A call to atheists...let's have at the Ten Commandments

[Ehav4Ever]

I do have a lot of free time these days!

Can you also possibly come to this thread I made for member Deeje, it requests a full and lengthy explanation of your particular beliefs and religion and religious practice which I'd love to know everything about as it is lived by you personally and uniquely.

Bring Me Your Religions, Their Fruits, Perfumes, Their Juices, and Other Gossip (Detailed!)

What may be simplier is that I can create a thread in the Orthodox Judaism thread about Torath Mosheh. I was planning on do so anyway since I knew the term is not familiar to people who don't live in Israel.

Here is the Thread:

Torath Mosheh

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I'd love more on Avodah Zara and its nuances since I think it also heavily relates to the concepts important in the commandments and throughout the scriptures.

Your explanation was wonderful and very clear, well organized, and concise! I also liked very much the merciful factors like the three sided attack leaving room for the fleeing and things like that, do you have quotes for those things emphasizing mercy and openings?

The best, and most detailed source, that I think will help you understand the concept of Avodah Zara is from the Mishnah Torah by Rabbi Mosheh ben-Maimon. I have provided a link below. If you go through it chapter by chapter he wrote a very detailed explaination. Be be aware though that he wrote in Hebrew and there are some concepts that the site below has in the English translation that are not exact according to the Hebrew but it is a start.

Translation of the Mishnah Torah - Hilchoth (Jewish Law) concerning Avodah Zara

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

The best, and most detailed source, that I think will help you understand the concept of Avodah Zara is from the Mishnah Torah by Rabbi Mosheh ben-Maimon. I have provided a link below. If you go through it chapter by chapter he wrote a very detailed explaination. Be be aware though that he wrote in Hebrew and there are some concepts that the site below has in the English translation that are not exact according to the Hebrew but it is a start.

Translation of the Mishnah Torah - Hilchoth (Jewish Law) concerning Avodah Zara

Fantastic resource! I will bookmark it and start reading it very carefully! This is helping me a great deal!

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Getting back to the Big Ten, for a moment, if I may...

Let's do Thou shalt not kill and thout shalt not steal (numbers 6 and 8 -- I always leave adultery to the last possible moment ).

The problem that I find with these, in context, and remember what we've said earlier about the version in Exodus 34, is that all this is a prelude to the biblical conquering of Canaan -- of quite literally killing all of the peoples there, including children, and the taking of their land. (Please understand, I accept all of this as myth -- I am talking to those who take this story literally).

I cannot, in the context in which it is written, think anything other than that this means "don't kill or steal from people from your own group, but hey, anybody else is fair game -- especially if you need what they've got."

Now, I've got no problem with the notions of not killing and not stealing. Those are easy, because I don't want anybody to kill me, and I don't want them to take my valuable stuff, it is at least possible that I can reason it out that it would be wrong to do that to anyone else, right?

But I am constantly told, "you can't take Bible verses out of context, or you'll get the meaning all wrong." So, I'm not taking these verses out of context -- I'm putting them smack dab into the middle of the whole context of the story of the Exodus and the ensuing conquest and settlement of the Holy Land. And this is what I understood when I was quite young -- and what I rejected, because I couldn't do otherwise.

This is how I saw it: "God is saying 'don't do this, and don't do that, unless I tell you tell and unless it's good for you."

Now, I've made this argument before, and members here (and elsewhere) have told me things like, "the Canaanites were so bad and so depraved that the earth had to be cleansed of them." To which I say, "FLIPPLING RUBBISH." Nobody is so bad that you kill their children and take their virgin daughters for whatever vile purpose you might have in mind (I'll leave that to the imagination of the reader).

So, to sum up, I read Commandments 6 and 8 as necessarily -- in the context of the Torah -- as having certain "caveats" and "quid pro quos." Things like, don't kill anybody from your own group, but the rest of the heathens are fine. And don't steal from your neighbour (who happens to share your religion), but if somebody else has something you want, help yourself.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

Getting back to the Big Ten, for a moment, if I may...

Let's do Thou shalt not kill and thout shalt not steal (numbers 6 and 8 -- I always leave adultery to the last possible moment ).

The problem that I find with these, in context, and remember what we've said earlier about the version in Exodus 34, is that all this is a prelude to the biblical conquering of Canaan -- of quite literally killing all of the peoples there, including children, and the taking of their land. (Please understand, I accept all of this as myth -- I am talking to those who take this story literally).

