Are Christians actually worshiping the Father of Jesus?

[loverOfTruth]

My point is, the scripture is comparing what Jesus was before he became a servant, and what Jesus became after he became a servant. Something changed, by context.

Once again Jesus(pbuh) never claimed to have become Human from God. You or other Christians can claim all you want, but that still doesn't hold any value unless you can show that Jesus(pbuh) made such claims.

As Phil 2:5-9 indicates, Jesus completely subjected himself to the Father, as a human. Of course he didn't come to earth as "God", he came to earth as a servant of God and to do a will of God, and we can see throughout the Gospels that Jesus was treading on high waters when he made certain statements, so if he came on earth saying "This is my will, I am God", then that certainly would have created all kinds of controversy...instead of having to defend himself with every single claim that he made, he made sure he let people know that he is doing the will of the Father, and the Father has authority over him, as Phil 2:5-9 indicates.

Once again no clear unambiguous statements of Jesus(pbuh) say any of that. That is Paul speaking not Jesus(pbuh). If Jesus(pbuh) wanted people to worship him, there would be no confusion in telling people that 'This is my will, I am God, Worship me" and in fact that would be the right thing to do if that was True.

So still no unambiguous statement of Jesus(pbuh) stating He is God, which should be the most important commandment to teach his disciples if that was indeed True. On the contrary, you find clear unambiguous statements like this in the Bible : "About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people." (Luke 24:19)

Peace.

 

[loverOfTruth]

I will admit, the "teaching" part is difficult to respond to, since it would appear to contradict John 21:17, HOWEVER, it would seem as if Jesus' knowledge is something that he could temporary place on "hold", and in an effort to fully subject himself to the Father and allow himself to make the claim, he had to place his knowledge on hold so the Father could "teach him".

Once again some mumbo jumbo ('hold knowledge') that Jesus(pbuh) never claimed. Either you have knowledge or you don't. Otherwise, his entire life was pretending to be someone he was not - doesn't sound like a sign of anything divine. It is sad how far Paul has taken the teachings of Jesus(pbuh) and what people believe even after seeing the clear contradictions with their own eyes.

Obviously Jesus has more than one name.

So ? And imagine if Jesus(pbuh) comes back today and you call him Jesus(pbuh)...he won't even look back ... cause that wasn't even his name.

And in that same translation, the prior verse states

"In the beginning was the one
who is called the Word.
The Word was with God
and was truly God." John 1:1

Do you see that? It states "The Word was WITH God, and was TRULY GOD". So if you grant John 1:3, then you have to grant John 1:1. This is YOUR translation, the one that YOU brought to the table, not mines.

Sure, we also believe that God's WORD proceeded to Mary(pbuh) and that's how Jesus(pbuh) was born and so is everything else is created with God's word as well. So it remains that Jesus(pbuh) was Created and he was certainly not the Creator.

So the question becomes, of all the times the word is used, what were the intentions of the individuals that were bowing? In Acts 10:26, Peter told Corneilus "Stand up, I am only a man myself"....once again, same word used. So Peter understood Corneilus act as an act of worship. Jesus never rebuked anyone from offering that kind of reverance to him, so why would Peter do it?

What it means is that 'bowing down' could be a sign of respect and not Worship.

First off, the word "greater" is meant to mean in terms of position. In a school setting, the principal is greater than the teacher, by POSITION..rank. But is the principal any better of a PERSON than any of the teachers? Maybe, maybe not. But it is only in terms of rank that the principal is greater than the teachers. What Jesus is speaking of is rank. But when it comes to both the Father and the Son's NATURE, the nature of their Deity, they are equal. That is why Phil 2:5-9 states that Jesus did not see EQUALITY with God something to be grasped, but made himself NOTHING, taking the form of a servant." If he served the Father from the very moment he was "created", then the scripture wouldn't tell us that he TOOK THE FORM of something that he already was. So what was he before he took the form of a servant? He was the second person in the Trinity...God.

If Jesus(pbuh) was less in position, he is not God. Once again you are giving me some statements of Paul not Jesus(pbuh).

You are taking the scriptures out of context. In the CONTEXT of John 10:30, he started off saying "No one can snatch them (his sheep) out of his hand ". Then in the following verses he said "No one can snatch them out of my Father's hand". Do you see the parrallel? The sheep are in both the Son and the Father's hand, and no one can snatch them out of either hand...therefore, He said "I and the Father are one".

But he also said Father is Greater and of course that concept would be true for any Messenger/Prophet of God. God gives the Prophets the authority and people have to follow/obey them. They are the true means to God. That doesn't make them God.

