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Abortion: Are you pro-life or pro-choice?

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by Saw11_2000, Feb 18, 2005.

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  1. A woman should be allowed to get an abortion at any time for any reason.

    27.4%
  2. Abortions should be allowed, but it should not be used as birth control.

    32.7%
  3. Abortion should be allowed, but only for extreme situations, such as rape.

    16.8%
  4. Abortions should be 100% illegal. Period.

    23.0%
  1. maggie2

    maggie2 Active Member

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    I'm another one of those people who are very torn about this issue. I know that I could not have an abortion myself but I don't think I have the right to tell other people what to do. I have a daughter who was pregnant out of wedlock and I know that if she had decided she wanted an abortion I would have asked her to have the baby and I would have taken care of it. Fortunately, she decided she wanted to keep her baby so we didn't have to go there.

    That being said, however, I still don't think I have the right to tell another human being that they can't have an abortion. I particularly think that in the case of rape and/or incest or if the mother's life is in danger, abortions should be allowed.
     
  2. Flappycat

    Flappycat Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to explain my answer...just real quick. It's not so much that I think using it as birth control should be illegal, per se, but the divider between lacking respect for living things and putting your own self-respect before any concern for an embryo is self-respect. Done with a minimum of taste, I can't really find fault in abortion, though things get a touch fuzzy at the point of viability.

    The moderate pro-lifers should show some gratitude to the justices who passed Roe, for it assured that the government retains the ability to place restrictions on abortion at most stages of foetal development, particularly past the point of viability. Find them, and thank them profusely.

    And no, fetuses don't have souls. Neither do you.
     
  3. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    To me, it is ONLY the woman's choice. I think the religious arguments only serve to confuse the situation. I'm not even so sure men have a right to any opinion on the matter. Men tend to think because they made it happen, that they have an interest in what is at stake. Frankly, tell that to all the unwed mothers in our world and to kids with absentee fathers.

    The day we are becoming an endangered species, I might change my tune.
     
  4. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Unless and until you are talking about killing a person for convenience.
     
  5. Flappycat

    Flappycat Well-Known Member

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    The thing is, a fetus is not a person, and nothing can be said to make it a person. Look, the old system works. It just works.

    When a woman is pregnant, you see to her needs and do whatever is necessary to keep her happy. After she has given birth, you make sure that her infant is taken care of and do whatever is needed to make it easier for her to do so. When the infant enters early childhood, you keep it from destroying things to whatever possible extent and make sure it gains basic discipline without inhibiting it too much. As the child grows older, you teach it about basic responsibility and make sure it gets the prerequisites to education. When the child becomes an adolescent, you use the hormones as a hellforge for learning self-control and firmly but gently take it through the transition from childhood to adulthood, increasingly affording it positions of trust. When that adolescent becomes a young adult, the parents begin to shift major adult responsibilities onto it, doing whatever is possible to make sure that it will be fully self-sufficient as a full adult, what the Romans called iuventus.

    It's a good system. It's effective. It works. It's a part of nature. Rather, nature was women throwing unwanted infants into the river, but that's a little gross and unnecessary now we have wonderful, little things like abortion.
     
  6. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    What I find most repulsive about the issue is the ease with which people such as you make such proclamations.

    And this is the kind of thinking that results.
     
  7. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    I should post pictures of my ultrasounds during my SECOND month of pregnancy...then tell me if you still think the unborn aren't little people.
     
  8. Flappycat

    Flappycat Well-Known Member

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    It's true, though. A fetus isn't the same thing as a person. A child isn't the same as an adult, and a human isn't the same as a cow.

    It's true, though. When primitive women had it in their heads that they didn't have the resources to support an infant, they'd throw it in the nearest ravine without a second thought unless they could foist it onto someone else. Well into early modern times, it wasn't completely alien for reasonably well-off families to find "little bundles of joy" on their doorsteps, called "parasitism" by scientists. In nature, litters are abandoned all the time, and there are any number of animals that have parasitic nesting habits. Husbands dote on their pregnant wives exactly because, in the old, old days, it was a necessary part of making sure that their women would take care of their infants.

