A call to atheists...let's have at the Ten Commandments

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

A Christian never sees safety in numbers. God's people have always been in a minority. Why do you think Jesus foretold that "few" are on the road to life? (Matthew 7:13-14) If you are one of the "many"...be afraid....be very afraid.



If you knew what Jesus' Jewish audience understood by the term, you would know that there is no "hell".

"Gehenna" was a reference to the Valley of Hinnom where the apostate Israelites used to sacrifice their children to Molech. God put a stop to that and the valley (just outside the walls of Jerusalem) became the city's garbage dump. It was kept burning day and night by adding brimstone (sulfur). The carcasses of dead animals and the bodies of executed criminals were thrown into the fires of gehenna for disposal along with the rubbish....nothing alive ever went into 'gehenna'. What the flames missed, the maggots finished off....that is why the worms never died, because they always had plenty to feed on.

For Jews, a burial place marked with their name and family lineage was seen as a certainty that God would remember them in the resurrection. (The ancient Jews had no belief in an afterlife.) These ones who were cast into 'gehenna' were not considered worthy of a resurrection, and so would stay in sheol (the grave) forever. Think about it.....everlasting death is the opposite of everlasting life. No passage in the Bible contrasts "heaven or hell" as opposite destinations. No consciousness survives the death of the body. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10)



That may be so...but are they fine with God?



Did you write that?
You are right.....I am unlikely to read something that will take that much time and only give me one person's 'stories' of how things look to them. It doesn't look meaningful to me at all, sorry.



As I said...I have no reason to doubt them. If I believe that God is Almighty (which I do) then he is quite capable of inspiring humans to write accounts about his activities and teachings. If he has ability to create the Universe, why would I doubt his ability to inspire and to preserve his word? Do you place limitations on God?



Who is "they"? "They" is not "me" or my brotherhood. We reject much of what Christendom teaches.....but it doesn't mean that we reject the Bible...we reject Christendom's interpretation of it. There is no trinity...there is no immortal soul...there is no hell....all of these teachings came from paganism, not the Bible.



I have explained my views on that already. You are free to believe whatever you wish, but unless there are others who share your beliefs, what does that make you? Jesus led a movement away from a corrupted religious system and he said that it was going to happen again. Christianity would be corrupted just as Judaism was. When he was to return, he was going to again lead people of all nations out of an equally corrupt religious system. Its the "wheat and the weeds".....remember Jesus' parable?

A spiritual cleansing was necessary....and that is what happened. (Daniel 12:4, 9-10) Those who identify as "Christians" but who hold beliefs contrary to the only scriptures that God inspired, will not be acceptable.....they will face a stinging rejection as those whom Jesus "never knew". (Matthew 7:21-23) What does "never" mean?



If this is how you interpret the Bible...that is your business.....but calling the Bible writers and their believers something from the Devil is not exactly what Jesus did. He accepted the scripture that was available to him as devout Jew. He called none of it into question, so why do you?

The so called "New Testament" is merely a compilation of the life and times of Jesus the Christ, and the ones who carried on his legacy. But after the death of the apostles, the rot set in again, and men took people away from God and on into their own ideas about how to worship. Haven't you done the same thing?

They all said "I think" too.....and look at the result. Total confusion.
The logical way to measure the authenticity of something is to match criteria. But if you have no faith in the criteria how can you possibly measure anything?

You are left to worship your opinion....so where is that going to get you?

If you have no brotherhood....you have no truth....just an opinion.

BTW, my religion is stated quite clearly.

I have my brotherhood with those who believe in the ressurection and judgment and paradise for those judged good (no baby murderers who support baby murderers and say God told them to murder suckling infants) and punishment for the evildoers (like baby murderers and those who support baby murderers and say that God told them to murder suckling infants just because its written in a book, do believe every book tells the truth? Why do believe this book of lies in particular?)

The link I gave you was not some story, it was the clear reasoning given as to explaining what God is, its logic stuff, almost like math, you can skip it though, since you are just bent on holding on to a book for no good reason.

You said: "If he has ability to create the Universe, why would I doubt his ability to inspire and to preserve his word? Do you place limitations on God?"

