative to my experience, I understand what He ment. And it should be said that people that are filled with "truth and love" have a totally different experience when they "tap into" the presence of God that is within them.

As you might suspect, I don't see Jesus in the same way you do, but I do tend to think that Jesus the man was going in our direction with his message of compassion and justice, which is also the same message the prophets enunciated, as well as many in other faiths as well.

To me, the message has to be universal and personal to the point whereas everyone must have it within them, so it's mainly a matter of meditating on the issues of Truth and Love and letting it take us where ever. No religion has a monopoly on this, and I actually believe that sometimes religion may actually get in the way of enlightenment.

So, if Jesus works for you, I have no problem accepting that as your path. It's not that all paths are as good as each other, but that since there's so much room for so many questions, I have to go with the Hindu approach of there probably being "many paths to God"-- except I'll also add "Gods" to the formula.

 

[mystic64]

As you might suspect, I don't see Jesus in the same way you do, but I do tend to think that Jesus the man was going in our direction with his message of compassion and justice, which is also the same message the prophets enunciated, as well as many in other faiths as well.

To me, the message has to be universal and personal to the point whereas everyone must have it within them, so it's mainly a matter of meditating on the issues of Truth and Love and letting it take us where ever. No religion has a monopoly on this, and I actually believe that sometimes religion may actually get in the way of enlightenment.

So, if Jesus works for you, I have no problem accepting that as your path. It's not that all paths are as good as each other, but that since there's so much room for so many questions, I have to go with the Hindu approach of there probably being "many paths to God"-- except I'll also add "Gods" to the formula.

Metis to be honest with you, I am taking the Hindu approach. That is what makes me a Christian yogi mystic and probably the only person on this planet that is doing what I am doing . And that is also why I am pretty open minded when it comes to all faiths and paths that are an attempt to establish a relationship with the Loving Divine and Its many forms. To be a yogi (one who is seeking a yoked to God experience) one needs to have a master/guru to teach and guide them. I chose Jesus as my master when I was twenty-three, and was starting this yogi path, because I had known Him since I was five years old and Yogananda and other yogis said that Jesus knew about this yogi stuff. In truth any person that has successfully established a functional connection with the Loving Divine can be chosen as a master to guide one. And I have no problem with that. Metis, you and I really do not disagree with each other, it is just that you are confunsing me with other Chrtistians . And because of my approach to things I really can not represent Christianity because Christianity does not for the most part consider me Christian. And I am no different than all yogis, we all love our master/guru and of course think of them as the best . It is a human whatever it is called. So anyway when I am talking about Jesus I am talking about my experience with "my" guru and not about Christianity as a faith.

When you mentioned the possibility of "tapping into" the presence of God that exists within us you brought up something that I have some experience with and yes it can be done . There is a bit of a trick to it though and one should find someone that has done it to guide them durring the process that leads to achieving it. And even though I am an advanced student of the process I am still a student and am not qualified to be a master who can guide others through the process.

 

[Tumah]

After a lifetime of reading the Protestant Christian version of the Bible it has come to my mind that the Father that Lord Jesus was talking about is not the same God that most Christians are worshiping. Most Christians are worshiping the God of the Old Testament and not the Father of Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus said that He came to replace the Old Law and that the new commandments were to love the Father and one's neighbor. He also said that the only sin that can not be forgiven is the sin against the Holy Spirit. Lord Jesus also claimed that His Father was a loving entity. The God of the Old Testament is not a loving and forgiving entity and seems to be pretty fussy about things.

Christians for the most part seem to be worshiping the God of the Old Testament and not the Father of Jesus. On one hand the Christian God is a loving entity because Lord Jesus said so and on the other hand He is a monster that does not fit the discription that Lord Jesus gave of His Father. Either the old God changed because of Lord Jesus or the Father of Jesus is not the same God as the old God. Either way most of Christianity seems to have gone back to the old God and away from the Father of Lord Jesus.

?

I don't know. If I was in your place, I would have started my OP something like:

After a lifetime of reading the Protestant Christian version of the Bible... I decided to look into other versions to get a broader picture and background of the Bible. This would give me a greater understanding of what the wider Christian world believes and a basis with which to approach them. On that basis, I've come to the conclusion that...

Yet you didn't.
Why is that?

 

[mystic64]

Actually in Baha'i Scriptures, Baha'u'llah does not say I return. However, in principle it won't be wrong to say, the next manifestation of God is the return of Baha'u'llah. Since there is only one God, He Manifests Himself every time, in a new Temple. Once that Temple was Jesus, another time Baha'u'llah. But it was the same God who Manifested Himself in Them, and will always the same God that manifests Himself again and again.



