Are Christians actually worshiping the Father of Jesus?

[mystic64]

After a lifetime of reading the Protestant Christian version of the Bible it has come to my mind that the Father that Lord Jesus was talking about is not the same God that most Christians are worshiping. Most Christians are worshiping the God of the Old Testament and not the Father of Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus said that He came to replace the Old Law and that the new commandments were to love the Father and one's neighbor. He also said that the only sin that can not be forgiven is the sin against the Holy Spirit. Lord Jesus also claimed that His Father was a loving entity. The God of the Old Testament is not a loving and forgiving entity and seems to be pretty fussy about things.

Christians for the most part seem to be worshiping the God of the Old Testament and not the Father of Jesus. On one hand the Christian God is a loving entity because Lord Jesus said so and on the other hand He is a monster that does not fit the discription that Lord Jesus gave of His Father. Either the old God changed because of Lord Jesus or the Father of Jesus is not the same God as the old God. Either way most of Christianity seems to have gone back to the old God and away from the Father of Lord Jesus.

?

 

[Sees]

You can wonder if the perception of a deity actually dictates the nature of the deity and if the nature of a deity could ever be properly transmitted with today's language and concepts let alone 2,000+ years ago.

People only worship their idea of stuff regardless. And it isn't a bad thing just lots of confusion and denial.

 

[jtartar]

After a lifetime of reading the Protestant Christian version of the Bible it has come to my mind that the Father that Lord Jesus was talking about is not the same God that most Christians are worshiping. Most Christians are worshiping the God of the Old Testament and not the Father of Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus said that He came to replace the Old Law and that the new commandments were to love the Father and one's neighbor. He also said that the only sin that can not be forgiven is the sin against the Holy Spirit. Lord Jesus also claimed that His Father was a loving entity. The God of the Old Testament is not a loving and forgiving entity and seems to be pretty fussy about things.

Christians for the most part seem to be worshiping the God of the Old Testament and not the Father of Jesus. On one hand the Christian God is a loving entity because Lord Jesus said so and on the other hand He is a monster that does not fit the discription that Lord Jesus gave of His Father. Either the old God changed because of Lord Jesus or the Father of Jesus is not the same God as the old God. Either way most of Christianity seems to have gone back to the old God and away from the Father of Lord Jesus.

?

Mystic,
Jesus is indeed worshipping the ONLY TRUE GOD, whose Personal, Proper NAME is Jehovah, in English, John 17:1-5. Notice that Jesus was with this God before the world was. This is the same God that Jesus said was GREATER than he is, John 14:28. The same God that controls things that Jesus does not, Matt 20:23, and knows things that Jesus does not, Matt 24:36.
John the apostle knew that the God he and Jesus worshiped was the God who created the Heavens and the earth and all the things in it, Isa 45:18, Rev 4:11, the King of Eternity, IMMORTAL, THE ONLY GOD, 1Tim 1:17.
When Paul wrote Hebrews, he recognized that the God of the Hebrew Scriptures was the same God as in his day, Heb 1:1-13.
The first prophecy recorded in the Holy Scriptures was at Gen 3:15, and that scripture is still in the process of fulfillment, Jesus is the seed that will crush the seed of Satan's head shortly. The Hebrew Scriptures are a beginning and the Greek Scriptures are the concluding fulfillment of Jehovah's purpose for this earth.

 

[RabbiO]

After a lifetime of reading the Protestant Christian version of the Bible it has come to my mind that the Father that Lord Jesus was talking about is not the same God that most Christians are worshiping. Most Christians are worshiping the God of the Old Testament and not the Father of Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus said that He came to replace the Old Law and that the new commandments were to love the Father and one's neighbor. He also said that the only sin that can not be forgiven is the sin against the Holy Spirit. Lord Jesus also claimed that His Father was a loving entity. The God of the Old Testament is not a loving and forgiving entity and seems to be pretty fussy about things.