Oh cmon now. Jesus said to know the Father is to know him, and to see him is to see the Father (John 14:6), so obviously this would apply to love as well. Second, think about it; Could any other man make such statements?? Can any other person that live ever make the statement "to know the father is to know me; or if you see me, you see the Father?" Jesus could not make these statements if he wasn't equal with God in some way? What was that? Moral perfection. He is that absolute standard for what it means to live a holy life, something that we all fall short of. You cannot be on the same level of God morally, if you are not yourself God.

Once again the same concept is true for any Prophet. Even the Qur'an says something similar :
"Say, [O Muhammad], "If you should love Allah , then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." (Al Qur'an 3:31)


So the bottom line is that Not only that Jesus(pbuh) never stated in any unambiguous way that He(Jesus) was God rather Jesus(pbuh) stated in clear and unambiguous way that there is only One God and that's not Jesus :

Mark 12 NIV - The Parable of the Tenants - Jesus then - Bible Gateway
Under the section titled 'The Greatest Commandment'
28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e]
....
32 “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.
....
34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.”

So Even Jesus(pbuh) thought that God is One really means God is One and the person who believes in that, is close to the kingdom of God.
This is exactly the same and first commandment of Islam : There is no god but God.

And yet again, in Clear, Unequivocal and Unambiguous statements in the Bible saying 'There is no god but One God'.
"We know that 'An idol is nothing at all in the world' and that 'There is no God but one.' 1 Corinthians 8:4.

And yet again :
"And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." Mark 10:17, KJV

Which makes it even clearer that Jesus is referring to the One and Only God(and not himself) as good.

Peace.

 

[mystic64]

Quote = LoverofTruth
Originally Posted by Call_of_the_Wild
No, not so fast. If they were sinless, and God is sinless, then how is God at the highest level of purity? Unless you are stating that God is at a highest level because it is impossible for God to sin, in contrast to the Prophets who could sin, but didn't sin? That is a fundemental difference. If that is the case then, you are saying that Jesus could sin, but he didn't sin...so my question is, would any one of the other Prophets death be sufficient as a atonement of sins for mankind?

God is the most Holy, the most Pure and all sin is done against Him - so God does not sin, human beings sin. Similarly all Prophets could sin but they didn't since they are the representative of God and best examples for mankind. That includes Prophet Muhammad(pbuh), Prophet Jesus(pbuh) etc.

So now to answer your question about 'would any one of the other Prophets death be sufficient as a atonement of sins for mankind? '

God doesn't need anyone's atonement to Forgive sin. No one shall bear the burden of others.

[Ezekiel 18:20] “The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son.”

And ...

[Deuteronomy 24:16] “The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.”
------
Lover of Truth, I like how you present your argument. Everything but the above quote is pretty standard, but the angle of the above quote is new to me and could be considered pivotal because it negates the Law of Grace which is one of the major foundations for the Christian faith.

With that said, I personally consider the goal to be one of establishing a personal relationship with God and I consider all Holy Scripture of all faiths to be "clues" on how this can be done. I am a follower of Lord Jesus because I have sixty years of personal experience with Him on a one on one bases that started when I was five years old. I know Him personally. Which is why I consider myself a Christian mystic and not what is generally considered an orthodox Christian, Protestant or otherwise. And also why I find how you as one who is of the Muslim faith, approach a relationship with God, intriguing and interesting.

Now, because negating the Law of Grace pretty much negates the Christian religion, I am inclined, should you be willing, to explore your premise in more depth. Ezekiel 18:20 and Deuteronomy 24:16 refer to the Old Testament Jewish Law and they say that a father can not be held accountable for the sins of a son and that a son can not be held accountable for the sins of a father. They are not talking about one son helping another son to approach the father inspite of the fact that the other son has sinned. Now correct me if I am wrong, in Islam each son is personally responsible before the Father for their own sins, but in Christianity if one is a follower of Lord Jesus, Lord Jesus accepts the responsibility of His brother's sins before the Father. And because of the relationship between Lord Jesus and the Father, the Father does allow this. Now, based on my sixty years of personal experience with the Father and with Lord Jesus this is real whether Lord Jesus died and resurrected or not. And there is also presedence for this in Hinu yogi tradition where the master/guru (teacher) takes on the sins/Kama of the student to assist the student in his journey toward the Creator/God because one has to be sin/Karma free before one can be in union with the Creator/God.