I cannot, in the context in which it is written, think anything other than that this means "don't kill or steal from people from your own group, but hey, anybody else is fair game -- especially if you need what they've got."

Now, I've got no problem with the notions of not killing and not stealing. Those are easy, because I don't want anybody to kill me, and I don't want them to take my valuable stuff, it is at least possible that I can reason it out that it would be wrong to do that to anyone else, right?

But I am constantly told, "you can't take Bible verses out of context, or you'll get the meaning all wrong." So, I'm not taking these verses out of context -- I'm putting them smack dab into the middle of the whole context of the story of the Exodus and the ensuing conquest and settlement of the Holy Land. And this is what I understood when I was quite young -- and what I rejected, because I couldn't do otherwise.

This is how I saw it: "God is saying 'don't do this, and don't do that, unless I tell you tell and unless it's good for you."

Now, I've made this argument before, and members here (and elsewhere) have told me things like, "the Canaanites were so bad and so depraved that the earth had to be cleansed of them." To which I say, "FLIPPLING RUBBISH." Nobody is so bad that you kill their children and take their virgin daughters for whatever vile purpose you might have in mind (I'll leave that to the imagination of the reader).

So, to sum up, I read Commandments 6 and 8 as necessarily -- in the context of the Torah -- as having certain "caveats" and "quid pro quos." Things like, don't kill anybody from your own group, but the rest of the heathens are fine. And don't steal from your neighbour (who happens to share your religion), but if somebody else has something you want, help yourself.

I think you've understood correctly.

I think there are two options.

That the commands are universal and for all time and applying to all people, where they were immediately disobeyed or commanded other things which opposed such.

or

That the commands meant "among your group, so you prosper against the other groups" which makes a lot of sense, that those are indeed good tips for tribal unity, to avoid in-fighting, so that they can kill everyone else.

I too believe they never completed or succeeded in practically anything they claim.

The Qur'an has an Alt-Mythstory version of these events.

It says, God commanded them not to do these things, and they went ahead and did them, which was proving they are villainous, disobedient, transgressive, vile, murderous, criminals.

It heavily implies or says they made it up, but did kill people and do evil and claim by simply lying and making stuff up that God commanded them to, to which God in the Qur'an says, I gave no such official command, I don't command evil things (like the killing of babies, the Qur'an is big on not killing innocent babies).

I think that the truth is that nothing as exaggerated as what is in the Bible seems to be recorded in the records and remnants of the other nations so far, but that the people the Bible is talking about may have been a tribe which did exist and did act as marauding bandits occasionally.

I prefer the Qur'an over the Bible, which instead of leading people to defend the terrible stories of the Bible as commands of God towards purely evil acts of injustice against suckling infants, it says the people took to murdering and marauding among the nations they were told to live peacefully among and not to create bloodshed and chaos which they disregarded.

So I think the Qur'an is also more true or believable in the sense that there likely were marauders who were wiping out families and caravans, finding no use for babies just abandoning them or killing them, that stuff like that probably did happen and injustices were done in the ancient world, especially by Nationless anarchic wanderers with no clear civil laws like the more developed nations and established tribes.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I'm going to tackle Commandment 9, now -- "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour."

Okay, wait for it -- I AGREE. Except that it doesn't go far enough! I do not think you should bear false witness against anybody, not just your neighbour (which I am assuming, as with other texts, means people of your own group/faith/community).

I am interpreting the phrase "bear false witness" as perjury, or perhaps lying under oath, telling such lies as will cause painful repercussions against another person. There are some "lies" that I think are quite acceptable -- telling someone that "I'm sure your daughter's okay" when, in your heart, you're not at all sure that her absence is benign. An untruth that gives comfort cannot be a bad thing, in my view.

But to tell an untruth that could get somebody committed to prison, or fined, or even put to death, is monstrous, and if there were a God, that God would be absolutely right to deplore it.

There! For those who thought this day would never come, I just agreed with something in the Bible. (There are a very few who already know that I have parts of the Bible that I quite like, like Ecclesiastes, or 1 Corinthians 13.)

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

I'm going to tackle Commandment 9, now -- "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour."

Okay, wait for it -- I AGREE. Except that it doesn't go far enough! I do not think you should bear false witness against anybody, not just your neighbour (which I am assuming, as with other texts, means people of your own group/faith/community).