    Nowadays, we abort them as fetuses rather than abandoning them as infants. I say it's an improvement. If it's any comfort to you, I think it's horribly uncivilized to wait until late in pregnancy to get this taken care of, but I honestly don't see why anyone would have any sort of sympathy for a fetus at all, particularly one that was aborted before there was any way for it to notice its demise even at the reptilian level.
     
  9. Flappycat

    Flappycat Well-Known Member

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    They're humans in the pre-birth developmental stages, but they're certainly not people. I'd consider my pet dog and three cats people before assigning such a description to a fetus.
     
  10. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    At six weeks gestation...before a lot of women even know that they are pregnant...their embryo already has a beating heart which can be seen via ultrasound at around 7 weeks gestation.

    At around ten weeks gestation...all vital organs are formed and the fetus looks very much like a tiny little baby. The fetus is sentient at 12 weeks of gestation and can move. I saw both of my girls sucking their thumbs in utero at just 10 weeks gestation.

    And...at 26 weeks of gestation...that "pre-birth development" actually has a chance to survive outside of the womb with the help of a kick booty NICU unit and a very caring NICU staff.

    I have YET to find ONE medical ailment that would REQUIRE a therapeutic abortion during the third trimester of a pregnancy to save the life of a mother. In fact, most doctors will do all they can to prolong the pregnancy for as long as possible...even if it means diligent monitoring of both mother and baby, complete bed rest and hospitalization and after 26 weeks gestation, in most cases...THEN and only THEN will labor be induced. Statistically, most third trimester abortions are NOT performed for medical reasons.

    In some states...after 26 weeks gestation...parents are legally required to bury a stillborn...

    I happen to feel great sympathy for the unborn embryo and fetus. My children were precious to me in utero. And that's something that you obviously can't understand. Their lives began BEFORE they were born...

    Further, with all the choices for contraception available for both men and women...I question why it's so common to defend the RIGHT for CHOICE and not reiterate the importance of RESPONSIBILITY. I KNOW there are always those horrible scenarios where the fetus has a defect or the child was conceived by rape or molestation. I know these scenarios do happen. But statistically...take a look and you'll see that most abortions are performed on unwed woman...for non medical purposes.
     
  11. standing_alone

    standing_alone Well-Known Member

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    Abortion is such a tough issue and it's hard to "take sides" on for me, but I'm pro-choice and chose option one in this poll. I think the women should have the choice to abort her pregnancy regardless of her reason to do so. I don't know if I agree with the "any time" part. I think abortions should be done as early as possible in any pregnancy. I guess I believe that a later abortion should only be performed if the mother's life and/or well-being is threatened or the baby is disabled greatly and would have a greatly low quality of life (SEVERE mental retardation, for example). Now don't think I advocate aborting all pregnancies/fetuses for reasons such as mental retardation, as I think they have every right to live as well, but raising a child like that can be physically, emotionally, and financially draining and the mother should have the choice. And regardless of the baby's health, I will just quote gracie since she said it so well
    . And the old tired argument that I would rather have a doctor perform a medical procedure to abort a pregnancy, rather than having it done with a coat hanger and vodka. I myself would love to have no abortions performed in this world, but with the state of the world, it is not a realistic hope. I'm fine with women getting abortions (I would want to be able to choose, if I, myself, was pregnant), although I'd rather they would give birth and either raise the child or put it up for adoption, but then again the whole adoption system... It's such a hard issue. It just sucks so much, either way.
     
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  12. Flappycat

    Flappycat Well-Known Member

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    This really does sound to me like naive empiricism. You see something that looks like a person and assume that it's a person.

    Personally, I think that it's very uncivilized to abort electively at this stage of pregnancy.

    It's deplorable, isn't it?

    I still don't see what's wrong with cremation.

    I can understand many things. I can even understand your feelings and am, myself, capable of sentimentality. They are illogical and not a basis for judgements of import. I think that it is you who fails to comprehend my perspective on the matter.