 

[mystic64]

During the Christian dispensation all drew grace from Christ. But Bible prophesied of future Manifestation of God, who would be independent of Christ.

chapter 14, verse 30 of the Gospel of John, where the Lord Christ saith, ‘Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the Prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.’ The Prince of this world is Baha'u'llah, the Prophet Founder of Baha'i Faith; and ‘hath nothing in Me’ signifieth: after Me all will draw grace from Me, but He is independent of Me, and will draw no grace from Me. That is, He is rich beyond any grace of Mine.

The Christian Leaders owing to belief that no other Manifestations of God would appear after Christ, have interpreted 'the Prince of this World' as Satan, though there is no verse in Bible that ever calls Satan the Prince of this World. (prince of the power of the air is different)

One of the main teachings of Bible is that "interpretations belong to God" (Genesis 40:8). Meaning that no one other than God Himself can know and explain the meaning of the Prophecies and their fulfillment. Once a Manifestation of God comes, He explains the interpretations of Prophecies related to Him. Just as when Jesus came, He revealed the interpretations of verses in OT regarding Messiah, though the Jews had a different traditional interpretations then Jesus.



Here are some more I quote from Baha'i Scriptures:

"O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, “I go away, and come again unto you”? Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: “When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth.” And yet, behold how, when He did bring the truth, ye refused to turn your faces towards Him, and persisted in disporting yourselves with your pastimes and fancies."
Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 246-249


"Announce thou unto the priests: Lo! He Who is the Ruler is come. Step out from behind the veil in the name of thy Lord, He Who layeth low the necks of all men. Proclaim then unto all mankind the glad-tidings of this mighty, this glorious Revelation. Verily, He Who is the Spirit of Truth is come to guide you unto all truth. He speaketh not as prompted by His own self, but as bidden by Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise."
Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 246-249

John 12:31 NIV
Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.
Read John 12 | View in parallel | Compare Translations

John 14:30 NIV
I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me,
Read John 14 | View in parallel | Compare Translations

John 16:11 NIV
and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
-------------

Investigate Truth, Christian scripture seems to indicate that Lord Jesus was not inclined to be very friendly toward this person who is the "prince of this world." Surely your prophet is not associated with the "prince of this world" scripture?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

John 12:31 NIV
Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.
Read John 12 | View in parallel | Compare Translations

John 14:30 NIV
I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me,
Read John 14 | View in parallel | Compare Translations

John 16:11 NIV
and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
-------------

Investigate Truth, Christian scripture seems to indicate that Lord Jesus was not inclined to be very friendly toward this person who is the "prince of this world." Surely your prophet is not associated with the "prince of this world" scripture?

According to scriptures there is only One Ruler in the World, and that is God (1 Timothy 6:15). Every time He manifests Himself through a divine Prophet, in reality the Ruler Manifested Himself....that is the reason both Moses and the Messiah are called 'Prince or Ruler' in the Scriptures.

As regards to the term 'Prince of the world', or 'the Ruler of the world', in some verses that is Jesus, and in another verse, that is another Manifestation of God.

In verse (John 16:11) Jesus alluded to Himself as the Prince of the World that was condemned. Jesus was condemned and Judged wrongfully by people of His time:

"They all condemned him as worthy of death." Mark 14:64


The Satan or Evil is called 'Prince of the power of the air', the Christian scholars confused that with 'Prince of the World'.

 

[Ingledsva]

According to scriptures there is only One Ruler in the World, and that is God (1 Timothy 6:15). Every time He manifests Himself through a divine Prophet, in reality the Ruler Manifested Himself....that is the reason both Moses and the Messiah are called 'Prince or Ruler' in the Scriptures.

As regards to the term 'Prince of the world', or 'the Ruler of the world', in some verses that is Jesus, and in another verse, that is another Manifestation of God.

In verse (John 16:11) Jesus alluded to Himself as the Prince of the World that was condemned. Jesus was condemned and Judged wrongfully by people of His time:

"They all condemned him as worthy of death." Mark 14:64


The Satan or Evil is called 'Prince of the power of the air', the Christian scholars confused that with 'Prince of the World'.

You are correct, I've actually posted this info before, - however there is no reason to believe the "Ruler" of the World, is Baha'u'llah.


John 12:31 is about Jesus.


Joh 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Joh 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Joh 12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.


*

John 16:11 is also about Jesus.


Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Joh 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.


*


John 14:30 is not about Jesus, - and doesn’t even use the same word. No Prince. The Ruler of the world is coming.


Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the Ruler of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

I think that ending should be - and of ME needs nothing.



*

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You are correct, I've actually posted this info before, - however there is no reason to believe the "Ruler" of the World, is Baha'u'llah.