I am interpreting the phrase "bear false witness" as perjury, or perhaps lying under oath, telling such lies as will cause painful repercussions against another person. There are some "lies" that I think are quite acceptable -- telling someone that "I'm sure your daughter's okay" when, in your heart, you're not at all sure that her absence is benign. An untruth that gives comfort cannot be a bad thing, in my view.

But to tell an untruth that could get somebody committed to prison, or fined, or even put to death, is monstrous, and if there were a God, that God would be absolutely right to deplore it.

There! For those who thought this day would never come, I just agreed with something in the Bible. (There are a very few who already know that I have parts of the Bible that I quite like, like Ecclesiastes, or 1 Corinthians 13.)

The Qur'an takes the "do not bear false witness" thing as applicative to all humans in general and universally, not just the tribe.

It also claims:
5:32
For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than murder or committing corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs, but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Still leaving adultery to the last -- sort of like dessert -- let's tackle Number 10, that shalt not Covet.

Now first, it's important to note that this is not a commandment about actually doing anything -- it's one against even thinking about it. In other words, this is Big Brother dictating on "thought crimes." But what we actually think, the thoughts that pop into our heads about what we desire are really not things over which we have very much control -- they are built in. For those who believe that they are God's creation, therefore, our desires are those given by their creator.

Such desires actually have tremendous value. Wanting to have things is a way of "stocking up" against future hard times, so the desire for things -- money, property, food, etc. -- has got to be either an adaptive trait, or one installed by your god for your own good. And the fact is, we've already been told not to steal, so we have already been enjoined to turn our desires (our coveting) in the direction of more sanctioned activities -- go earn it, or grow it, or hunt it down yourself.

I think a corollary to this commandment is that it also designates way more than half of all of humanity to the status of property, or chattals, of the remainder. "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's." So women, and any one who serves (we're really talking about slaves, here), are equated to houses and oxen.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Okay, finally, the 7th Commandment: Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Things getting a little dull at home? Waiting until Thursday night beginning to pall? Hey, a little on the side can cheer up an otherwise humdrum existence, right?

Actually, wrong! In this day and age, with STDs running rampant, you can do real harm by bringing a little something home from that little dalliance, and that -- as any thinking person ought to know -- is wrong.

Look, it comes down to this: most people, when they marry, make a promise -- they promise to be faithful. It's right there in most vows. So live up to your damned promises -- and if you can't then FIRST get a divorce, THEN go see if you can find something more to your liking.

Now, I have to make an exception for those who have made agreements with their willing spouses -- swinger types, you know. If the agreement was made willingly and without any duress whatever, well, who am I (and who is God) to try and thwart the free desires of consenting adults? But always obey all the rules that the spouses have agreed to. And if you have kids, don't do it. That can put them in danger of suddenly belonging to a single parent (or no parent) family.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

To wrap this up, I thought to myself, why are the Commandments so essentially useless (in my view) for the modern world? Why not update them so that they better reflect what human life is like today?

Well, to my surprise, several people have actually done so, and I'll quote a couple here (since they are online and in the public domain, sourced at Wikipedia).

Read them all, and tell me that even the worst of them wouldn't make this world a much better place if we all followed them!

Christopher Hitchens

Christopher Hitchens was an English American author, columnist, essayist, orator, religious and literary critic, social critic, and journalist.

His new Ten Commandments are:

1. Do not condemn people on the basis of their ethnicity or their color.
2. Do not ever even think of using people as private property, or as owned, or as slaves.
3. Despise those who use violence or the threat of it in sexual relations.
4. Hide your face and weep if you dare to harm a child.
5. Do not condemn people for their inborn nature — why would God create so many homosexuals only in order to torture and destroy them?
6. Be aware that you, too, are an animal, and dependent on the web of nature. Try and think and act accordingly.
7. Do not imagine that you can escape judgement if you rob people with a false prospectus rather than with a knife.
8. Turn off that cell phone — you can have no idea how unimportant your call is to us.
9. Denounce all jihadists and crusaders for what they are: psychopathic criminals with ugly delusions. And terrible sexual repressions.
10. Be willing to renounce any god or any faith if any holy commandments should contradict any of the above.

In short: Don't swallow your moral code in tablet form.​

Richard Dawkins

Richard Dawkins is an English ethologist, evolutionary biologist, and author.