Yes, I quote Baha'u'llah:

"O SON OF SPIRIT! I created thee rich, why dost thou bring thyself down to poverty? Noble I made thee, wherewith dost thou abase thyself? Out of the essence of knowledge I gave thee being, why seekest thou enlightenment from anyone beside Me? Out of the clay of love I molded thee, how dost thou busy thyself with another? Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting." Baha'u'llah



Yes, I quote Baha'u'llah:


"Say: Blessed the slumberer who is awakened by My Breeze. Blessed the lifeless one who is quickened through My reviving breaths. Blessed the eye that is solaced by gazing at My beauty. Blessed the wayfarer who directeth his steps towards the Tabernacle of My glory and majesty. Blessed the distressed one who seeketh refuge beneath the shadow of My canopy. Blessed the sore athirst who hasteneth to the soft-flowing waters of My loving-kindness. Blessed the insatiate soul who casteth away his selfish desires for love of Me and taketh his place at the banquet table which I have sent down from the heaven of divine bounty for My chosen ones. Blessed the abased one who layeth fast hold on the cord of My glory; and the needy one who entereth beneath the shadow of the Tabernacle of My wealth. Blessed the ignorant one who seeketh the fountain of My knowledge; and the heedless one who cleaveth to the cord of My remembrance. Blessed the soul that hath been raised to life through My quickening breath and hath gained admittance into My heavenly Kingdom. Blessed the man whom the sweet savours of reunion with Me have stirred and caused to draw nigh unto the Dayspring of My Revelation. Blessed the ear that hath heard and the tongue that hath borne witness and the eye that hath seen and recognized the Lord Himself, in His great glory and majesty, invested with grandeur and dominion. Blessed are they that have attained His presence. Blessed the man who hath sought enlightenment from the Day-Star of My Word. Blessed he who hath attired his head with the diadem of My love. Blessed is he who hath heard of My grief and hath arisen to aid Me among My people. Blessed is he who hath laid down his life in My path and hath borne manifold hardships for the sake of My Name. Blessed the man who, assured of My Word, hath arisen from among the dead to celebrate My praise. Blessed is he that hath been enraptured by My wondrous melodies and hath rent the veils asunder through the potency of My might. Blessed is he who hath remained faithful to My Covenant, and whom the things of the world have not kept back from attaining My Court of holiness. Blessed is the man who hath detached himself from all else but Me, hath soared in the atmosphere of My love, hath gained admittance into My Kingdom, gazed upon My realms of glory, quaffed the living waters of My bounty, hath drunk his fill from the heavenly river of My loving providence, acquainted himself with My Cause, apprehended that which I concealed within the treasury of My Words, and hath shone forth from the horizon of divine knowledge engaged in My praise and glorification. Verily, he is of Me. Upon him rest My mercy, My loving-kindness, My bounty and My glory."
Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 9-17

Well Investigate Truth, you are obviously in good hands. May the "force" be with you and all who are attempting to establish a relationship with the Loving Divine.

 

[mystic64]

I don't know. If I was in your place, I would have started my OP something like:

After a lifetime of reading the Protestant Christian version of the Bible... I decided to look into other versions to get a broader picture and background of the Bible. This would give me a greater understanding of what the wider Christian world believes and a basis with which to approach them. On that basis, I've come to the conclusion that...

Yet you didn't.
Why is that?

Tumah, you are a very wise person ! But that approach would not have generated 230 replies and 2,614 views in a relatively short period of time. So anyway I do appologise to you and the others, that are concerned about what you are conserned about, for exploring the dynamics of a "Hot topic" and viewer interest. Viewer numbers are the bread and butter of a successful commercial message board and because "Hot Topics" bring in the most viewer numbers exploring the dynamics of a Hot Topic is an interesting study. At least to me . Again, thank you for your input though!

 

[metis]

Metis to be honest with you, I am taking the Hindu approach. That is what makes me a Christian yogi mystic and probably the only person on this planet that is doing what I am doing . And that is also why I am pretty open minded when it comes to all faiths and paths that are an attempt to establish a relationship with the Loving Divine and Its many forms. To be a yogi (one who is seeking a yoked to God experience) one needs to have a master/guru to teach and guide them. I choose Jesus as my master when I was twenty-three, and was starting this yogi path, because I had known Him since I was five years old and Yogananda and other yogis said that Jesus knew about this yogi stuff. In truth any person that has successfully established a functional connection with the Loving Divine can be chosen as a master to guide one. And I have no problem with that. Metis, you and I really do not disagree with each other, it is just that you are confunsing me with other Chrtistians . And because of my approach to things I really can not represent Christianity because Christianity does not for the most part consider me Christian. And I am no different than all yogis, we all love our master/guru and of course think of them as the best . It is a human whatever it is called. So anyway when I am talking about Jesus I am talking about my experience with "my" guru and not about Christianity as a faith.