Christians for the most part seem to be worshiping the God of the Old Testament and not the Father of Jesus. On one hand the Christian God is a loving entity because Lord Jesus said so and on the other hand He is a monster that does not fit the discription that Lord Jesus gave of His Father. Either the old God changed because of Lord Jesus or the Father of Jesus is not the same God as the old God. Either way most of Christianity seems to have gone back to the old God and away from the Father of Lord Jesus.

I wasn't sure whether to be facetious and say. "I really must get myself a copy of this Old Testament so I can read about this monster deity." or just do this

You do not seem to be aware that the "new commandments" you mention are from Hebrew scripture and not original to Jesus.

Peter

 

[GoodbyeDave]

The original belief of the Israelites was the same as that of other Canaanites. The was one God: God Most High, Father of Mankind, Creator of the Earth. Among his creations were the Congregation of the Gods {Ps 82) or the Assembly of the Holy Ones. As Augustine said, you can call then gods (as often in the psalms) or call them angels: it doesn't really matter.

As for Yahweh, he was the guardian angel or god of the Israelites: "When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, He fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the children of God ; for the Yahweh’s portion is his people, Jacob his own inheritance." (Deut. 32; from the Septuagint, for the Hebrew text is later and has be altered). So Yahweh told Moses "I am your god", not "I am God the Father Almighty", and Moses asked his name. Also Jephthah obviously considered Kemosh as equal to Yahweh. (Judges 11) Eighth-century inscriptions in Israel show that El (God} and Yahweh were still distinguished. The idea that they were the same appears about the same time in Judah but it wasn't fully established until after the Babylonian Captivity (fifth century).

So are Christians and Jews worshiping the same god? Well, since they are both intending to worship the creator, they both intend to. As Augustine and Aquinas pointed out, if you acknowledge a supreme being as creator and worship him, then there's only one available, so to speak! But if the Jews are worshiping the god who regards them as "his people", then that does complicate the issue. In Roman times, Marcion compiled a table of contrasting quotations from the OT and NT, to show that one promoted a "just god" but the other a "good god".

I find it noteworthy that Jesus used the term Father, which was not used of Yahweh. He also dismissed conversion to Judaism in his denunciation of the Pharisees, and said that Judaism was not the only way to heaven when he healed the centurions' son.

Needless to say, this view is controversial in traditional circles, although serious scholars have accepted for years that Judaism was created after Moses and Solomon.

 

[nazz]

After a lifetime of reading the Protestant Christian version of the Bible it has come to my mind that the Father that Lord Jesus was talking about is not the same God that most Christians are worshiping. Most Christians are worshiping the God of the Old Testament and not the Father of Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus said that He came to replace the Old Law and that the new commandments were to love the Father and one's neighbor. He also said that the only sin that can not be forgiven is the sin against the Holy Spirit. Lord Jesus also claimed that His Father was a loving entity. The God of the Old Testament is not a loving and forgiving entity and seems to be pretty fussy about things.

Christians for the most part seem to be worshiping the God of the Old Testament and not the Father of Jesus. On one hand the Christian God is a loving entity because Lord Jesus said so and on the other hand He is a monster that does not fit the discription that Lord Jesus gave of His Father. Either the old God changed because of Lord Jesus or the Father of Jesus is not the same God as the old God. Either way most of Christianity seems to have gone back to the old God and away from the Father of Lord Jesus.

?

Yes, this concurs with the Gnostic view except it is a bit more complex than that. It's not really the deity of the OT vs. the deity of the NT but rather there are two opposing portraits of God given throughout the entire Bible which are irreconcilable.

In all fairness to orthodox Christians I think it is not so much that they choose to worship the god of wrath and judgement over the god of love and mercy but rather they try to blend the two together. I think most Christians focus on the latter while trying to still acknowledge the former. But there are those religious people who strongly identify with the former.