No, I just don't understand why you think some liar making up lies makes it a true account of things you were not even around for? If some trashy lunatic sits in a hovel and writes "God told me to rape my daughter" are you such a dufus to say "yes, yes, I think it is so". Like, what the heck is wrong with you? Why in the world do you believe them? Why? They are lying, you weren't there, they are saying God told them to kill suckling infant babies, they are LYING can't you get that through your noggin'? Why do you believe these Devils and their lies about God and God's commands? God doesn't command such things, why should you think or believe God commands such things? Only a person who is evil themselves thinks God commanded such things just because its written in a filthy pornographic book of the past, The Bible.

You asked if the believers in God who reject that God ordered the killing of suckling infant babies are:

"That may be so...but are they fine with God? "

Yes, why shouldn't they be? God is going to do something to people who devotedly worship God and reject filthy lies about God like "God commanded people to kill suckling infant babies"? What wacko, twisted beliefs and morality you have? Plus, what is their penalty anyway if they are wrong? Nothing? Oblivion? What the Atheists think?

Give me the full run down on your lunatic fringe heresies and blasphemous notions, you and your "brotherhood" what is their name? How many of you corrupters spreading deception are there?

Lets number you the way your God numbered you:

1 Chronicles 21:1
Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.

Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, “Go, number Israel and Judah.” (2 Samuel 24:1)

Your God, Satan.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Though I call this a call to atheists, I'm delighted to have others chime in...especially those who adhere to alternate lists. (Heck, even FSM's Eight I'd Rather You Didn't afficionados may enjoy the romp.)

Now, let's begin with the fact that there are multiple versions of the Ten Commandments in the Bible.

Greetings. I can only respond to this in terms of a) what is found in Hebrew texts and b) from Jewish Hebrew texts and Jewish history about the texts. So, that being said:

In the Hebrew text found among Torath Mosheh Jews there are two versions of the 10 Commands/Sayings. Version 1: Was what Hashem gave to the generation Israelis/Jews who stood at Mount Sinai and received the Torah and Version 2: Moses's explaination of the 10 Sayings that he was addressing to the generation of Israelis/Jews who were about to enter into the land of Kanaan. In this vesion Moses gave additional details that Hashem gave Moses to that generation. I.e. the reason for their being two versions with slight differences in the wording of some of the saying is becuase two different generations are being addressed at two different times. Also, the second version is more of an explaination with additional detail to a the children of the generation who got the original.

As a side note, the Samaritan Torah has the exact same wording for both mentions of the Ten Sayings/Commands. Their version includes an additional line, which they claim is the 10 and that 1+2 in the Jewish version is actually one. The additional line in their version claims that the Temple was to be built in Shechem on Mount Gerizim.

For instance, the only version that actually says "The Ten Commandments" (Ex 34:1-28) in it doesn't even look a tiny bit like the one that everybody wants to carve in stone outside their legislatures and courthouses, and inscribe on the walls -- or petit-point, for those so inclined.

The reason for this is simple. What is put in front of American buildings is not being quoted from Hebrew texts and is not from Jews. The proponents of putting those statues together and Christians and Christians have their own views about the "Ten Commandments." Also, please note that the Hebrew text makes it clear that the 10 Sayings in the Torah are for the Israeli/Jewish nation who were offered and accepted the entire Torah for themselves and for future generations of Israelis/Jews. It is not something, based on the text and Jewish history, that was commanded for the entire world.

Now, verse 1, of course, isn't a commandment at all. But oddly, neither is verse 2, which Talmud accepts as Commandment 1. But really, it's just a statement of supposed fact, isn't it? So, okay, I'll ease up a bit and say that Commandment 1 is really:

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Actually, without being long winded this is where one would need to default to the Hebrew text and "how" the Hebrew is understood. What I mean is that, for Jews, there is a command to "know" that there is a source of creation. This is what the Hebrew text is getting at with the first of the 10 Sayings/Commands. I.e. it is a mitzvah/command for Jews to know, consider, and verify that there is a source of creation and how the reality that this source created works, to the best of a person's ability. This knowledge includes the knowledge that the entire Torah rests on this point and this also includes a Jew having correct concepts about the source of creation and the reality that we exist in. (Rabbi Mosheh ben-Maimon in his book Guide to the Perplexed wrote that the person who is closest to Hashem is the one who knows Torah along with the various natural sciences, social sciences, math, etc.)