When you mentioned the possibility of "tapping into" the presence of God that exists within us you brought up something that I have some experience with and yes it can be done . There is a bit of a trick to it though and one should find someone that has done it to guide them durring the process that leads to achieving it. And even though I am an advanced student of the process I am still a student and am not qualified to be a master who can guide others through the process.

Thanks for the explanation.

As for myself, I have long considered Gandhi as being my main mentor, although I don't agree with him on everything, but then he would expect me to. The best single piece of advice I ever received from anyone in all my years was from him, and the results of taking that advice would take a long time to explain. The advice: since God doesn't speak, at least to probably most of us, in language, if you feel you should do something, first judge it to make certain it's moral, and then do it if it is-- no excuses unless it's literally impossible.

I followed that advice starting about 30 years ago, and it's unbelievable looking back where that has taken me. My mother passed away about 20 years ago, and one of her final words to me was "You certainly get around". If she could only have seen what took place after she died.

shalom

 

[CynthiaCypher]

They are worshiping the Demiurge, the Creator God. But Christ did not come from the Demiurge and neither did the Demiurge know him because if the Demiurge knew him then would not have crucified him. Christ comes from the Pleroma and his kingdom is not of this world. This is world belong to the Demiurge, he is the God of this world.

"We do, of course, speak “wisdom” among those who are spiritually mature, but it is not what is called wisdom by this world, nor by the powers-that-be, who soon will be only the powers that have been. The wisdom we speak of is that mysterious secret wisdom of God (Gnosis) which he planned before the creation for our glory today. None of the powers of this world have known this wisdom(The Archons)—if they had they would never have crucified the Lord of glory!" 1 Corinthians 2: 6-8

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Just about every religion in this world is the worship of the Demiurge.

 

[mystic64]

Thanks for the explanation.

As for myself, I have long considered Gandhi as being my main mentor, although I don't agree with him on everything, but then he would expect me to. The best single piece of advice I ever received from anyone in all my years was from him, and the results of taking that advice would take a long time to explain. The advice: since God doesn't speak, at least to probably most of us, in language, if you feel you should do something, first judge it to make certain it's moral, and then do it if it is-- no excuses unless it's literally impossible.

I followed that advice starting about 30 years ago, and it's unbelievable looking back where that has taken me. My mother passed away about 20 years ago, and one of her final words to me was "You certainly get around". If she could only have seen what took place after she died.

shalom

Gundhi was a wonderful person and his wisdom is eternal. I feel that you have choosen wisely !

 

[mystic64]

quote=CynthiaCypher
They are worshiping the Demiurge, the Creator God. But Christ did not come from the Demiurge and neither did the Demiurge know him because if the Demiurge knew him then would not have crucified him. Christ comes from the Pleroma and his kingdom is not of this world. This is world belong to the Demiurge, he is the God of this world.

"We do, of course, speak “wisdom” among those who are spiritually mature, but it is not what is called wisdom by this world, nor by the powers-that-be, who soon will be only the powers that have been. The wisdom we speak of is that mysterious secret wisdom of God (Gnosis) which he planned before the creation for our glory today. None of the powers of this world have known this wisdom(The Archons)—if they had they would never have crucified the Lord of glory!" 1 Corinthians 2: 6-8
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From the Wikipedia:

The demiurge is a concept from the Platonic, Neopythagorean, Middle Platonic, and Neoplatonic schools of philosophy for an artisan-like figure responsible for the fashioning and maintenance of the physical universe. The term was subsequently adopted by the Gnostics. Although a fashioner, the demiurge is not necessarily thought of as being the same as the creator figure in the familiar monotheistic sense, because both the demiurge itself plus the material from which the demiurge fashions the universe are considered either uncreated and eternal, or the product of some other being, depending on the system.
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Hi CynthiaCypher and welcome to this topic! Your input is interesting and fits this topic very well. There does seem to me to be some confusion, "Christianity didn't crucify Lord Jesus?" CynthiaCypher are you saying that Christians are also worshipping the "Demiurge"? And that the Father of Lord Jesus is atually of the Pleroma and His Kingdom? I am kind of inclined to agree with you, "But how can this be ?" Christians follow Lord Jesus as their Lord and Savior and He would be of the Pleroma?

 

[Muffled]

Yep, it is amazing how much Christians distort Tanakh, and even the words of their own Jesus. He never said he was God, or even a literal son of God. He said all could be children of God - in the adopted family sense.



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I believe this is too general a statement to be true. I believe if one were talking about JW's it might make sense but not everyone is a JW.

I believe all understanding of God's word must come from the Holy Spirit and that He never distorts His word.

I believe this statement is a distortion of what Jesus actually said.