..............
John 14:30 is not about Jesus, - and doesn’t even use the same word. No Prince. The Ruler of the world is coming.


Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the Ruler of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

I have already explained this in post 197

The Greek word used in John 16:11 and John 14:30 to mean Ruler or Prince is the same.

 

[Ingledsva]

I have already explained this in post 197

The Greek word used in John 16:11 and John 14:30 to mean Ruler or Prince is the same.

I looked again at 197 - and you explained nothing - Baha'i' texts are not proof of meanings in Christian texts.


"You" might assume it is talking about your religion's leader, but obviously Christians don't have to believe that is who it means.



*

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I looked again at 197 - and you explained nothing - Baha'i' texts are not proof of meanings in Christian texts.


"You" might assume it is talking about your religion's leader, but obviously Christians don't have to believe that is who it means.



*

But as far as my discussion with 'mystic64', I think it answers his question... I showed Him there are places in NT that talks about future Manifestation of God. John 14:30 is one of them, which prophecies of a Ruler. Baha'i Scriptures claims that Baha'u'llah is the Ruler that John 14:30 speaks of. But if one wants to know if the claim of Baha'u'llah is true, they need to do an independent investigation of Truth free from bias, any love or hate. You do realize that proof of Baha'i Faith is beyond this or any thread.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Once again Jesus(pbuh) never claimed to have become Human from God.

Jesus never explicitedly claimed he was god, but his actions said otherwise, and actions speak louder than words.

John 5:18-19, the scripture clearly states that Jesus was at risk for a stoning death because he was making himself EQUAL with God. And this scripture also indicates that just by calling God his own "Father", he was making himself equal with God. Jesus would have been committing blasphemy if those implications were not true, but since he wasn't blaspheming, the implications must have been true.

You or other Christians can claim all you want, but that still doesn't hold any value unless you can show that Jesus(pbuh) made such claims.

Straw man.

Once again no clear unambiguous statements of Jesus(pbuh) say any of that. That is Paul speaking not Jesus(pbuh). If Jesus(pbuh) wanted people to worship him, there would be no confusion in telling people that 'This is my will, I am God, Worship me" and in fact that would be the right thing to do if that was True.

That is Paul speaking, not Jesus? So wait a minute; is not the bible inspired by God, and was not Paul specifically picked out by Jesus himself to begin his life as a journyman suffering man of Christ? If that is the case, would not what he write about Jesus be considered true and trustworthy?

 

[mystic64]

According to scriptures there is only One Ruler in the World, and that is God (1 Timothy 6:15). Every time He manifests Himself through a divine Prophet, in reality the Ruler Manifested Himself....that is the reason both Moses and the Messiah are called 'Prince or Ruler' in the Scriptures.

As regards to the term 'Prince of the world', or 'the Ruler of the world', in some verses that is Jesus, and in another verse, that is another Manifestation of God.

In verse (John 16:11) Jesus alluded to Himself as the Prince of the World that was condemned. Jesus was condemned and Judged wrongfully by people of His time:

"They all condemned him as worthy of death." Mark 14:64


The Satan or Evil is called 'Prince of the power of the air', the Christian scholars confused that with 'Prince of the World'.

Acts 5:31 NIV

God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.
Read Acts 5 | View in parallel | Compare Translations

John 14:31

From the Greek translation that I am using: "NOT" "Still" "much" "I-SHALL-BE-TALKING" "WITH" "YOU(p)" "IS-COMING" "for" "THE" "OF-THE" "SYSTEM" "this" "chief" "AND" "IN" "ME" "NOT" "it_is_having" "NOT-YET-ONE"

It translates "SYSYEM" into "world" and "NOT_YET_ONE" into "anything".

And it concludeds with this translation: Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of the world cometh, and has nothing in me.

Ephesians 2:2 talks of the "prince of the power of air" incouraging stubbornness, ok . Discussing scripture is like arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, I can see why Atheists just say to heck with it and get on with their lives .

Investigate Truth, to me this discussion is interesting and I am learning things (which was requested that I do by Lover of Truth back in the begining of this topic) and thank you guys for your patience.

What we have here is Jesus being exlted to the rank of prince (Acts 2:2); Jesus leaving because a prince is coming that has nothing to do with Him; and a prince that is encouraging stubborness. Humm? and generally speaking Lord Jesus is not considered to be the ruler of this world until He returns. And the last time He was here He clamed that He did not come to bring peace or to be a ruler/king, but to cause conflict which He successfully did. Technically He would be the Lord and Savior of those of us that are His followers but not the Messiah that was foretold in the Old Testament Prophecy until He returns and becomes the Ruler/King of the Earth, apparently for one thousand years.