    Personally, I don't think that irresponsible people should give birth at all.

    And still, you're unsupportive of their right to abort? What of complex scenarios that are just as horrible but aren't really covered by either of those descriptions? Can you know the thoughts and circumstances of every woman who goes in for an abortion? Have you ever been coldly and callusly jilted? How many men do you think suddenly flee their women upon discovering a pregnancy, not wanting to deal with a child? We wouldn't have child support laws if this had never been a problem, and it's always, always, ALWAYS been a problem, unfortunately.

    This is really the responsible thing for them to do, though, don't you think? It's actually a fact that single parents tend to perform poorly.
     
  13. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    Naive empiricism? I provided you with info regarding my personal experiences but I also provided you with FACTS about the average gestational milestones for most babies.

    Yeah...

    I'd say so.

    Say that to someone who was actually looking forward to having a baby.

    I think I have a clear comprehension of your perspective. Further, I'm only providing my opinion on the matter, as you are.

    Or maybe irresponsible people should simply refrain from having unprotected sex.

     
  14. Buttons*

    Buttons* Glass half Panda'd

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    I will never tell anyone what they should or should not do with their body, i expect people to entitle me to my body... it is mine after all. Besides, if they have an abortion, its just hurting them, so just let them be, the best thing to do is not to judge anyone... we dont have that right...
     
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  15. mr.guy

    mr.guy crapsack

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    Tell that to the pro-choice anti-condom group. It seems to me that the ethical pro-lifer should be pragmatically inclined to encourage steralization. One who can't impregnate is at little to no risk of coming face-to-face with this dilemma.
     
  16. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    You're right...we shouldn't judge...but that doesn't stifle our right to an opinion. :D
     
  17. jamaesi

    jamaesi To Save A Lamb

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    So if there are all these hopeful mothers just falling all over themselves to have children in their lives and condemn those who get abortions...

    Why are there still children waiting to be adopted? Why are some children living in abuse why they are shuffled from foster home to foster home until they're 18? Are children who are darkskinned or disabled less lovable than a cute widdle 2 week old fetus?


    When every last child is adopted I'll take those "shame on you" pity-mongering posts a little more seriously.
     
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  18. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    I'm not one of those anti-condom individuals. And I'm all for contraceptive education and distribution.

    When you have the freedom to make choices...you are obliged to take responsibility for your actions. I don't understand why contraception or even abstinence are such horrible concepts.
     
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  19. Flappycat

    Flappycat Well-Known Member

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    The problem is that you seem to take resemblance to a person to make something a person.

    Ah, there's a start! Two things that we can reasonably agree upon!

    Understand, I favor cremation over burial in general. I consider burial demeaning and wouldn't want it done to my body.

    Are you sure?

    That also, but they certainly shouldn't be trusted with children.

    Under some circumstances, yes.

    The responsible thing is to explore many options, including abortion. Abortion is often the quickest and easiest, and some women choose it based on this. That's their choice, however, and you haven't a right to make it for them. Nobody really has a right to say what you do with your offspring, either. Under the same notion of reproductive rights, you have the same right to give birth that you have to abort.

    And there are plenty of married women who are quite glad they waited for the right time and place for a child...and are quite excellent mothers, themselves. There are also many children of single mothers who really wish their moms had spent some of those child support payments on them or, better yet, never put them through the bother of living at all.

    Well...this is why we call ourselves "pro-choice" rather than "pro-abortion."

    Tell me, how would you feel about a powerful faction that wished to control when and whether you give birth, down to forcing abortion or birth on you, according to their agenda and without regard for your wishes? To prevent such things, we need to grab hold of the idea of reproductive rights now. We need to assure future generations of their right to choice in matters of reproduction.
     
  20. mr.guy

    mr.guy crapsack

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    Excluding the freedom to chose to have an abortion, of course.
    They aren't. But if more people were encouraged to get themselves steralized, that would represent an equitable population that wouldn't need to worry for themselves concerning abortions. I think anyone vehemently opposed to abortion ought to propegate human neutering if they like to take themselves ethically serious.
     
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