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Abortion: Are you pro-life or pro-choice?

What is your stance on abortion?


  • Total voters
    113

flupke

Member
If the unborn child is conscious about pain, it should NEVER be killed. Whether the woman was raped or not doesn't matter. You wouldn't kill a 5-year old kid because you found out it was the result of rape, would you ?

If there is no consiousness yet, then I have no problems with abortion in any instance.

Given the problem of testing consciousness, there has to be a very safe margin. Definitely, if there is no neural tube yet, then it's absolutely safe.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
jamaesi said:
So if there are all these hopeful mothers just falling all over themselves to have children in their lives and condemn those who get abortions...

Why are there still children waiting to be adopted? Why are some children living in abuse why they are shuffled from foster home to foster home until they're 18? Are children who are darkskinned or disabled less lovable than a cute widdle 2 week old fetus?


When every last child is adopted I'll take those "shame on you" pity-mongering posts a little more seriously.
My intent wasn't so much to impose a ""shame on you" pity-mongering" message as much as I was trying to illustrate a point. We're so quick to defend the right of choice yet we don't want to focus on the responsibillities associated with making choices.

My husband's aunt has fostered for 20 years along with caring for her neices and nephews. They've tried to adopt every single child that they've cared for. They are now in the process of trying to adopt two children. One IS a baby. But the other is a little boy that they've fostered for years. They love him dearly. They provide for him financially and have given him a wonderful life but his biological mother, who wants nothing to do with him will not relinquish her parental rights. So, this little guy is stuck in foster care limbo.

All children are precious...regardless of age and race. And believe it or not...there are good people out there desparately wanting to adopt but are unable to for reasons beyond their control.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
flupke said:
If the unborn child is conscious about pain, it should NEVER be killed. Whether the woman was raped or not doesn't matter. You wouldn't kill a 5-year old kid because you found out it was the result of rape, would you ?

If there is no consiousness yet, then I have no problems with abortion in any instance.

Given the problem of testing consciousness, there has to be a very safe margin. Definitely, if there is no neural tube yet, then it's absolutely safe.
Many are sentient by 12 weeks gestation.
 

flupke

Member
dawny0826 said:
Many are sentient by 12 weeks gestation.
I don't want to argue about the same topic in 2 different threads, but the word 'sentience' usually implies 'consciousness'. If that's what you meant, stating that they 'are' is unproven, but lies solely on the assumption that the appearance of pain receptors and a simple neural network is sufficient for consciousness. Unproven, probably not true, but I'm willing to accept 12 weeks as a safe margin.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
mr.guy said:
Excluding the freedom to chose to have an abortion, of course.
They aren't. But if more people were encouraged to get themselves steralized, that would represent an equitable population that wouldn't need to worry for themselves concerning abortions. I think anyone vehemently opposed to abortion ought to propegate human neutering if they like to take themselves ethically serious.
I think sterilization is extreme, when a bit of rubber can be pretty darn effective...
 

mr.guy

crapsack
dawny0826 said:
I think sterilization is extreme, when a bit of rubber can be pretty darn effective...
As do i. But isn't abortion extreme? On a toss up, which is the worst procedure?
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
flupke said:
I don't want to argue about the same topic in 2 different threads, but the word 'sentience' usually implies 'consciousness'. If that's what you meant, stating that they 'are' is unproven, but lies solely on the assumption that the appearance of pain receptors and a simple neural network is sufficient for consciousness. Unproven, probably not true, but I'm willing to accept 12 weeks as a safe margin.
I hear you there. (Gasp!):)
 

mr.guy

crapsack
dawny0826 said:
I would imagine that a vasectomy would be less invasive.:D
So, can we conclude that male steralization should definately be included as part of the pro-life platform and campaign?
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
Flappycat said:
The problem is that you seem to take resemblance to a person to make something a person.

Ah, there's a start! Two things that we can reasonably agree upon!

Understand, I favor cremation over burial in general. I consider burial demeaning and wouldn't want it done to my body.

Are you sure?

That also, but they certainly shouldn't be trusted with children.

Under some circumstances, yes.

The responsible thing is to explore many options, including abortion. Abortion is often the quickest and easiest, and some women choose it based on this. That's their choice, however, and you haven't a right to make it for them. Nobody really has a right to say what you do with your offspring, either. Under the same notion of reproductive rights, you have the same right to give birth that you have to abort.

And there are plenty of married women who are quite glad they waited for the right time and place for a child...and are quite excellent mothers, themselves. There are also many children of single mothers who really wish their moms had spent some of those child support payments on them or, better yet, never put them through the bother of living at all.

Well...this is why we call ourselves "pro-choice" rather than "pro-abortion."

Tell me, how would you feel about a powerful faction that wished to control when and whether you give birth, down to forcing abortion or birth on you, according to their agenda and without regard for your wishes? To prevent such things, we need to grab hold of the idea of reproductive rights now. We need to assure future generations of their right to choice in matters of reproduction.
I still think they're people in utero. :p (nah, nah)

No, I don't have the right to make choices for people. I know this. I always have.

I saw a second trimester abortion when I was in high school and it was the single most upsetting thing I've ever seen in my life. Even before I was a Christian...this is just one of those issues that meant a lot to me and still does.

