Thanks for helping me walk in the other shoes.
I understand now where you are coming from by walking in your shoes, and thank you now that I understand you are not trying to deny people their religion.
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A call to atheists...let's have at the Ten Commandments
- Thread starter Evangelicalhumanist
- Start date
I understand now where you are coming from by walking in your shoes, and thank you now that I understand you are not trying to deny people their religion.
The Ten Commandments I listed, the one mentioned in the Op but not copy pasted, are vile commandments of hatred and wicked warfare.
The famous Ten Commandments thatcare different than those I posted, seem largely ok, if not poor and deficient in many ways.
The famous Ten Commandments thatcare different than those I posted, seem largely ok, if not poor and deficient in many ways.
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Are you a clown? I don't understand.
Well, except for this stinking virus thingy, much better! And I am still all in favour of people attending the church, temple, mosque or synagogue of their choice, whenever they want. Heck, in May (during "Doors Open") I've been known to visit orthodox churches followed by very old synagogues and a mandir or two. But that's because I love culture and art, and try to celebrate whatever good I can find about our human family. I just don't want to be told what I have to do, for any religious reason.
I'm not familiar with ten commandments about warfare.
I am happy to answer questions, but so as not to derail EH’s thread any further, perhaps we can take this to: The Interview Place
If you would like to start a thread there I will be more than willing to share our views on things.
There is another version in the Bible (the only one, in fact, that actually uses the words "the Ten Commandments" in verse 28), which I alluded to and he actually posted earlier (can't remember which post number). But it's in Exodus 34:1-28.
There, you will find God actually saying things like the following:
10 Then the Lord said: “I am making a covenant with you. Before all your people I will do wonders never before done in any nation in all the world. The people you live among will see how awesome is the work that I, the Lord, will do for you. 11 Obey what I command you today. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 12 Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. 13 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles.[a] 14 Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
15 “Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. 16 And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same.
Appreciated.
I was mainly annoyed by not having things available to access on certain days, I'm not particularly fond of any holidays when it obstructs my frivolous or whimsical desires.
Speaking if which, I'll covet my neighbors wife if I damn well please! The problem is that barbarian will try to covet my wife! This can go down two ways, Swinging, or Swinging Objects With Intent To Harm.
God is Man Amplified, especially when it comes to YHWH, and the laws of God are the laws of man, with heightened volume.
I have to thus sacrifice my hot NILF in order to protect my WAH.
If I don't, it may lead to war and chaos.
Some of the sneaky humans though figured out how to use the Ancient Voice Changer and say "God has commanded that you give me, ahem, my servant Frovo, your wife, and her sex daughters, this is God".
This, these are the more "War" related Commandments. Like they say "Don't make treaties, break their stuff, don't marry them" "I'll run them out if you do this".
Well anyway, I think a Jew would just say that those people knew about the Hebrew God and were rebelling against Him which is always very serious, but we don't deal with it the same way now as anciently.
I am not trying to be confrontational, so if you want to stop it there for me it is alright.
And I liked the alternative 10 commandments video.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
Greetings. Glad I could bring some insights. Which parts in particular would you like me to elaborate on?
The Two Versions, The Two Generations, The Backstory and parts mentioned among the discussions and extra-biblical writings and Oral Torah, other things related to the commandments and nations involved and nature of Adonai and exclusivity of Adonai.
The Exodus 34:1 - 34:28 Commands or Contract and history around it, before it, after it.
The Nations, their Gods, the nature of their Gods compared to Adonai, why the four letter name was not pronounced, how the commands were each interpreted and the scope of their implications or applications and how broadly they encompassed things.
I'm very interested and also when you learned and what the sources are for each thing you might mention, explain, or quote.
What also is the model or description of how these things were imagined if at all like any Divine Realms, Councils, Forms, Realities, before Maimonedes school of thought and after.
The Exodus 34:1 - 34:28 Commands or Contract and history around it, before it, after it.
The Nations, their Gods, the nature of their Gods compared to Adonai, why the four letter name was not pronounced, how the commands were each interpreted and the scope of their implications or applications and how broadly they encompassed things.
I'm very interested and also when you learned and what the sources are for each thing you might mention, explain, or quote.
What also is the model or description of how these things were imagined if at all like any Divine Realms, Councils, Forms, Realities, before Maimonedes school of thought and after.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
Okay. I think I understand what you are asking for elaboration on. Considering the following:
- The Torah was given by the source of creation to the Israeli/Jewish people as a nation.
- The Torah was given to the Israeli/Jewish people in a written form along with an oral explaination of each instruction concerning either a) how to practically perform the instructions of the written text it or b) how to derive and development correct concepts in all situations based on the principles/lessons of the written text and c) how to make judicial rulings in the case of future developments.
- All of the above is applicable to Israelis/Jews on a personal, seasonal, judicial, cultural, and national level.
- There are some commands/instructions that were given to the Israelis/Jews that were relevant to situations. For example, the majority of the 613 commands deal with how to manage the Temple that eventually was set up here in Jerusalem. If Jews could not, due to circumstance, live in the land of Israel and(or) not maintain/build/rebuild the Temple then the other commands continue and the learning about the details/concepts of all of the commands continue, even the ones about the Temple.
