Allah is not God (Islams)

[Murf661]

Wow...I love you...

 

[Darkdale]

Anyone who is even half way familiar with what's in the Qur'an can see that Muslims worship the same God as Jews and Christians. Jeez Louise, the Jewish prophets and Jesus are mentioned throughout the text. I was just on another thread in the Islam forum talking about Moses in the Qur'an.

Just because the religions share a similar tribal and theological heritage doesn't mean that they are the same God. Allah and Jehovah are different gods, according to many. It's simply a matter of opinion. There is no fact or proof with regard to this question.

 

[JerryL]

Just because the religions share a similar tribal and theological heritage doesn't mean that they are the same God. Allah and Jehovah are different gods, according to many. It's simply a matter of opinion. There is no fact or proof with regard to this question.

Jehovia-Allah is the same God in that all versions of Zeus-Jupiter are the same God. He is the same because he is believe to be the same.

He is also different. He is different in the pre-prophetic era and the post prophetic era and in the time of Peter's stewardship of the Christian church, and then Paul's, and then Mohammed's creation of Islam. His charicteristics change.

 

[Darkdale]

Jehovia-Allah is the same God in that all versions of Zeus-Jupiter are the same God. He is the same because he is believe to be the same.

He is also different. He is different in the pre-prophetic era and the post prophetic era and in the time of Peter's stewardship of the Christian church, and then Paul's, and then Mohammed's creation of Islam. His charicteristics change.

Right, but not everyone believes they are the same. Therefore it is a matter of opinion and not a truth. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying people don't have a right to believe that they are the same god, I'm just saying that it is a matter of opinion and not something anyone can claim they are certain is true.

 

[Popeyesays]

Did he teach that God's justice was served at the cross on behalf of those who whould truly follow him? That this was Gods way of having his justice served yet not condeming sinners to hell? Christ made atonement for sinners who would repent and turn to God, is this somthing the muslim god did? What of the prophecies etc from the old testament, like the one i posted earlier?.

Actually, YES, Muhammed taught that Jesus would come again to judge men on Judgement Day - Muhammed included. That indeed is a measure of God's Justice is it not?

Actually no, different languages, different words, but same thing - and you know why because of that which identifies each thing as a dog or cat etc.
There are attributes and actions that define who God is and what the God in the bible has done.
Like i mentioned earlier, the God of the bible made atonment for sinners on the cross - if the muslim god didnt then they are not the same! Its really not difficult, if this was any other issue there would not even be a disscussion.
If i said i saw your car today and then said it was red and had 6 wheels and you said to me no you couldnt have, its blue and has 3 wheels, then obviously one of us is wrong.
Yet many of you seem to be saying no, your both right, you both worship the same God but this makes no sense.

I worship God who sent his son and who died on a Cross to pay for my sins, if this isnt the God you worship then we dont worship the same God.

Even some Christians accept "Son of God" as a title not a matter of sperm and egg.
God has gender? Ridiculous. God has sperm? Ridiculous. God Has WILL and He willed Jesus to be from Mary and He was. This is what the Bible says and this is what the Qur'an says. God willed Adam to be from nothing, did He not? If that is so, then Adam must be even greater than Jesus since Adam had neither father nor mother.
THis is your whole argument about sonship taken to its ultimate end. It is an absurd end, of course; but that's where your argument leads.

The sum of Jesus status as the "Son of God" is that He was a Perfect Mirror to reflect the Reality of God. Man cannot behold the Reality of God any other way, than to look in a mirror. The perfection of the mirror is the important thing. Jesus' life was far more important than His death, and His death did indeed acheive a means to salvation for all mankind.

This i strongly disagree with also, the God of the bible strongly condemns idolatary - God wrote in stone "you shall have no other Gods befor me".

From the Qur'an:
"'Cattle are lawful for you, except what is recited to you; and avoid the abomination of idols, and avoid speaking falsely, being 'Hanifs to God, not associating aught with Him; for he who associates aught with God, it is as though he had fallen from heaven, and the birds snatch him up, or the wind blows him away into a far distant place."
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 22 - The Pilgrimage)

the bible speaking of Christ states-

Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved Acts 4:12



Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. john 3:18


​

yet muslims would claim God has no son, either he does or he dosnt, they are either right or they are wrong - Christians and Muslims cannot both be right though.