 

[Jainarayan]

I wasn't sure whether to be facetious and say. "I really must get myself a copy of this Old Testament so I can read about this monster deity." or just do this

You do not seem to be aware that the "new commandments" you mention are from Hebrew scripture and not original to Jesus.

Peter

A personal curiosity to satisfy:

I know Jews don't worship the "monster deity" or see God that way. I am curious what the Jewish view (I know, that may be a broad stroke) is of the harshness and violence in the stories, e.g. the sacking of Jericho. That is, why the stories came about and why they're kept as part of tradition. Is there a deeper meaning to all of them that just isn't visible to laypersons? Do they have a story to tell that we don't see without the guidance of a teacher? Personally I think that's the case, and if it is the case, it's unfortunate that the stories and God's "behavior" are always taken out of context.

 

[loverOfTruth]

After a lifetime of reading the Protestant Christian version of the Bible it has come to my mind that the Father that Lord Jesus was talking about is not the same God that most Christians are worshiping. Most Christians are worshiping the God of the Old Testament and not the Father of Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus said that He came to replace the Old Law and that the new commandments were to love the Father and one's neighbor. He also said that the only sin that can not be forgiven is the sin against the Holy Spirit. Lord Jesus also claimed that His Father was a loving entity. The God of the Old Testament is not a loving and forgiving entity and seems to be pretty fussy about things.

Christians for the most part seem to be worshiping the God of the Old Testament and not the Father of Jesus. On one hand the Christian God is a loving entity because Lord Jesus said so and on the other hand He is a monster that does not fit the discription that Lord Jesus gave of His Father. Either the old God changed because of Lord Jesus or the Father of Jesus is not the same God as the old God. Either way most of Christianity seems to have gone back to the old God and away from the Father of Lord Jesus.

?

Of course, the Father presented by the Christians is different than the one in OT, given that the Father of the Christians has a physical Son. Was that a surprise to you ?

But the real Question is if Jesus(pbuh) ever portrayed the Father as anything different than what is described in the OT or not. As you can clearly see :

NT : “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ (Mark 12:29-30)

OT: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a] 5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength." Deuteronomy 6:4-5

If,what's on red above is true, why would he say the following ?

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them...Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven..." Matthew 5:17-19

 

[Sees]

Good post

The original belief of the Israelites was the same as that of other Canaanites. The was one God: God Most High, Father of Mankind, Creator of the Earth. Among his creations were the Congregation of the Gods {Ps 82) or the Assembly of the Holy Ones. As Augustine said, you can call then gods (as often in the psalms) or call them angels: it doesn't really matter.

As for Yahweh, he was the guardian angel or god of the Israelites: "When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, He fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the children of God ; for the Yahweh’s portion is his people, Jacob his own inheritance." (Deut. 32; from the Septuagint, for the Hebrew text is later and has be altered). So Yahweh told Moses "I am your god", not "I am God the Father Almighty", and Moses asked his name. Also Jephthah obviously considered Kemosh as equal to Yahweh. (Judges 11) Eighth-century inscriptions in Israel show that El (God} and Yahweh were still distinguished. The idea that they were the same appears about the same time in Judah but it wasn't fully established until after the Babylonian Captivity (fifth century).

So are Christians and Jews worshiping the same god? Well, since they are both intending to worship the creator, they both intend to. As Augustine and Aquinas pointed out, if you acknowledge a supreme being as creator and worship him, then there's only one available, so to speak! But if the Jews are worshiping the god who regards them as "his people", then that does complicate the issue. In Roman times, Marcion compiled a table of contrasting quotations from the OT and NT, to show that one promoted a "just god" but the other a "good god".

I find it noteworthy that Jesus used the term Father, which was not used of Yahweh. He also dismissed conversion to Judaism in his denunciation of the Pharisees, and said that Judaism was not the only way to heaven when he healed the centurions' son.

Needless to say, this view is controversial in traditional circles, although serious scholars have accepted for years that Judaism was created after Moses and Solomon.