- The wars concerning entering the land of Israel against the Canaanite nations was seen in two ways. a) The creator of all things is the judge of how humanity manages itself in the reality the creator established thus there are times where there are various means for how a judgement is carried out. For example, what is called Avodah Zara is called out by the Torah to be as if it is against the way the creator created human reality to be. The Canaanites were considered to have created a culture steeped in Avodah Zara (sometimes called idolotry but the concept is quite a bit more detailed than the English word idolotry is) and thus they were given time by Hashem to correct their culture. When they did not take that opportunity then the creator chose the entrance of the nation of Israel to be the method of correcting the situation. b) According to Jewish oral Troah law it is forbidden to go to war with ANY nation/people unless several conditions are met. 1) the nation of Israel of that generation must be keeping the Torah properly (written and oral) 2) the nation of Israel must first send out a request peace, the chance for those who want to flee to flee, and the chance to go the not so nice route. 3) even if the last option is chosen by the enemy nation the Jewish nation is required to attack only three sides - giving those who want to get away from the action the ability to.
- Not marrying from the nations is to keep the Israeli/Jewish nation from taking on foreign concepts/practices that are related to Avodah Zara. YET, any person who wants to join the Israeli/Jewish nation and take on the Torah can by becoming a Geir(male)/Gioret female. Jews are required to love, protect, and provide for those who become Geirim in this way. There is also a type of Geir who does not take on the Torah as a Jew but accepts the 7 Noachide laws. Though a Jew is not to marry a Noachide - Noachides are treated with high levels of respect.
- The conquest of the Torah was only concerning the land of Canaan and Jews are were not/are not allowed to take that outside of a certain area. I.e. there is no concept of a Jewish army going around the world to convert and conquer various nations.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
I hope you have a lot of free time. That is a lot to try and give more detail on.
I will start bit by bit and make seperate posts. I have a few videos I have done on YouTube that make help a bit.
Two Versions for Two Generations:
Version 1: The creator of all things gave that version to the entire Jewish nation. I.e. national revelation. All Jews of that generation heard the words that are mentioned in Exodus 20. Version 2: The younger members of the generation that heard Version 1 and the children who were born after version 1 was given meet with Moses before he dies. Moses makes 13 copies fo the written Torah - 12 to the 12 tribes and a master copy that was placed with the ark in the Tabernacle and later was in the Temple in Jerusalem. Before Moses died he explained the Torah in more detail (written and oral) as a restatement to this generation that was about to enter into the land of Canaan. The written text of the Torah details the "Cliff notes" of all of this in Deut. and in Moses restatement of the 10 commands/sayings the creator gave him additional concepts that would be relevant to the generation that would enter into the land of Israel. There are also some sources that say that when Moses heard the 10 commands, because of the type of prophet he was, he heard both versions at the same time where the generation that heard version 1 heard only version 1 because they were overwhelmed by the experience of the creator giving the 10 commands the way that it was given. For example, our sources say that that generation both heard and saw the words of the creator being written in the air like fire or lightning. Also, there are some sources that say that it was as if they heard millions of voices speaking the Torah at the same time like waves crashing against rocks on a beach.
I hope you have a lot of free time. That is a lot to try and give more detail on.
I will start bit by bit and make seperate posts. I have a few videos I have done on YouTube that make help a bit.
Two Versions for Two Generations:
Version 1: The creator of all things gave that version to the entire Jewish nation. I.e. national revelation. All Jews of that generation heard the words that are mentioned in Exodus 20. Version 2: The younger members of the generation that heard Version 1 and the children who were born after version 1 was given meet with Moses before he dies. Moses makes 13 copies fo the written Torah - 12 to the 12 tribes and a master copy that was placed with the ark in the Tabernacle and later was in the Temple in Jerusalem. Before Moses died he explained the Torah in more detail (written and oral) as a restatement to this generation that was about to enter into the land of Canaan. The written text of the Torah details the "Cliff notes" of all of this in Deut. and in Moses restatement of the 10 commands/sayings the creator gave him additional concepts that would be relevant to the generation that would enter into the land of Israel. There are also some sources that say that when Moses heard the 10 commands, because of the type of prophet he was, he heard both versions at the same time where the generation that heard version 1 heard only version 1 because they were overwhelmed by the experience of the creator giving the 10 commands the way that it was given. For example, our sources say that that generation both heard and saw the words of the creator being written in the air like fire or lightning. Also, there are some sources that say that it was as if they heard millions of voices speaking the Torah at the same time like waves crashing against rocks on a beach.
I do have a lot of free time these days!
Can you also possibly come to this thread I made for member Deeje, it requests a full and lengthy explanation of your particular beliefs and religion and religious practice which I'd love to know everything about as it is lived by you personally and uniquely.
Bring Me Your Religions, Their Fruits, Perfumes, Their Juices, and Other Gossip (Detailed!)
I made it based on your suggestion! Awaiting your great work and contributions!
Bring Me Your Religions, Their Fruits, Perfumes, Their Juices, and Other Gossip (Detailed!)
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
I'd love more on Avodah Zara and its nuances since I think it also heavily relates to the concepts important in the commandments and throughout the scriptures.
Your explanation was wonderful and very clear, well organized, and concise! I also liked very much the merciful factors like the three sided attack leaving room for the fleeing and things like that, do you have quotes for those things emphasizing mercy and openings?