Muhammed says Jesus was from God, balking only at the idea of God having "seed" to impregnate Mary.

"And mention, in the Book, Mary; when she retired from her family into an eastern place; and she took a veil (to screen herself) from them; and we sent unto her our spirit; and he took for her the semblance of a well-made man. Said she, 'Verily, I take refuge in the Merciful One from thee, if thou art pious.' Said he, 'I am only a messenger of thy Lord to bestow on thee a pure boy.' Said she, 'How can I have a boy when no man has touched me, and when I am no harlot?' He said, 'Thus says thy Lord, It is easy for Me! and we will make him a sign unto man, and a mercy from us; for it is a decided matter.'
So she conceived him, and she retired with him into a remote place."
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 19 - Mary)


Do you believe God impregnated Mary with His own semen and sperm?
Muhammed says God told Mary He WILLED her to bear a son. Do you think that God produced Jesus by His WILL or by His sperm?

If you think He was the product of the WILL of God, then you agree with the Qur'an. You can't have it both ways.

Regards,
Scott

 

[lilithu]

Just because the religions share a similar tribal and theological heritage doesn't mean that they are the same God. Allah and Jehovah are different gods, according to many. It's simply a matter of opinion. There is no fact or proof with regard to this question.

Darkdale, there is plenty of "proof" with regards to this subject. There is scriptural proof. There is socialogical proof. There is historical proof. Allah and God are the same. People can argue that the "other side" got certain key facts wrong, but Allah and God are the same. No one has yet to explain to me how people who believe that there is only ONE God can believe that others are worshipping a different God. Some may be worshipping the same God "incorrectly," but how can they be worshipping a different God if all parties involved say that there is only ONE God?

And as I told FIAA, there are plenty of Christians who believe that Mormons are not Christian (as there are Christians who believe that Catholics aren't Christian). Are we just going to leave it up to popular opinion then as to who is Christian and who is not? Should the LDS forum get moved out of the Christian forums just because some people are bigoted? Should the Islam forum get moved out of the Abrhamic traditions forums just because some people are bigoted?

Look, I normally don't care when people argue about silly things like this - is God trinity or is God unity?, are there many gods or just one god?, is there a god(s) or no god?. They're all valid to me. The only time I do care is when hatred is involved, when the primary reason why someone is making a distinction is because they want to denigrate another group. It offends my soul. I get mad when atheists say theists are stupid, or that religion is the cause of all harm in this world. I get mad when theists say that atheists are immoral or have no purpose in life. And I'm mad here, because given ALL of the similarities between Allah and the Christian God, the ONLY motivation for saying that Muslims and Christians worship different Gods is to say that one group is wrong - not just factually wrong but deeply morally wrong, that they have been duped by the Devil into committing and perpetuating evil. (Did you not see FIAA claim earlier in this thread that Muslims are devil worshippers?) This is not a benign difference of opinion. This is the kind of thing that justifies wars.

You can believe whatever you want to believe in my eyes, until you start attacking other people, and this "belief" that Allah and God are not the same is an attack against Muslims.

 

[Darkdale]

You can believe whatever you want to believe in my eyes, until you start attacking other people, and this "belief" that Allah and God are not the same is an attack against Muslims.

No it is not. Again, I don't really care what people think with regard to these gods, so this isn't personal. Can you show me proof that these are the same gods? You say there is tons of proof. You can't. First, you'd have to prove that the Jewish God exists and then go on to prove that the Christians are still worshipping that God and that Jesus and that God are one, which the Jews will disagree with. Then you will have to prove that Allah is the same as the Christian God, when it isn't even clear that the Christian god and the Jewish God are the same God at all. New Testament and Old Testament scripture are as different from each other as they are from the koran, and the personalities of these gods seem to differ as well. It is easy to believe that all these religions are really worshipping different gods. Do their concepts have a lot in common? Sure they do... Even the estranged god of the deist is similar to the god concepts of the old middle eastern cultures.