 

[Sees]

When I read the OP I thought of you bro

Yes, this concurs with the Gnostic view except it is a bit more complex than that. It's not really the deity of the OT vs. the deity of the NT but rather there are two opposing portraits of God given throughout the entire Bible which are irreconcilable.

In all fairness to orthodox Christians I think it is not so much that they choose to worship the god of wrath and judgement over the god of love and mercy but rather they try to blend the two together. I think most Christians focus on the latter while trying to still acknowledge the former. But there are those religious people who strongly identify with the former.

 

[metis]

A personal curiosity to satisfy:

I know Jews don't worship the "monster deity" or see God that way. I am curious what the Jewish view (I know, that may be a broad stroke) is of the harshness and violence in the stories, e.g. the sacking of Jericho. That is, why the stories came about and why they're kept as part of tradition. Is there a deeper meaning to all of them that just isn't visible to laypersons? Do they have a story to tell that we don't see without the guidance of a teacher? Personally I think that's the case, and if it is the case, it's unfortunate that the stories and God's "behavior" are always taken out of context.

I just want to throw in my two cents and then I hope RabbiO takes it further.

What we see with both Torah and Tanakh are narratives that were written well after the events they covered, and we know this because of glottochronology-- the study of the evolution of language. Therefore, the authors covered either real events or somewhat imaginary ones, and then placed God into them-- accurately or not.

A better view can be arrived at when one reads the Writings of the Prophets whereas you don't find nearly as many of these sharp edges. But it doesn't stop there as we really are more the people of the Talmud, which really takes the general direction of Torah and Tanakh and puts it into a context that's especially heavy on being compassionate towards all and also practicing justice. A parallel can be somewhat drawn in how we use the Constitution here in the States, whereas so much has been clarified and expanded upon by the many Supreme Court decisions over the centuries.

Hopefully RabbiO will chime in with more.

 

[Jainarayan]

I just want to throw in my two cents and then I hope RabbiO takes it further.

What we see with both Torah and Tanakh are narratives that were written well after the events they covered, and we know this because of glottochronology-- the study of the evolution of language. Therefore, the authors covered either real events or somewhat imaginary ones, and then placed God into them-- accurately or not.

That makes sense, and pretty much what I thought. I come to it from a (formerly) Christian p.o.v., which is (sometimes) heavily distorted.

A better view can be arrived at when one reads the Writings of the Prophets whereas you don't find nearly as many of these sharp edges. But it doesn't stop there as we really are more the people of the Talmud, which really takes the general direction of Torah and Tanakh and puts it into a context that's especially heavy on being compassionate towards all and also practicing justice. A parallel can be somewhat drawn in how we use the Constitution here in the States, whereas so much has been clarified and expanded upon by the many Supreme Court decisions over the centuries.

Hopefully RabbiO will chime in with more.

That makes a lot of sense too. That's the sort of view I thought there was. It seems that the books after Deuteronomy are largely forgotten by all but Jewish and rabbinical scholars, and Jewish laypersons. I know there is a lot of great stuff in the books of the prophets and other histories.

 

[Sand Dancer]

God is not Jesus' literal father, but it shows a close relationship.

 

[kjw47]

After a lifetime of reading the Protestant Christian version of the Bible it has come to my mind that the Father that Lord Jesus was talking about is not the same God that most Christians are worshiping. Most Christians are worshiping the God of the Old Testament and not the Father of Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus said that He came to replace the Old Law and that the new commandments were to love the Father and one's neighbor. He also said that the only sin that can not be forgiven is the sin against the Holy Spirit. Lord Jesus also claimed that His Father was a loving entity. The God of the Old Testament is not a loving and forgiving entity and seems to be pretty fussy about things.