At this point in time Lord Jesus is not the ruler of this world unless one considers Him an incarnation of God because God is suppose to be the ruler of everything. And even then He can't actively be the ruler or King of this world/system at this point in time because He has left and has not come back yet.

Invesitage Truth, your prophet can not be Lord Jesus' replacement because Lord Jesus is still coming back. The best that your prophet can be is a gift from God to help mankind into the days of Lord Jesus' return.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Once again some mumbo jumbo ('hold knowledge') that Jesus(pbuh) never claimed. Either you have knowledge or you don't. Otherwise, his entire life was pretending to be someone he was not - doesn't sound like a sign of anything divine. It is sad how far Paul has taken the teachings of Jesus(pbuh) and what people believe even after seeing the clear contradictions with their own eyes.

He wasn't pretending. Jesus came on earth as "God" undercover. Jesus said if you seen him, then you seen the Father (John 14:5-14). So if we see Jesus when we see the Father, then vice versa; if we see the Father, we see Jesus. Think about it; no other Prophet or holy man has ever made such claims, so why would Jesus be any different than these men? On what grounds did he base that claim on?

Jesus called John the Baptist the "greatest man born of a woman" (Matt 11:11). Now, if he called John the greatest man born of a woman, and yet John the Baptist himself said that he isn't even worthy to untie the sandals of Jesus (John 1:26-27), then what does that say about Jesus???

So ? And imagine if Jesus(pbuh) comes back today and you call him Jesus(pbuh)...he won't even look back ... cause that wasn't even his name.

Jesus...Immanuel...Christ...Messiah...Lord...Teacher...Rabbi...God (John 20:28): Take your pick because according to the scriptures, all apply.

Sure, we also believe that God's WORD proceeded to Mary(pbuh) and that's how Jesus(pbuh) was born and so is everything else is created with God's word as well. So it remains that Jesus(pbuh) was Created and he was certainly not the Creator.

Well, I guess I would have to say in the same sense you feel that if Jesus was God, he should have "claimed" it explicitedly throughout scripture, I would expect, if Jesus was created by God, to see some kind of biblical mention of it in the scriptures. I see absolutely none. No hint. There is mention of the universe, man, animals, earth, water...all mentions of these creations, but no mention of the creation of the Savior of mankind?? Hmmm.

What it means is that 'bowing down' could be a sign of respect and not Worship.

Of course, when the word is in reference to Jesus, render it respect...but when it is in reference to the Father, render it as worship. That is the name of the game, right?

If Jesus(pbuh) was less in position, he is not God. Once again you are giving me some statements of Paul not Jesus(pbuh).

Yeah, because I am presupposing the bible to be the inspired Word of the Living God, so based on that presupposition, I expect the words in it to be true and trustworthy.

But he also said Father is Greater and of course that concept would be true for any Messenger/Prophet of God. God gives the Prophets the authority and people have to follow/obey them. They are the true means to God. That doesn't make them God.

Yeah, he said the Father is Greater only after he "lowered" himself, as Phil 2:5-9 indicates. Every scripture you give at which Jesus places himself as the subordinate to the Father is only because he lowered himself of his position...that is why when you examine Phil 2:5-9 closely, you see what Jesus "became", and what he "became" had to be different than what he was before he "became"...so what was he before he "became"???

And the good thing about it is, there isn't much wiggle room...because if a servant is what he "became", then what was he before he "became" a servant? He couldn't have been a servant before he became a servant, otherwise, he WOULDN'T HAVE TO "BECOME" ONE. Hmm.

Once again the same concept is true for any Prophet. Even the Qur'an says something similar :
"Say, [O Muhammad], "If you should love Allah , then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." (Al Qur'an 3:31)


So the bottom line is that Not only that Jesus(pbuh) never stated in any unambiguous way that He(Jesus) was God rather Jesus(pbuh) stated in clear and unambiguous way that there is only One God and that's not Jesus :

Mark 12 NIV - The Parable of the Tenants - Jesus then - Bible Gateway
Under the section titled 'The Greatest Commandment'
28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e]
....
32 “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.
....
34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.”

So Even Jesus(pbuh) thought that God is One really means God is One and the person who believes in that, is close to the kingdom of God.
This is exactly the same and first commandment of Islam : There is no god but God.

And yet again, in Clear, Unequivocal and Unambiguous statements in the Bible saying 'There is no god but One God'.
"We know that 'An idol is nothing at all in the world' and that 'There is no God but one.' 1 Corinthians 8:4.