I just think it is ridiculous to claim that it is "True" that all these people are worshipping the same god. Why not state it as an opinion and move on?

 

[Popeyesays]

No it is not. Again, I don't really care what people think with regard to these gods, so this isn't personal. Can you show me proof that these are the same gods? You say there is tons of proof. You can't. First, you'd have to prove that the Jewish God exists and then go on to prove that the Christians are still worshipping that God and that Jesus and that God are one, which the Jews will disagree with. Then you will have to prove that Allah is the same as the Christian God, when it isn't even clear that the Christian god and the Jewish God are the same God at all. New Testament and Old Testament scripture are as different from each other as they are from the koran, and the personalities of these gods seem to differ as well. It is easy to believe that all these religions are really worshipping different gods. Do their concepts have a lot in common? Sure they do... Even the estranged god of the deist is similar to the god concepts of the old middle eastern cultures.

I just think it is ridiculous to claim that it is "True" that all these people are worshipping the same god. Why not state it as an opinion and move on?

I get a kick out of aggressive atheists.
They state as a fact that God does not exist and then beg for those who believe to PROVE God exists.

You can't PROVE either statement.

Why? Because God does it that way to make a person choose. Why does one expect to find the painter in the portrait, or the sculptor in the statue, or the weaver in the fabric, or God in Creation?

Regards,
Scott

 

[FFH]

Just because the religions share a similar tribal and theological heritage doesn't mean that they are the same God. Allah and Jehovah are different gods, according to many. It's simply a matter of opinion. There is no fact or proof with regard to this question.

Amen Amen Amen and Amen

Darkdale you are a very wise man. Wiser than us all. I think this statement sums up all our thoughts without offending Islam or any religion. I sense greatness in you. I need to read more of your posts in other threads. Many frubals to you.

Truely it is a matter of opinion and there is no fact or proof as to whom is behind any God of any religion. It is a matter of faith. We can only hope and believe that our God of our religion is the right one.

I am sure many religions share the same God like the many that beleive in the bible, including Jews, but I believe that if a religion is not based on the Bible then they are serving a different God, however similar He may be.

 

[Darkdale]

I get a kick out of aggressive atheists.
They state as a fact that God does not exist and then beg for those who believe to PROVE God exists.

You can't PROVE either statement.

Just to clarify, I'm not an atheists. And I don't believe anyone can prove that "god" exists.

Why? Because God does it that way to make a person choose. Why does one expect to find the painter in the portrait, or the sculptor in the statue, or the weaver in the fabric, or God in Creation?

Regards,
Scott

Ahh.... but what if you do not believe in "creation". What you believe that nature, existence, the universe is eternal? It may require some faith, but no more than to believe in an eternal god. Right?

It seems to me, to be prudent, to speak of gods in manner respectful to the opinions of others and to state that the Christian, Jewish and Muslim god is all the same god as a fact is disrespectful to those who do not believe that this is so.

 

[lilithu]

No it is not. Again, I don't really care what people think with regard to these gods, so this isn't personal. Can you show me proof that these are the same gods? You say there is tons of proof. You can't. First, you'd have to prove that the Jewish God exists

No, I don't. All I have to do is prove that the concept of the Jewish God exists, and then show how that concept is related to the concepts of the Christian God and Allah. I could be a complete atheist and I would still be arguing this same position. Even if there is no God, even if all people are doing is worshipping ideas made up by other people, the Jews worship the same concept as the Christians as the Muslims. Yes, there are real differences. But there were real differences between Chinese communism and Soviet communism; to claim then that they were completely different is ludicrous.

I just think it is ridiculous to claim that it is "True" that all these people are worshipping the same god. Why not state it as an opinion and move on?