I believe that depends on what one means by literal. If one means the usual ly derived meaning from the words, I would agree. However Jesus did affirm the appelation even if He didn't agree with what would normally be a literal interpretation.

I don't believe I have read His words as saying exactly that.

 

[Muffled]

They are worshiping the Demiurge, the Creator God. But Christ did not come from the Demiurge and neither did the Demiurge know him because if the Demiurge knew him then would not have crucified him. Christ comes from the Pleroma and his kingdom is not of this world. This is world belong to the Demiurge, he is the God of this world.

"We do, of course, speak “wisdom” among those who are spiritually mature, but it is not what is called wisdom by this world, nor by the powers-that-be, who soon will be only the powers that have been. The wisdom we speak of is that mysterious secret wisdom of God (Gnosis) which he planned before the creation for our glory today. None of the powers of this world have known this wisdom(The Archons)—if they had they would never have crucified the Lord of glory!" 1 Corinthians 2: 6-8

I believe there is no distinction between the supreme being, creator and Jesus when it comes to their approach to material and spiritual things.

I believe there is no evidence to support this statement and plenty of evidence to refute it.

I believe God always acts as one personand that person planned to be crucified and IMO orchestrated it.

I believe this is not so and that the theories are the theories of men and often incorrect.

One should read in context:

I Cor 2:10 But unto us God revealed them through the Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

 

[Muffled]

Actually in Baha'i Scriptures, Baha'u'llah does not say I return. However, in principle it won't be wrong to say, the next manifestation of God is the return of Baha'u'llah. Since there is only one God, He Manifests Himself every time, in a new Temple. Once that Temple was Jesus, another time Baha'u'llah. But it was the same God who Manifested Himself in Them, and will always the same God that manifests Himself again and again.



Yes, I quote Baha'u'llah:

"O SON OF SPIRIT! I created thee rich, why dost thou bring thyself down to poverty? Noble I made thee, wherewith dost thou abase thyself? Out of the essence of knowledge I gave thee being, why seekest thou enlightenment from anyone beside Me? Out of the clay of love I molded thee, how dost thou busy thyself with another? Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting." Baha'u'llah



Yes, I quote Baha'u'llah:


"Say: Blessed the slumberer who is awakened by My Breeze. Blessed the lifeless one who is quickened through My reviving breaths. Blessed the eye that is solaced by gazing at My beauty. Blessed the wayfarer who directeth his steps towards the Tabernacle of My glory and majesty. Blessed the distressed one who seeketh refuge beneath the shadow of My canopy. Blessed the sore athirst who hasteneth to the soft-flowing waters of My loving-kindness. Blessed the insatiate soul who casteth away his selfish desires for love of Me and taketh his place at the banquet table which I have sent down from the heaven of divine bounty for My chosen ones. Blessed the abased one who layeth fast hold on the cord of My glory; and the needy one who entereth beneath the shadow of the Tabernacle of My wealth. Blessed the ignorant one who seeketh the fountain of My knowledge; and the heedless one who cleaveth to the cord of My remembrance. Blessed the soul that hath been raised to life through My quickening breath and hath gained admittance into My heavenly Kingdom. Blessed the man whom the sweet savours of reunion with Me have stirred and caused to draw nigh unto the Dayspring of My Revelation. Blessed the ear that hath heard and the tongue that hath borne witness and the eye that hath seen and recognized the Lord Himself, in His great glory and majesty, invested with grandeur and dominion. Blessed are they that have attained His presence. Blessed the man who hath sought enlightenment from the Day-Star of My Word. Blessed he who hath attired his head with the diadem of My love. Blessed is he who hath heard of My grief and hath arisen to aid Me among My people. Blessed is he who hath laid down his life in My path and hath borne manifold hardships for the sake of My Name. Blessed the man who, assured of My Word, hath arisen from among the dead to celebrate My praise. Blessed is he that hath been enraptured by My wondrous melodies and hath rent the veils asunder through the potency of My might. Blessed is he who hath remained faithful to My Covenant, and whom the things of the world have not kept back from attaining My Court of holiness. Blessed is the man who hath detached himself from all else but Me, hath soared in the atmosphere of My love, hath gained admittance into My Kingdom, gazed upon My realms of glory, quaffed the living waters of My bounty, hath drunk his fill from the heavenly river of My loving providence, acquainted himself with My Cause, apprehended that which I concealed within the treasury of My Words, and hath shone forth from the horizon of divine knowledge engaged in My praise and glorification. Verily, he is of Me. Upon him rest My mercy, My loving-kindness, My bounty and My glory."
Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 9-17

I don't believe the Baha'u'llah was an incarnation of God as Jesus was. I do believe he can be re-incarnated as the case is for most of us.