And yet again :
"And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." Mark 10:17, KJV

Which makes it even clearer that Jesus is referring to the One and Only God(and not himself) as good.

Peace.

Right, so this goes back to my point in the other post, and I will illustrate what I think the above scriptures mean by giving an analogy: For example...if me and you are friends, does this mean that me and your brother are friends? Or if me and your brother are friends, does this mean that me and you are friends? It doesn't, does it?

But again, Jesus said if you seen the Father, you've seen him...and love Jesus, you love the Father, and if you love the Father, you love Jesus. It is a package deal, you can't have one without the other. The above scriptures entail that God is one, but the unity of the Son and the Father/Holy Spirit are so close that they are 3 in 1...there is only one God, and that God consist of three persons...the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

They are inseparable..you can't believe in the Father but reject the Son...and you can't believe in the Son and reject the Father. It is a package deal. That is why I emphasis on who Jesus really is....if he was just a created being just like any one of the other created beings that God created (angels or humans)....and if other Prophets lived holy lives just as Jesus did...then theoretically speaking, it would have been possible for any other those other Prophets to be used interchangably with Jesus...so why couldn't the salvaton of mankind have been through any other great Prophet?? Could it have?? Could any other of the Prophets death have been sufficient for the sins of mankind? Why or why not? I don't think so.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

And the last time He was here He clamed that He did not come to bring peace or to be a ruler/king, but to cause conflict which He successfully did. Technically He would be the Lord and Savior of those of us that are His followers but not the Messiah that was foretold in the Old Testament Prophecy until He returns and becomes the Ruler/King of the Earth, apparently for one thousand years.

In Hebrew Scriptures, there are prophecies regarding two Persons. One is called the Messiah, the other one is called 'the everlasting father, the prince of peace'.
Jesus is the Messiah, Baha'u'llah is the Father, the Prince of Peace. We notice that New Testament never calls Jesus, the Prince of peace or the Father. He is called the Son. But Baha'i Scriptures refers to Baha'u'llah as the Father, Prince of the peace. My suggestion is to use the Scriptures as is, to see where it takes us.
The missions of Manifestations of God is progressive. The Peace and Unity has been a progressive and gradual process to be established, step by step. The older Manifestations such as Jesus and Moses, had a Mission to unite the tribes, sects or cities, that was first steps, but the Mission of Baha'u'llah is to unite the whole earth, by bringing teachings that gradually transforms the earth into another earth, 'regardless if everyone becomes a Baha'i or Not'. That was the next step....

At this point in time Lord Jesus is not the ruler of this world unless one considers Him an incarnation of God because God is suppose to be the ruler of everything. And even then He can't actively be the ruler or King of this world/system at this point in time because He has left and has not come back yet.

Here is an analogy is used to explain the station of Manifestations of God:
If God is the Sun (See Psalm 84:11), a Manifestation of God is Like a clean Mirror facing the Sun of Reality (See References). If we place a Mirror facing the Sun, What do you see in the Mirror? you see the Sun. and if tomorrow you place another Mirror facing the Sun, what do you see in the Mirror? You see the Sun again. Now, one Mirror was Jesus, and another Mirror was Baha'u'llah. Therefore since both showed the same image of the Sun (God), in reality they are the same, and one is considered the return of the other one. Also, when the Sun appears in the Mirror, it does not move from Heaven into Mirror, but only it manifests itself in Mirrors, rather than incarnation, hence scriptures call Jesus, 'image of God', instead of incarnation.
Therefore when God, the Ruler Manifested Himself, in Moses, who was the Ruler? That's right, it was Moses who was the Ruler (See Acts 7:35)

Jesus leaving because a prince is coming that has nothing to do with Him; and a prince that is encouraging stubborness. Humm?

You understood well so far what I posted, but except for a couple of things. One is that the verse does not say 'has nothing to do with Me', but it say 'has nothing in Me'. You know Christ said I am 'in' the Father, and my disciples are 'in' Me? That means the Glory that is manifested 'in' Me, is in my Father, and the glory that is Manifested 'in' my Disciples is from Me. But the Next Manifestation of God is independent of Glory of Christ. He has His own glory independent of Christ.
The other is that the Prince or Ruler of this World is a different being than Prince of the power of the air (who is possibly reference to Satan).