I already told you why: because there is no reason to say that these are different Gods other than to justify hatred.

addendum: I think I should make it clear that I wasn't talking above about you, Darkdale. As a non-believer when it comes to the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God, I'm sure that you can discuss whether or not this is the same God as just an intellectual curiosity. What I'm saying is that when a Christian or a Muslim or a Jew says that the other groups worship a different God, it's not a matter of intellectual curiosity. There is something personally at stake, and what they are saying is that the other group is morally wrong. That their God is against those other people.

 

[FFH]

I am not saying that Muslims are Devil worshippers. I was merely pointing out that maybe there was someone other than God that was behind the writings of the Quran. Allah maybe another entity other than God. We cannot prove or say who is behind Allah in the Islamic religion as Darkdale has stated. I was wrong in saying that I know that Satan is behind the Quuran or Allah because I don't know. I just don't want to take any chances by believing in a book that never states that Jesus is our Messiah. Even the Old Testament points to a Messiah that is to come.

Can the Quran state that Jesus Christ is the Messiah to all the world and not just a prophet or a good teacher or a great man. Why would God rewrite the Bible in a different form and leave Jesus Christ as our Savior out of the Quran.... Jesus is not just a good man or a prophet but is a Savior to all those that believe in him and turn from sin. The Jews did not rewrite the New Testament. They stuck with the Old Testament because they did not believe the Messiah had come to earth yet. Some day in the future they will see the Messiah that they had wounded and believe in him also.

Jesus was not just a prophet as the Quran says. This is in direct conflict to what God has to say in the matter. It is the God of the Bible that saves all mankind from sin through Jesus Christ. If you leave this out or then there is another God behind it all. The God of the Bible would not rewrite scripture and leave this MOST IMPORTANT POINT out. Only man would do this not God.

 

[Darkdale]

No, I don't. All I have to do is prove that the concept of the Jewish God exists, and then show how that concept is related to the concepts of the Christian God and Allah. I could be a complete atheist and I would still be arguing this same position. Even if there is no God, even if all people are doing is worshipping ideas made up by other people, the Jews worship the same concept as the Christians as the Muslims. Yes, there are real differences. But there were real differences between Chinese communism and Soviet communism; to claim then that they were completely different is ludicrous.

When it comes to gods, who are you to say that they are the same god, when others do not believe it to be so. Similar yes... but the same? Prove it. Historically related, yes... but the same? Prove it.

I already told you why: because there is no reason to say that these are different Gods other than to justify hatred.

That's a rather pretentious position to take don't you think? There are people who believe that all gods are the same God and I personally take offense to that belief. I believe that my gods are true in an of themselves. I do not push my gods on anyone else. What is wrong with people who believe that they don't worship Allah, but still worship the Christian god? It's only your presumptuous opinion that it is out of hatred and I think that is FAR from the truth; and if I was a Christian that held such a belief, I'd be terribly annoyed at your implicit accusations of bigotry.

 

[lilithu]

I am not saying that Muslims are Devil worshippers. I was merely pointing out that maybe there was someone other than God that was behind the writings of the Quran. Allah maybe another entity other than God.

OK, so now we have God, the Devil, and Allah. How many other "entities" are out there? Are you sure that you're a monotheist?

 

[FFH]

There are many entities or spirits like Lucifer that have chosen not to come to earth and obtain bodies like we have.

In the Pre-existence or Pre-mortal life we all chose to come to earth and obtain bodies. Lucifer and all who followed him in this same Pre-existence or Pre-mortal life did not choose to come to earth and obtain bodies of flesh and blood. Truely Lucifer was our brother. Lucifer was also a son of God and chose not to follow the plan of God and come to earth and obtain a body. Lucifer convinced many to to the same. A third of the spirits in heaven chose not to come to earth and follow Gods plan. Lucifer and all of his followers are trying there hardest to deceive the billions of people on earth right now in whatever form he can. Movies, music, religion (confusing truths and giving half truths. He is the "father of all lies" Book of Mormon 2 Nephi 2:18

I have seen one of these entities or spirits, that followed Lucifer in the Pre-existence, myself, with my own eyes. He was a man like you and me, only without a body, and he came out of a woman I was dating and tried to grab me and control me..... It was very real and I will never forget it. A spirit who looked like a man but had no flesh and blood. There must be millions and maybe billions of these spirits or entities who would like posses our bodies and who do posses bodies of people on earth (Only those who let them). They may dictate to men what to do and say, if the man or woman they posses allows it.