Christians for the most part seem to be worshiping the God of the Old Testament and not the Father of Jesus. On one hand the Christian God is a loving entity because Lord Jesus said so and on the other hand He is a monster that does not fit the discription that Lord Jesus gave of His Father. Either the old God changed because of Lord Jesus or the Father of Jesus is not the same God as the old God. Either way most of Christianity seems to have gone back to the old God and away from the Father of Lord Jesus.

?

Jesus was the exact image of God, he lived to do Gods will 24/7, as do his followers.
There is 0 room for sin in Gods world, sin is basically worship to the devil.
Jesus will come to earth at Harmageddon and rid it of all wickedness( a lot of humans will perish)--Gods kingdom will take control--eventually a cure all.
YHWH(Jehovah)Father) is the only true God -Jesus taught-John 17:1-6)also psalm 83:18

 

[psychoslice]

Jesus the man never took credit for anything he did, all credit went to the Father, or Source of all there is, in fact he really did nothing

 

[CMike]

Mystic,
Jesus is indeed worshipping the ONLY TRUE GOD, whose Personal, Proper NAME is Jehovah, in English, John 17:1-5. Notice that Jesus was with this God before the world was. This is the same God that Jesus said was GREATER than he is, John 14:28. The same God that controls things that Jesus does not, Matt 20:23, and knows things that Jesus does not, Matt 24:36.
John the apostle knew that the God he and Jesus worshiped was the God who created the Heavens and the earth and all the things in it, Isa 45:18, Rev 4:11, the King of Eternity, IMMORTAL, THE ONLY GOD, 1Tim 1:17.
When Paul wrote Hebrews, he recognized that the God of the Hebrew Scriptures was the same God as in his day, Heb 1:1-13.
The first prophecy recorded in the Holy Scriptures was at Gen 3:15, and that scripture is still in the process of fulfillment, Jesus is the seed that will crush the seed of Satan's head shortly. The Hebrew Scriptures are a beginning and the Greek Scriptures are the concluding fulfillment of Jehovah's purpose for this earth.

You do realize that their can only be one divine being accordinng to the Torah?

Hear O Israel, the L-rd is our G-D, the L-ord is ONE (Deut)

I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. ...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)

...I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. (Isaiah, 46:9)

... so that all the peoples of the Earth may know that the Lord is God and that there is no other. (1 Kings, 8:60)

Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the Earth; for I am God, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:22)

This is what the Lord says…"Surely God is with you, and there is no other; there is no other God." (Isaiah, 45:14)

...The Lord our God, the Lord is one. (Deuteronomy, 6:4)

You are my witness--the words of Hashem--and My servant, whom I have chosen, so that you will know and believe in Me, and understand that I am He; before me nothing was created by a G-D, and after Me it shall not be (Isaiah 43:10)

... O Lord; no deeds can compare with Yours. All the nations You have made will come and worship before You, O Lord; they will bring glory to Your name. For You are great and do marvelous deeds; You alone are God. (Psalms, 86:8-10)

O Lord ...You alone are God over all the kingdoms of the Earth. You have made heaven and Earth. (Isaiah, 37:16)

... all kingdoms on Earth may know that You alone, O Lord, are God. (Isaiah, 37:20)

This is what the Lord says—your Redeemer, Who formed you in the womb: I am the Lord, Who has made all things, Who alone stretched out the heavens, Who spread out the Earth by Myself. (Isaiah, 44:24)

Since ancient times no one has heard, no ear has perceived, no eye has seen any God besides You, who acts on behalf of those who wait for Him. (Isaiah, 64:4)

For this is what the Lord says—He Who created the heavens, He is God; He Who fashioned and made the Earth, He founded it; He did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited—He says: "I am the Lord, and there is no other." (Isaiah, 45:18)

...Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no god apart from Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but Me. (Isaiah, 45:21)

See now that I Myself am He! There is no god besides Me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal... (Deuteronomy, 32:39)

...you may know there is no one like the Lord our God. (Exodus, 8:10)