Now, Let's concentrate on Prince or Ruler of the World. In the Scriptures God is like the Sun, and coming of a Manifestation of God is like the Sun that appears in the Morning to give light of knowledge. If the Sun does not leave today, the next day Sun does not come. That is what the Jesus said basically. I the Sun came, and have given my light today, and I have completed my mission today, Now I must leave so, the night comes (see John 9:4-5), then tomorrow the Sun comes again and He gives you the Light of knowledge again. I have nothing more to say, because the Ruler (The Sun) comes tomorrow.

and generally speaking Lord Jesus is not considered to be the ruler of this world until He returns.

I don't know why you say that? Doesn't the Scriptures call Jesus the Ruler or Prince? My suggestion is let's go just by what the Scriptures say, to see where it takes you.

Invesitage Truth, your prophet can not be Lord Jesus' replacement because Lord Jesus is still coming back. The best that your prophet can be is a gift from God to help mankind into the days of Lord Jesus' return.

With explanation of the Analogy of Mirrors above, He is the return of Christ.

"He, verily, hath again come down from heaven, even as He came down from it the first time."
Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 9-17

 

[Smart_Guy]

I'm glad I'm Muslim. No such confusions of who I worship

Islam defines God as the only supreme one, that was not born or had offspring.

 

[mystic64]

I'm glad I'm Muslim. No such confusions of who I worship

Islam defines God as the only supreme one, that was not born or had offspring.

Hi Smart-Guy and welcome to this topic. There is a lot to be said for the advantages of the Islamic faith .

 

[mystic64]

Invesigate Truth, I do understand what you are saying and the logic behind what you are saying. But, the logic reality that you are creating is only valid if Lord Jesus does not "physically" return. Those of the Christian faith and those of the Islamic faith are waiting for the "physical" return of Lord/Prophet Jesus and those of the Jewish faith are waiting for the Messiah to come. He may be Jesus and He may not be. Now Investigae Truth correct me if I am wrong, you are maintaining that Lord/Prophet Jesus is not returning "physically" as Lord/Prophet Jesus and that He was the reflection of the Light of God for only the time that He was "physical" present on the Earth and that He will be periodically replaced by new fellows that reflect the Light of God so that the message of the Light of God can stay current with the times that mankind is living in. And that the prophet that you follow was the last or most current of these fellows with the message of the Light of God to fit the times.

Ok, with that said, Matthew 11:27 says that, "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son, except the the Father; nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to revel Him." So what you are saying Investigate Truth is that the Father (God) has taken back the "all things" and was personally handling things as your prophet before your prophet passed on? And that we are all now waiting for the Father to do this again through another person, now that your prophet is gone, to keep the message of God current with the times? I say this because the prophet that started your faith (as a belief in progressive revelation manifesting itself) that lived just before your prophet passed on and was replaced by your prophet.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Invesigate Truth, I do understand what you are saying and the logic behind what you are saying. But, the logic reality that you are creating is only valid if Lord Jesus does not "physically" return. Those of the Christian faith and those of the Islamic faith are waiting for the "physical" return of Lord/Prophet Jesus and those of the Jewish faith are waiting for the Messiah to come. He may be Jesus and He may not be. Now Investigae Truth correct me if I am wrong, you are maintaining that Lord/Prophet Jesus is not returning "physically" as Lord/Prophet Jesus and that He was the reflection of the Light of God for only the time that He was "physical" present on the Earth and that He will be periodically replaced by new fellows that reflect the Light of God so that the message of the Light of God can stay current with the times that mankind is living in. And that the prophet that you follow was the last or most current of these fellows with the message of the Light of God to fit the times.

Yes, you understood the concept well. Of course the Soul of Christ after His ascension, continued to live forever, and His Soul shall always be the Manifestation of God, and the Mirror of His attributes in the Worlds of God which their numbers are infinite. But, since revealing the Will of God in this world on earth, requires a Person be manifested from time to time that can sit and talk with people, therefore a New Person is required in every Age.
The logic of this as you said, depends on if Christ does not return physically. More specifically that depends on if Christ meant He returns physically.
Though that would be quite a whole different topic, we know that according to Christ, John the Baptist was return of Elijah. Moreover Jesus is considered to be a new Moses in Christian Theology according to Bible and we maintain that, He meant the same for His own return, all alluded in symbolic language figuratively, since the coming of a Manifestation of God is a Mystery of God, and recognizing Him is a Test. Moreover this concept of return is not only confined to Christian Scriptures. For example Buddha said that I am not the first Buddha, neither the Last one, but in due time another Buddha comes. Krishna similarly said, He comes from Age to Age to reestablish religion of God. Likewise Muhammad said I am All the Prophets. Therefore in a spiritual sense, each Divine Prophet is the return of All other Prophets.

