A call to atheists...let's have at the Ten Commandments

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Though I call this a call to atheists, I'm delighted to have others chime in...especially those who adhere to alternate lists. (Heck, even FSM's Eight I'd Rather You Didn't afficionados may enjoy the romp.)

Now, let's begin with the fact that there are multiple versions of the Ten Commandments in the Bible. For instance, the only version that actually says "The Ten Commandments" (Ex 34:1-28) in it doesn't even look a tiny bit like the one that everybody wants to carve in stone outside their legislatures and courthouses, and inscribe on the walls -- or petit-point, for those so inclined.

But for the sake of simplicity, let's just accept Exodus 20:1-17, and number them as the Talmud does (hey, it's the original, and they oughta know). That numbering is in bold red numbers below.

Also, please forgive me if I stay with KJV...it's the one I know best.

Exodus 20:1-17 King James Version (KJV)

1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. (1)
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. (2)
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. (2)
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; (2)
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. (2)
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. (3)
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. (4)
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: (4)
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: (4)
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. (4)
12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee. (5)
13 Thou shalt not kill. (6)
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. (7)
15 Thou shalt not steal. (8)
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. (9)
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. (10)

Now, verse 1, of course, isn't a commandment at all. But oddly, neither is verse 2, which Talmud accepts as Commandment 1. But really, it's just a statement of supposed fact, isn't it? So, okay, I'll ease up a bit and say that Commandment 1 is really: 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Now, I think this deserves some criticism -- especially if you're going to post it anywhere that government is in control of. I mean, in the US, for example, the First Amendment makes this impossible! So, the US First Amendment to the Constitution is in direct opposition to the First Commandment! (I suppose I would be better off saying that the First Amendment is in opposition to the First Commandment, given the strict order of their production.)

Second, I can't help but notice that verse 5 is in complete contradiction to every civilized notion of justice -- the very idea of punishing the children, grand-children -- all the way to the great-great-grand-children (them's the fourth generation) -- is completely counter to the idea that nobody is punished except for that which they themselves are guilty of.

So, here's my invitation -- go ahead, but only if you are really willing to give an honest examination of the actual words, and their meaning, and to do so with some diligence, as I've tried to demonstrate.

 

[Emsy]

What are you asking exactly? And what do you hope to achieve with this thread? And why?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

What are you asking exactly? And what do you hope to achieve with this thread? And why?

I'm asking precisely what I said, because I am interested in human culture, and in philosophy. Please feel free to ignore it if those things are not of interest to you.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I wonder if anybody's every noticed that you don't even get to a "moral" Commandment until number 6? (Oh, lot's of people think number 5, honouring thy father and thy mother, is moral, but then not everybody is the child of a drug-addicted hooker who gave them up for adoption the instant they were born -- and I'm pretty sure honouring such a person shouldn't be forced on one. Of course, when one is grown to adulthood, hopefully one will develop a sense of sympathy for that parent, but I wouldn't actually command it.)

 

[Emsy]

I'm asking precisely what I said, because I am interested in human culture, and in philosophy. Please feel free to ignore it if those things are not of interest to you.

But you didn't really ask anything.

It really just sounded like an angry rant that was punctuated with a call for people to tell you how good your rant was.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

But you didn't really ask anything.

It really just sounded like an angry rant that was punctuated with a call for people to tell you how good your rant was.

I apologize that it wasn't terribly direct, but the title of the thread actually calls for a discussion "let's have at" the Ten Commandments. The rest of the OP set up the version to use, and ended with actual discussions (exemplars) of several commandments, finally followed up with the injunction "have a go."

As I said, if this is offensive to you, you are more than welcome to ignore it.

 

[Emsy]

I wonder if anybody's every noticed that you don't even get to a "moral" Commandment until number 6? (Oh, lot's of people think number 5, honouring thy father and thy mother, is moral, but then not everybody is the child of a drug-addicted hooker who gave them up for adoption the instant they were born -- and I'm pretty sure honouring such a person shouldn't be forced on one. Of course, when one is grown to adulthood, hopefully one will develop a sense of sympathy for that parent, but I wouldn't actually command it.)

Ignoring your harsh judgement about drug addicted sex workers, I would put to you that morality is a fluid concept forever drenched in subjectivity rather than empirical truth.

And if you are going to be railing on against the 10 Commandments in Christianity, I think it should be acknowledged that its origin was first a centuries old oral tradition which was then heavily manipulated and revised throughout the centuries that succeeded it.

Are you really that surprised that there are inconsistencies in the bible?

Or are you just trying to manufacture a talking point to get angry at Christianity and religion in general?

 

[Emsy]

I apologize that it wasn't terribly direct, but the title of the thread actually calls for a discussion "let's have at" the Ten Commandments. The rest of the OP set up the version to use, and ended with actual discussions (exemplars) of several commandments, finally followed up with the injunction "have a go."

As I said, if this is offensive to you, you are more than welcome to ignore it.

It's not offensive to me. Might be to many others - which I'm beginning to think is your sole intention.

Apparently my above post hit the nail on the head with your intentions here.

 

[Revoltingest]

I obey #3.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's not offensive to me. Might be to many others - which I'm beginning to think is your sole intention.

Apparently my above post hit the nail on the head with your intentions here.

I think you're wrong about him.
But offending others is often a goal here.
One just needs to be careful about who gets offended.

 

[Emsy]

But offending others is often a goal here.
One just needs to be careful about who gets offended.

Can you please name names?

 

[Revoltingest]

Can you please name names?

To do that would flirt with rule violations.
Besides, learning things the hard way is most instructive.

 

[Emsy]

I think you're wrong about him.

How is this thread anything but a rallying point to bash the Semitic religions?

 

[Revoltingest]

How is this thread anything but a rallying point to bash the Semitic religions?

We do indeed have threads intending to bash Christians.
(I dislike those.)
This isn't one of them.
It's about the 10 Commandments.
Atheists will likely have both good & bad things to say about'm.
For example, I support not murdering people.
But I oppose making Sunday a sacred day of rest.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

How is this thread anything but a rallying point to bash the Semitic religions?

It is just possible, and you should consider it, that as a Humanist and a person interested in philosophy, human cultures and human nature, I suspect that there may be much, much better ways to frame the basics of our moral principles. And that one of the ways of discovering those is discussion of those rules that we already suppose are the "be all and end all."

Please note, I asked people in this thread to discuss the Ten Commandments. So far, you have restricted your discussion to my motives.

 

[McBell]

Or are you just trying to manufacture a talking point to get angry at Christianity and religion in general?

It is interesting how you are guilty of the very thing you accuse the OP of....
As for "manufacturing a talking point", that was done for this particular talking point long before this forum existed

 

[McBell]

Please note, I asked people in this thread to discuss the Ten Commandments. So far, you have restricted your discussion to my motives.

Which could be taken as a rule violation....

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

We do indeed have threads intending to bash Christians.
(I dislike those.)
This isn't one of them.
It's about the 10 Commandments.
Atheists will likely have both good & bad things to say about'm.
For example, I support not murdering people.
But I oppose making Sunday a sacred day of rest.

And in fact, as you well know, I am against actually killing people -- not just murdering them. I have been very explicit in my objection to capital punishment, for instance, which is not (in some countries) considered murder.

 

[McBell]

How is this thread anything but a rallying point to bash the Semitic religions?

YOU have shown that this thread is in fact something other than a rallying point to bash religions....

 

[Revoltingest]

Which could be taken as a rule violation....

It wouldn't though.