These are the alternative to the Ten Commandments, cited by Dawkins in his book The God Delusion:

1. Do not do to others what you would not want them to do to you.
2. In all things, strive to cause no harm.
3. Treat your fellow human beings, your fellow living things, and the world in general with love, honesty, faithfulness and respect.
4. Do not overlook evil or shrink from administering justice, but always be ready to forgive wrongdoing freely admitted and honestly regretted.
5. Live life with a sense of joy and wonder.
6. Always seek to be learning something new.
7. Test all things; always check your ideas against the facts, and be ready to discard even a cherished belief if it does not conform to them.
8. Never seek to censor or cut yourself off from dissent; always respect the right of others to disagree with you.
9. Form independent opinions on the basis of your own reason and experience; do not allow yourself to be led blindly by others.
10. Question everything.

Dawkins uses these proposed commandments to make a larger point that "it is the sort of list that any ordinary, decent person today would come up with". He then adds four more of his own devising:

• Enjoy your own sex life (so long as it damages nobody else) and leave others to enjoy theirs in private whatever their inclinations, which are none of your business.
• Do not discriminate or oppress on the basis of sex, race or (as far as possible) species.
• Do not indoctrinate your children. Teach them how to think for themselves, how to evaluate evidence, and how to disagree with you.
• Value the future on a timescale longer than your own.

Bertrand Russell

Bertrand Russell was a British philosopher, logician, mathematician, historian, writer, social critic, political activist, and Nobel laureate.

He formulated these ten commandments:

1. Do not feel absolutely certain of anything.
2. Do not think it worthwhile to proceed by concealing evidence, for the evidence is sure to come to light.
3. Never try to discourage thinking for you are sure to succeed.
4. When you meet with opposition, even if it should be from your husband or your children, endeavour to overcome it by argument and not by authority, for a victory dependent upon authority is unreal and illusory.
5. Have no respect for the authority of others, for there are always contrary authorities to be found.
6. Do not use power to suppress opinions you think pernicious, for if you do the opinions will suppress you.
7. Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.
8. Find more pleasure in intelligent dissent than in passive agreement, for, if you value intelligence as you should, the former implies a deeper agreement than the latter.
9. Be scrupulously truthful, even if the truth is inconvenient, for it is more inconvenient when you try to conceal it.
10. Do not feel envious of the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise, for only a fool will think that it is happiness.

Bayer and Figdor's Ten Non-Commandments

As detailed in the book Atheist Mind, Humanist Heart: Re-writing the Ten Commandments for the Twenty-first Century by Lex Bayer and the Stanford Humanist Chaplain John Figdor, it is devoted to the subject of creating a secular alternative to the Ten Commandments and encouraging readers to formulate and discover their own list of beliefs.

1. The world is real, and our desire to understand the world is the basis for belief.
2. We can perceive the world only through our human senses.
3. We use rational thought and language as tools for understanding the world.
4. All truth is proportional to the evidence.
5. There is no God.
6. We all strive to live a happy life. We pursue things that make us happy and avoid things that do not.
7. There is no universal moral truth. Our experiences and preferences shape our sense of how to behave.
8. We act morally when the happiness of others makes us happy.
9. We benefit from living in, and supporting, an ethical society.
10. All our beliefs are subject to change in the face of new evidence, including these.

The Atheists' New Ten Commandments

These are the ten winning beliefs of the Rethink Prize, a crowdsourcing competition to rethink the Ten Commandments. The contest drew more than 2,800 submissions from 18 countries and 27 U.S. states. Winners were selected by a panel of judges.

1. Be open-minded and be willing to alter your beliefs with new evidence.
2. Strive to understand what is most likely to be true, not to believe what you wish to be true.
3. The scientific method is the most reliable way of understanding the natural world.
4. Every person has the right to control of their body.
5. God is not necessary to be a good person or to live a full and meaningful life.
6. Be mindful of the consequences of all your actions and recognize that you must take responsibility for them.
7. Treat others as you would want them to treat you, and can reasonably expect them to want to be treated. Think about their perspective.
8. We have the responsibility to consider others, including future generations.
9. There is no one right way to live.
10. Leave the world a better place than you found it.

Ten Indian Commandments

The Bird Clan of East Central Alabama has the Ten Indian Commandments.

1. Remain close to the Great Spirit.
2. Show great respect for your fellow beings.
3. Give assistance and kindness wherever needed.
4. Be truthful and honest at all times.
5. Do what you know to be right.
6. Look after the well being of mind and body.
7. Treat the earth and all that dwell there on with respect.
8. Take full responsibility for your actions.
9. Dedicate a share of your efforts to the greater good.
10. Work together for the benefit of all man kind.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I have an idea! There are 134 potential "commandments in the previous post (#190). Why doesn't everybody who reads this pick what they think to be the absolutely 10 best from all of them, and we'll see if we can't come up with an RF version of commandments, which I think we'd be better off calling "Solutions for a Better Self and a Better World."