Another way to look at is that it is not a given that there is a source of creation. This is why the Ten Sayings/Commands were given to the entire nation of Israelis/Jews who stood at Mount Sinai directly from the source of creation rather than to just one person who claims that the creator said ABCD and people are forced to either accept or reject it based on the one individual bringing this claim. Yet, if a mass of people witness it then they have to base what they do going forward on a "knowledge" of what happened.

Second, I can't help but notice that verse 5 is in complete contradiction to every civilized notion of justice -- the very idea of punishing the children, grand-children -- all the way to the great-great-grand-children (them's the fourth generation) -- is completely counter to the idea that nobody is punished except for that which they themselves are guilty of.

Again, as you even stated. This is where you have to default to the people who received these commands. I.e. the Israeli/Jewish people and the Hebrew text. This command is not saying that Hashem punishes children for the actions of their parents. The idea that children are punished by the Creator for their ancestors actions is dispelled at various points in the Hebrew Tanakh; one example of this is in the book of Jonah.

What this command is talking about is parents/grandparents who rebel and teach their children/grandchildren to rebel and those children/grandchildren continue in the ways of their parents/grandchildren. For example, a group of parents and grandparents who create a culture of stealing and murder and pass that culture on to their children and their children willingly continue that culture and transmit it to their own children. In a situation like that each generation is guilty based on accepting and transmitting such a culture. If there is a generation that turns away from those actions they are not punished by the creator for this. They are further not punished if internally they are not making the decisions willingly. (In fact, there are Jewish sources that make it clear that the punishment is not actually caused by the creator but instead because of their actions the creator is withholding the good they could have recevied if they were not taking these bad actions.)

YET, we all know of situations where as a result of the actions of parents there are after effects or results that their children may face as challenges. These challengs are not caused by the creator but are instead the natural results of parents whose actions effect their children.

For example, a parent smokes cigerettes all their life and while they are pregnant with their children. Children, potentially, may be born to them with certain health issues. The creator didn't cause this; the parents did. If those children choose not to smoke and commit themselves to healthy living they may be able to overcome the challenges their parents put on them (due to the parents behaviour).

I hope that helps in understanding it from a Torath Mosheh Jewish perspective.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

Greetings. I can only respond to this in terms of a) what is found in Hebrew texts and b) from Jewish Hebrew texts and Jewish history about the texts. So, that being said:

In the Hebrew text found among Torath Mosheh Jews there are two versions of the 10 Commands/Sayings. Version 1: Was what Hashem gave to the generation Israelis/Jews who stood at Mount Sinai and received the Torah and Version 2: Moses's explaination of the 10 Sayings that he was addressing to the generation of Israelis/Jews who were about to enter into the land of Kanaan. In this vesion Moses gave additional details that Hashem gave Moses to that generation. I.e. the reason for their being two versions with slight differences in the wording of some of the saying is becuase two different generations are being addressed at two different times. Also, the second version is more of an explaination with additional detail to a the children of the generation who got the original.

As a side note, the Samaritan Torah has the exact same wording for both mentions of the Ten Sayings/Commands. Their version includes an additional line, which they claim is the 10 and that 1+2 in the Jewish version is actually one. The additional line in their version claims that the Temple was to be built in Shechem on Mount Gerizim.



The reason for this is simple. What is put in front of American buildings is not being quoted from Hebrew texts and is not from Jews. The proponents of putting those statues together and Christians and Christians have their own views about the "Ten Commandments." Also, please note that the Hebrew text makes it clear that the 10 Sayings in the Torah are for the Israeli/Jewish nation who were offered and accepted the entire Torah for themselves and for future generations of Israelis/Jews. It is not something, based on the text and Jewish history, that was commanded for the entire world.



Actually, without being long winded this is where one would need to default to the Hebrew text and "how" the Hebrew is understood. What I mean is that, for Jews, there is a command to "know" that there is a source of creation. This is what the Hebrew text is getting at with the first of the 10 Sayings/Commands. I.e. it is a mitzvah/command for Jews to know, consider, and verify that there is a source of creation and how the reality that this source created works, to the best of a person's ability. This knowledge includes the knowledge that the entire Torah rests on this point and this also includes a Jew having correct concepts about the source of creation and the reality that we exist in. (Rabbi Mosheh ben-Maimon in his book Guide to the Perplexed wrote that the person who is closest to Hashem is the one who knows Torah along with the various natural sciences, social sciences, math, etc.)