O Lord... there is no god like You in heaven above or on Earth below... (1 Kings, 8:23; 2 Chronicles, 6:14)

Then Asa called to the Lord his God and said, "Lord, there is no one like You to help the powerless against the mighty..."(2 Chronicles, 14:11)

I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from Me there is no savior. (Isaiah, 43:11)

There is no one like You, O Lord, and there is no god but You, as we have heard with our own ears. (1 Chronicles, 17:20; 2 Samuel, 7:22)

There is no one holy like the Lord; there is no one besides You; there is no strength like our God. (1 Samuel, 2:2)

His wisdom is profound, His power is vast. Who has resisted Him and come out unscathed. (Job, 9:4)

For You are great and do marvelous deeds; You alone are God. (Psalms, 86:10)

Praise Him for His acts of power; praise Him for His surpassing greatness. (Psalms, 150:2)

You alone are the Lord. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the Earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship You. (Nehemiah, 9:6)

They will say of Me, "In the Lord alone are righteousness and strength."... (Isaiah, 45:24)

You were shown these things so that you might know that the Lord is God; besides Him there is no other. (Deuteronomy, 4:35)

... Is there any god besides Me? No, there is no other strong one; I know not one. (Isaiah, 44:8)

This is what the Lord says—I am the first and I am the last; apart from Me there is no god. (Isaiah, 44:6)

Who has done this and carried it through, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, the Lord—with the first of them and with the last—I am He." (Isaiah, 41:4)

 

[Ingledsva]

You do realize that their can only be one divine being accordinng to the Torah?

Hear O Israel, the L-rd is our G-D, the L-ord is ONE (Deut)

I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. ...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)

...I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. (Isaiah, 46:9)

... so that all the peoples of the Earth may know that the Lord is God and that there is no other. (1 Kings, 8:60)

Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the Earth; for I am God, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:22)

This is what the Lord says…"Surely God is with you, and there is no other; there is no other God." (Isaiah, 45:14)

...The Lord our God, the Lord is one. (Deuteronomy, 6:4)

You are my witness--the words of Hashem--and My servant, whom I have chosen, so that you will know and believe in Me, and understand that I am He; before me nothing was created by a G-D, and after Me it shall not be (Isaiah 43:10)

... O Lord; no deeds can compare with Yours. All the nations You have made will come and worship before You, O Lord; they will bring glory to Your name. For You are great and do marvelous deeds; You alone are God. (Psalms, 86:8-10)

O Lord ...You alone are God over all the kingdoms of the Earth. You have made heaven and Earth. (Isaiah, 37:16)

... all kingdoms on Earth may know that You alone, O Lord, are God. (Isaiah, 37:20)

This is what the Lord says—your Redeemer, Who formed you in the womb: I am the Lord, Who has made all things, Who alone stretched out the heavens, Who spread out the Earth by Myself. (Isaiah, 44:24)

Since ancient times no one has heard, no ear has perceived, no eye has seen any God besides You, who acts on behalf of those who wait for Him. (Isaiah, 64:4)

For this is what the Lord says—He Who created the heavens, He is God; He Who fashioned and made the Earth, He founded it; He did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited—He says: "I am the Lord, and there is no other." (Isaiah, 45:18)

...Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no god apart from Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but Me. (Isaiah, 45:21)

See now that I Myself am He! There is no god besides Me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal... (Deuteronomy, 32:39)

...you may know there is no one like the Lord our God. (Exodus, 8:10)

O Lord... there is no god like You in heaven above or on Earth below... (1 Kings, 8:23; 2 Chronicles, 6:14)

Then Asa called to the Lord his God and said, "Lord, there is no one like You to help the powerless against the mighty..."(2 Chronicles, 14:11)

I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from Me there is no savior. (Isaiah, 43:11)

There is no one like You, O Lord, and there is no god but You, as we have heard with our own ears. (1 Chronicles, 17:20; 2 Samuel, 7:22)