Have a go. Your top 10. Make 'em good.

Here are mine:

1. Dawkins 1: Do not do to others what you would not want them to do to you.
2. Indian 9: Dedicate a share of your efforts to the greater good.
3. Hitchens 6: Be aware that you, too, are an animal, and dependent on the web of nature. Try and think and act accordingly.
4. Atheists 8: We have the responsibility to consider others, including future generations.
5. Dawkins 9: Form independent opinions on the basis of your own reason and experience; do not allow yourself to be led blindly by others.
6. Atheists 2: Strive to understand what is most likely to be true, not to believe what you wish to be true.
7. Dawkins 4: Do not overlook evil or shrink from administering justice, but always be ready to forgive wrongdoing freely admitted and honestly regretted.
8. Russell 6: Do not use power to suppress opinions you think pernicious, for if you do the opinions will suppress you.
9. Bayer 10: All our beliefs are subject to change in the face of new evidence, including these.

 

[Messianic Israelite]

Though I call this a call to atheists, I'm delighted to have others chime in...especially those who adhere to alternate lists. (Heck, even FSM's Eight I'd Rather You Didn't afficionados may enjoy the romp.)

Now, let's begin with the fact that there are multiple versions of the Ten Commandments in the Bible. For instance, the only version that actually says "The Ten Commandments" (Ex 34:1-28) in it doesn't even look a tiny bit like the one that everybody wants to carve in stone outside their legislatures and courthouses, and inscribe on the walls -- or petit-point, for those so inclined.

But for the sake of simplicity, let's just accept Exodus 20:1-17, and number them as the Talmud does (hey, it's the original, and they oughta know). That numbering is in bold red numbers below.

Also, please forgive me if I stay with KJV...it's the one I know best.

Exodus 20:1-17 King James Version (KJV)

1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. (1)
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. (2)
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. (2)
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; (2)
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. (2)
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. (3)
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. (4)
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: (4)
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: (4)
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. (4)
12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee. (5)
13 Thou shalt not kill. (6)
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. (7)
15 Thou shalt not steal. (8)
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. (9)
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. (10)

Now, verse 1, of course, isn't a commandment at all. But oddly, neither is verse 2, which Talmud accepts as Commandment 1. But really, it's just a statement of supposed fact, isn't it? So, okay, I'll ease up a bit and say that Commandment 1 is really: 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Now, I think this deserves some criticism -- especially if you're going to post it anywhere that government is in control of. I mean, in the US, for example, the First Amendment makes this impossible! So, the US First Amendment to the Constitution is in direct opposition to the First Commandment! (I suppose I would be better off saying that the First Amendment is in opposition to the First Commandment, given the strict order of their production.)

Second, I can't help but notice that verse 5 is in complete contradiction to every civilized notion of justice -- the very idea of punishing the children, grand-children -- all the way to the great-great-grand-children (them's the fourth generation) -- is completely counter to the idea that nobody is punished except for that which they themselves are guilty of.

So, here's my invitation -- go ahead, but only if you are really willing to give an honest examination of the actual words, and their meaning, and to do so with some diligence, as I've tried to demonstrate.

Hi Evangelicalhumanist. Good afternoon. The reason for the confusion regarding the 1st, 2nd and 3rd commandments is that the Name of Yahweh has been removed from the text. The 1st and 3rd commandments relate to the Name Yahweh. Go ahead, read the name Yahweh in to the first and third commandment where it would appear in the Hebrew text.

It would read:
I am the Yahweh your Elohim, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. (1)
3 Thou shalt have no other elohim before me. (2)...
7 Thou shalt not take the name of Yahweh your Elohim in vain; for Yahweh will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. (3)

It's no mistake. The 10 commandments begins with the Name of Yahweh. Yahweh states forthright who He is to be in the lives of those that accept him - our Savior. He goes on to the second commandment saying that we are not to revere any other and to not make idols and then the third commandment specifically addresses the importance of the Name of Yahweh, that besides not taking idols we are not to take his name lightly. Vain to me implies 'empty'. We can have an empty worship if we don't properly revere the one and only true Name of the Most High which is His Name for all eternity. The very fact that Yahweh swears by His own Name proves the power and the importance of the Name since one always swears by that which is greatest to you.