Another way to look at is that it is not a given that there is a source of creation. This is why the Ten Sayings/Commands were given to the entire nation of Israelis/Jews who stood at Mount Sinai directly from the source of creation rather than to just one person who claims that the creator said ABCD and people are forced to either accept or reject it based on the one individual bringing this claim. Yet, if a mass of people witness it then they have to base what they do going forward on a "knowledge" of what happened.



Again, as you even stated. This is where you have to default to the people who received these commands. I.e. the Israeli/Jewish people and the Hebrew text. This command is not saying that Hashem punishes children for the actions of their parents. The idea that children are punished by the Creator for their ancestors actions is dispelled at various points in the Hebrew Tanakh; one example of this is in the book of Jonah.

What this command is talking about is parents/grandparents who rebel and teach their children/grandchildren to rebel and those children/grandchildren continue in the ways of their parents/grandchildren. For example, a group of parents and grandparents who create a culture of stealing and murder and pass that culture on to their children and their children willingly continue that culture and transmit it to their own children. In a situation like that each generation is guilty based on accepting and transmitting such a culture. If there is a generation that turns away from those actions they are not punished by the creator for this. They are further not punished if internally they are not making the decisions willingly. (In fact, there are Jewish sources that make it clear that the punishment is not actually caused by the creator but instead because of their actions the creator is withholding the good they could have recevied if they were not taking these bad actions.)

YET, we all know of situations where as a result of the actions of parents there are after effects or results that their children may face as challenges. These challengs are not caused by the creator but are instead the natural results of parents whose actions effect their children.

For example, a parent smokes cigerettes all their life and while they are pregnant with their children. Children, potentially, may be born to them with certain health issues. The creator didn't cause this; the parents did. If those children choose not to smoke and commit themselves to healthy living they may be able to overcome the challenges their parents put on them (due to the parents behaviour).

I hope that helps in understanding it from a Torath Mosheh Jewish perspective.

Please feel free to elaborate more, also on those other commandments mentioned by the original poster, I'm greatly enjoying your insights! Thank you very much for taking the time to write them out, I greatly appreciate it!

 

[Deeje]

Gei Hinnom was understood by some of that Jewish audience to refer to a location in the New World and around the New Jerusalem in the Afterlife mentioned by Isaiah and then also Jesus. In Second Temple Judaism they had an understanding of an afterlife and Gei Hinnom, meaning the Valley or Rift of Bitter Wailing was not the burning garbage dump you may think only, but was used to refer to the concept of the place of punishment and ongoing deaths and destruction. Molech was the "King of the Dead" and Judge of the Dead to the Ancient Semitic Language peoples. You probably won't believe me or study the matterm anyway, but you will find that the Second Temple Jews had a concept of a fiery place of punishment and a New World of the ressurected dead they derived from Isaiah and it was very important to their thinking. It is this real future Hell that is referred to here:
Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna)

Can you read? What does it say? Those in Gehenna are “destroyed” not tortured. The “soul” according to ancient Jewish belief was the whole, living, breathing creature...both man and animal. Both experienced the same death and both went to the same place.....back to the dust, just as God told Adam. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)

Its not Sheol in this verse or talking about a current world dump. You can read about the Jews belief in Hell in the Next World.

Ask yourself if Jesus had a good thing to say about the Jewish religious leaders of his day? Read Matthew 23 and see what high regard he held them in. He said their teachings were like leaven...corrupted. (Matthew 16:5, 11-12) It seems as if you are very selective about what you consider evil or corrupt on God's part.

There is no "hell in the next world". There is only a restoration of this world. The promised resurrection is a return to this life, not heaven (unless you are one of the chosen ones with a “heavenly calling”) and not hell. Those in Gehenna are not alive and neither are those in hades. One group will receive a resurrection, the other will not.This is what the ancient Jews believed. It is what Jesus believed.

My God has no pleasure even in the death of the wicked, (Ezekiel 33:11) let alone torturing them forever....surely that must offend your sensibilities? Will your God do that? And if all the babies of the wicked are left behind when their parents are destroyed by God at the final judgment, then please tell me where I might find such a thing recorded in the Bible? Didn't Jesus say it would be just like the days of Noah? (Matthew 24:37-39) How many babies survived the end of that world? Could you imagine Noah and his family trying to take care of all the animals on the ark, with thousands of infants on board, needing a mother's attention?