Ok, with that said, Matthew 11:27 says that, "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son, except the the Father; nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to revel Him." So what you are saying Investigate Truth is that the Father (God) has taken back the "all things" and was personally handling things as your prophet before your prophet passed on?

Each of the divine Prophets had revealed God to their people, and therefore if each one of them say, 'No one knows God accept through Me', that is True, for no one has direct access to the knowledge of God, therefore through these Mirrors, the Will of God is revealed for a period of time. For example it is recorded in Hebrew Scriptures that God told Moses such words: "Whenever I want to say something to people, I say to you, and you tell them, and whenever people want to say something to Me, they say it to you, and you tell Me", that is to say, God made Moses an 'intermediate' between Himself and people. The concept of Mirror can explain this, if we consider Moses a Mirror that God was Manifested in Him, people were talking to God through this Mirror and God spoke to them through this Mirror, and interestingly, it is written, God made Moses a god to Aaron and to Pharaoh.

And that we are all now waiting for the Father to do this again through another person, now that your prophet is gone, to keep the message of God current with the times? I say this because the prophet that started your faith (as a belief in progressive revelation manifesting itself) that lived just before your prophet passed on and was replaced by your prophet.

Every time God Manifests Himself, He reveals a New Law that is to be uphold until the next Manifestation of God. When He Manifests Himself again, He may abrogate some of the Laws of the previous revelation, and brings New Laws to suit the exigencies. Baha'u'llah appeared about 160 years ago, and He said that the next Manifestation of God shall not come before 1000 years. Therefore His Laws are considered to be suitable until the next Manifestation.

 

[mystic64]

John 10:14-18 (NIV)
14"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me--15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep.16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it up again.18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

Investigate Truth, the above scripture would seem to indicate that Jesus has a flock of folks that are His own sheep and that they will know His voice and follow only Him as their shepherd. And that Jesus has the athority to lay down His life and the authority to take it up again. Which the Christian faith claims that he did.

Investigate Truth, "I know my sheep and My sheep know Me.", would seem to indicate that there are those that are not the sheep of Jesus, and that these sheep that are not the sheep of Jesus do not know Jesus as their shepherd and that He does not know them, as His sheep. It would appear to me that your prophet is a gift from God to those that are not from the flock of sheep that are shepherded by Lord Jesus because they do not know Lord Jesus or abide in Him.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

John 10:14-18 (NIV)
14"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me--15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep.16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it up again.18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

Investigate Truth, the above scripture would seem to indicate that Jesus has a flock of folks that are His own sheep and that they will know His voice and follow only Him as their shepherd. And that Jesus has the athority to lay down His life and the authority to take it up again. Which the Christian faith claims that he did.

Investigate Truth, "I know my sheep and My sheep know Me.", would seem to indicate that there are those that are not the sheep of Jesus, and that these sheep that are not the sheep of Jesus do not know Jesus as their shepherd and that He does not know them, as His sheep. It would appear to me that your prophet is a gift from God to those that are not from the flock of sheep that are shepherded by Lord Jesus because they do not know Lord Jesus or abide in Him.

The statement "I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. " is a reference to the second coming of Christ. "other sheep" are Baha'is. While 'This Sheep' was a reference to Christians.
That was the prophecy when Christ returns, He brings another ship.

 

[mystic64]

The statement "I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. " is a reference to the second coming of Christ. "other sheep" are Baha'is. While 'This Sheep' was a reference to Christians.
That was the prophecy when Christ returns, He brings another ship.

Ok Investigate Truth, I do not disagree with what you have said. Does that mean that the Baha'i are also waiting for the return of Lord Jesus? And does that mean that they do not expect His return for one thousand years?

Also about keeping information current, those that are of the present flock of sheep that Lord Jesus is the Shepherd of have a Holy Spirit (no physical body involved) that teaches and guides them and keeps them current on the instant. Not updated every one thousand years. The reason that I do not pass judgement on those of other faiths is because I feel that a path toward God should be available to all humankind that wishes to be on a path toward God no matter whether they are of the flock of Lord Jesus or not. And that all faiths that teach "love", as far as I am concerened, are a gift to humankind from the profoundly powerful force that most call God. And these faiths a gift of His love for Humankind.

A lot of Christians both in the past and in the present tell others that these others are going to go to Hell if these others do not believe as these Christians do. This is absolutely not true . The message of Lord Jesus is "love and forgiveness" and His message does not give anyone the licence to judge or condem anyone else in a Divine judgement sense. No, Nada, La, Neit!