There is no one holy like the Lord; there is no one besides You; there is no strength like our God. (1 Samuel, 2:2)

His wisdom is profound, His power is vast. Who has resisted Him and come out unscathed. (Job, 9:4)

For You are great and do marvelous deeds; You alone are God. (Psalms, 86:10)

Praise Him for His acts of power; praise Him for His surpassing greatness. (Psalms, 150:2)

You alone are the Lord. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the Earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship You. (Nehemiah, 9:6)

They will say of Me, "In the Lord alone are righteousness and strength."... (Isaiah, 45:24)

You were shown these things so that you might know that the Lord is God; besides Him there is no other. (Deuteronomy, 4:35)

... Is there any god besides Me? No, there is no other strong one; I know not one. (Isaiah, 44:8)

This is what the Lord says—I am the first and I am the last; apart from Me there is no god. (Isaiah, 44:6)

Who has done this and carried it through, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, the Lord—with the first of them and with the last—I am He." (Isaiah, 41:4)

Yep, it is amazing how much Christians distort Tanakh, and even the words of their own Jesus. He never said he was God, or even a literal son of God. He said all could be children of God - in the adopted family sense.



*

 

[mystic64]

You can wonder if the perception of a deity actually dictates the nature of the deity and if the nature of a deity could ever be properly transmitted with today's language and concepts let alone 2,000+ years ago.

People only worship their idea of stuff regardless. And it isn't a bad thing just lots of confusion and denial.

Sees there is never any arguing with your wisdom.

 

[mystic64]

I wasn't sure whether to be facetious and say. "I really must get myself a copy of this Old Testament so I can read about this monster deity." or just do this

You do not seem to be aware that the "new commandments" you mention are from Hebrew scripture and not original to Jesus.

Peter

You are right, I am not aware of that. But at the same time they are not considered the first and last commandments.-

 

[mystic64]

The original belief of the Israelites was the same as that of other Canaanites. The was one God: God Most High, Father of Mankind, Creator of the Earth. Among his creations were the Congregation of the Gods {Ps 82) or the Assembly of the Holy Ones. As Augustine said, you can call then gods (as often in the psalms) or call them angels: it doesn't really matter.

As for Yahweh, he was the guardian angel or god of the Israelites: "When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, He fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the children of God ; for the Yahweh’s portion is his people, Jacob his own inheritance." (Deut. 32; from the Septuagint, for the Hebrew text is later and has be altered). So Yahweh told Moses "I am your god", not "I am God the Father Almighty", and Moses asked his name. Also Jephthah obviously considered Kemosh as equal to Yahweh. (Judges 11) Eighth-century inscriptions in Israel show that El (God} and Yahweh were still distinguished. The idea that they were the same appears about the same time in Judah but it wasn't fully established until after the Babylonian Captivity (fifth century).

So are Christians and Jews worshiping the same god? Well, since they are both intending to worship the creator, they both intend to. As Augustine and Aquinas pointed out, if you acknowledge a supreme being as creator and worship him, then there's only one available, so to speak! But if the Jews are worshiping the god who regards them as "his people", then that does complicate the issue. In Roman times, Marcion compiled a table of contrasting quotations from the OT and NT, to show that one promoted a "just god" but the other a "good god".

I find it noteworthy that Jesus used the term Father, which was not used of Yahweh. He also dismissed conversion to Judaism in his denunciation of the Pharisees, and said that Judaism was not the only way to heaven when he healed the centurions' son.

Needless to say, this view is controversial in traditional circles, although serious scholars have accepted for years that Judaism was created after Moses and Solomon.

Hi David and welcome to the message board. I am speachless . For there to be evidence that what I am proposing could be possibly true is beyond my wildest spectulation. Thank you for your input, it was very helpful to me personally. Also some translate the word for God in Genesis as plural, "Gods". Does that have any possible part in what you have presented?