But you're right...I don't have the right to make choices for people. And despite how I come across, I have always been respectful to individuals in my life who have chosen abortion as the best choice for themselves. I don't agree with it and I will speak out...there has to be someone...somewhere at some point in time who will understand where I'm coming from...and if not...whatever. :D

I don't have a problem with freedom of choice but I think when reiterating and educating people on their freedoms of choice...the obligation to be responsible and to be aware of the PREVENTATIVE measures available to avoid unwanted pregnancies should be reiterated as well.

I knew a girl, who didn't want a baby at all but had unprotected sex and got pregnant. Then aborted the baby because the morning sickness was too much of a distraction. She had the right to do what she did. And I didn't say anything negative to her. But had she taken precautions...she wouldn't have been in that position.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
mr.guy said:
So, can we conclude that male steralization should definately be included as part of the pro-life platform and campaign?
Actually, the sterilization idea was yours, so what do you think?:D
 

mr.guy

crapsack
dawny0826 said:
Actually, the sterilization idea was yours, so what do you think?:D
I'm not a pro-life; i'd have little say on behalf of their agenda. Were my suggested measures implemented as part of the pro-life movement it would certainly help me take them more seriously regarding how honestly they consider the "right to life" as central to being pro-life.
 

WeAreAllOne

Member
FlappyCat said:
but I honestly don't see why anyone would have any sort of sympathy for a fetus at all, particularly one that was aborted before there was any way for it to notice its demise even at the reptilian level.
Look, I understand what you were saying and I commend you for stating your views. However this was going way to far, I’m not sure if you read my post a few pages back but even though I’m pro-choice and my better half has exercised this choice, it was still our child…. Even though it was only a month and so many days old. It was sad. It will be with both of us for the rest of our lives. This is no topic to take lightly, and no choice to make on a whim. You have no idea how it effects people afterwards. It kills me to see the pro-life people make such horrific comments about what we had to do. (obviously not referring to you) They have no idea what this means to someone. I want to say more but I have to stop here because I really don’t feel like talking about this anymore. It still hurts, remember that, all of you, before you judge someone for their choices.

Just a side note: I searched out this little soul for about two weeks or so in meditation. I called to it and when it finally responded, a feeling of peace overwhelmed me. It somehow let me know that it still wanted to be with us and when it was time it would be waiting. I don’t know what you think of this and honestly don’t want to hear any negative comments about it at all. Thank you.

 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
mr.guy said:
I'm not a pro-life; i'd have little say on behalf of their agenda. Were my suggested measures implemented as part of the pro-life movement it would certainly help me take them more seriously regarding how honestly they consider the "right to life" as central to being pro-life.
And suggesting sterilization would make pro-lifers more credible? :confused: Am I following you correctly?
 

mr.guy

crapsack
dawny0826 said:
And suggesting sterilization would make pro-lifers more credible? :confused: Am I following you correctly?
They would be advocating measures that could make abortions potentially less frequent; far more practical then solely petitioning the against the legality of abortion. In short, yes, it would lend some credibility regarding the with what extra-puritanical seriousness they approach the issue with.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
WeAreAllOne said:
Look, I understand what you were saying and I commend you for stating your views. However this was going way to far, I’m not sure if you read my post a few pages back but even though I’m pro-choice and my better half has exercised this choice, it was still our child…. Even though it was only a month and so many days old. It was sad. It will be with both of us for the rest of our lives. This is no topic to take lightly, and no choice to make on a whim. You have no idea how it effects people afterwards. It kills me to see the pro-life people make such horrific comments about what we had to do. (obviously not referring to you) They have no idea what this means to someone. I want to say more but I have to stop here because I really don’t feel like talking about this anymore. It still hurts, remember that, all of you, before you judge someone for their choices.

Just a side note: I searched out this little soul for about two weeks or so in meditation. I called to it and when it finally responded, a feeling of peace overwhelmed me. It somehow let me know that it still wanted to be with us and when it was time it would be waiting. I don’t know what you think of this and honestly don’t want to hear any negative comments about it at all. Thank you.

I'm so truly sorry. I don't know if you are referencing any of my posts but if so...I want you to know that I'm truly sorry if anything I posted hurt you. Sometimes, it's easy to get lost in the moment of trying to prove a point and sensitivity gets left behind somewhere along the way.

I'm making an assumption here that perhaps I may have contributed to your upset and I want you to know that I'm deeply sorry if I did. Your post truly opened my eyes to some things that I probably haven't thought on...and probably should.
 

WeAreAllOne

Member
my post wasent directed to anyone but Flappycat and even then I wouldent really say it was. i just used what S/he said as an opener more than anything. I dont post in the abortion treads for the reasons stated about because i couldent bring myself to do it. For some reason I thought I could tonight and it became really, really hard about half way though. I'm not looking for appoligys or anything of that nature. I just want people to have a diffrent veiwpoint to look at. No more, no less.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
WeAreAllOne said:
my post wasent directed to anyone but Flappycat and even then I wouldent really say it was. i just used what S/he said as an opener more than anything. I dont post in the abortion treads for the reasons stated about because i couldent bring myself to do it. For some reason I thought I could tonight and it became really, really hard about half way though. I'm not looking for appoligys or anything of that nature. I just want people to have a diffrent veiwpoint to look at. No more, no less.
Honestly, that's what I enjoy most about this site...is that sometimes...I feel 100% on a topic and then...someone brings new light onto an issue.

Thank you for sharing.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
mr.guy said:
They would be advocating measures that could make abortions potentially less frequent; far more practical then solely petitioning the against the legality of abortion. In short, yes, it would lend some credibility regarding the with what extra-puritanical seriousness they approach the issue with.
I don't know...
 
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