I believe that one of these spirits dictated to a man to write the Quran to decieve many millions of men. I believe that men can and do eceive personal revelation from God, Lucifer or one of these other spirits that I have previously discussed. Can we not all have an original thought also????? I believe that all religions are the result of either revelation from God, Lucifer, one of these spirits (people who chose not to come to earth and obtain a body), or from an original thought of a man on earth.

 

[painted wolf]

big accusation... how do you know that the BoM wasn't so inspired by one of these pre-existance baddies?

be careful with the insults you launch at other faiths 'inerrancy" no faith is without its own problems in that regard.

wa:do

 

[Popeyesays]

Ahh.... but what if you do not believe in "creation". What you believe that nature, existence, the universe is eternal? It may require some faith, but no more than to believe in an eternal god. Right?

It seems to me, to be prudent, to speak of gods in manner respectful to the opinions of others and to state that the Christian, Jewish and Muslim god is all the same god as a fact is disrespectful to those who do not believe that this is so.

I think the eternal nature of God is different from the nature of the universe. Until Creation came to be, there was no time.

I agree that a person with manners and respect for others would never suggest that another's belief is diabolical or FALSE. I also note that Malus did just that and you support him completely.

Regards,
Scott

 

[FFH]

When it comes to gods, who are you to say that they are the same god, when others do not believe it to be so. Similar yes... but the same? Prove it. Historically related, yes... but the same? Prove it.



That's a rather pretentious position to take don't you think? There are people who believe that all gods are the same God and I personally take offense to that belief. I believe that my gods are true in an of themselves. I do not push my gods on anyone else. What is wrong with people who believe that they don't worship Allah, but still worship the Christian god? It's only your presumptuous opinion that it is out of hatred and I think that is FAR from the truth; and if I was a Christian that held such a belief, I'd be terribly annoyed at your implicit accusations of bigotry.

Wow I am amazed at your writings Darkdale. You are very wise. These statements are so accurate and to the point.

 

[Popeyesays]

I am not saying that Muslims are Devil worshippers. I was merely pointing out that maybe there was someone other than God that was behind the writings of the Quran. Allah maybe another entity other than God. We cannot prove or say who is behind Allah in the Islamic religion as Darkdale has stated. I was wrong in saying that I know that Satan is behind the Quuran or Allah because I don't know. I just don't want to take any chances by believing in a book that never states that Jesus is our Messiah. Even the Old Testament points to a Messiah that is to come.

Can the Quran state that Jesus Christ is the Messiah to all the world and not just a prophet or a good teacher or a great man. Why would God rewrite the Bible in a different form and leave Jesus Christ as our Savior out of the Quran.... Jesus is not just a good man or a prophet but is a Savior to all those that believe in him and turn from sin. The Jews did not rewrite the New Testament. They stuck with the Old Testament because they did not believe the Messiah had come to earth yet. Some day in the future they will see the Messiah that they had wounded and believe in him also.

Jesus was not just a prophet as the Quran says. This is in direct conflict to what God has to say in the matter. It is the God of the Bible that saves all mankind from sin through Jesus Christ. If you leave this out or then there is another God behind it all. The God of the Bible would not rewrite scripture and leave this MOST IMPORTANT POINT out. Only man would do this not God.

"12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
12:34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.
12th chapter of the Gospel of Mark, KJV

Jesus says there is one God and it is the God of Abraham. Muhammed says it is one God and the God of Abraham. QED.

Regards,
Scott

 

[TashaN]

I'll admit that I don't know a ton about Islam, but here's what I do know:

Muslims worship the same god as the Jews and the Father of the Christian Trinity.
Allah, which is a contraction of al-ilah, means The God. You got that one right.
Al Qaeda are just a bunch of ******** twisting Islam to use it as a tool for political gain.

:clap