Luke 12:5
But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear the One who, after you have been killed, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear Him!

Yes at death one enters sheol (the grave) but if one is sentenced to gehenna, there will be no resurrection for them. It is an eternal state of nothing.....non existence. Why does it need be otherwise?

The Worm Dieth Not business was that they imagined the person to be in a state of constant death, dying, and decay, and suffering, where their decaying and burning never ceases while they experience it. They can't die or cease to experience, but will wish they could!

No, I'm sorry but that is not what Jesus was talking about. Jesus would not have promoted a belief that the Hebrew scriptures do not teach. Tell me where God told Adam he would go? (Genesis 3:19)Here is a man responsible for the death of the entire human race, but all God told him was that he would go back to where he came from......where were you before your parents conceived you? Would it be a big deal to go back there?

Also, the word “Gehenna” is what Jesus used whenever he spoke of “hell” "

He knew exactly what it meant....eternal death. There is no immortal soul. That is a pagan Greek teaching adopted when Greek influence spread out in the world, not only to the Jews but also the early Christians took it on board as well. It is not Biblical. There is no immortal soul in the Bible.

 

[Deeje]

Do you know about the New World and Ressurection or are you just totally a disbeliever in all these concepts and haven't yet discovered their existence in the Old and New Testament?

We believe in the restoration of all the things God planned for this earth in the beginning. That is the new world. He created this earth for us, but the life that was chosen by our forefather Adam separated him and his children from God and took us off on a detour. This is not the life God planned for us. God will give it back to those who qualify by remaining loyal and patiently waiting for the new world that is promised....not a new planet but a new way of life. Everything that makes this life unbearable will be removed. (Revelation 21:2-4) And everything will go back to what it should have been in the beginning. (Isaiah 55:11)

Why are you so deceived by Satan? What denomination is lying to you and deceiving you this much and making you think you are wise?

Oh please.....you could be just as deceived yourself.....read my signature....
Don't you think everyone who holds a belief thinks that they are right? Those whom Jesus confronts at the judgment are so sure that what they did was right.....but they are shocked that he rejects them as those he "never knew"....think about that. It seems to me that you have your very own religion....if no one else shares it, what does that mean? It means that you have no identifiable brotherhood.

I have my brotherhood with those who believe in the ressurection and judgment and paradise for those judged good (no baby murderers who support baby murderers and say God told them to murder suckling infants) and punishment for the evildoers (like baby murderers and those who support baby murderers and say that God told them to murder suckling infants just because its written in a book, do believe every book tells the truth? Why do believe this book of lies in particular?)

Easy...I don't believe that it is a book of lies....you seem to be a bit obsessed with the 'baby murdering' thing....as I said...God can restore life as easily as he takes it. Its not up to us to determine who is in sheol (hades) and who is in gehenna...that is up to God....or don't you trust that he knows what he's doing? (John 5:28-29) Who comes back?

The link I gave you was not some story, it was the clear reasoning given as to explaining what God is, its logic stuff, almost like math, you can skip it though, since you are just bent on holding on to a book for no good reason.

Your arguments are beginning to unravel....I can skip it because its just the writing of a person on the internet...why should I be concerned about what you believe?
You gave me a link to something you wrote..... Who are you....or who do you imagine yourself to be?

You said: "If he has ability to create the Universe, why would I doubt his ability to inspire and to preserve his word? Do you place limitations on God?"

No, I just don't understand why you think some liar making up lies makes it a true account of things you were not even around for? If some trashy lunatic sits in a hovel and writes "God told me to rape my daughter" are you such a dufus to say "yes, yes, I think it is so". Like, what the heck is wrong with you? Why in the world do you believe them? Why? They are lying, you weren't there, they are saying God told them to kill suckling infant babies, they are LYING can't you get that through your noggin'? Why do you believe these Devils and their lies about God and God's commands? God doesn't command such things, why should you think or believe God commands such things? Only a person who is evil themselves thinks God commanded such things just because its written in a filthy pornographic book of the past, The Bible.

I think you need to read what you are writing as this discussion is descending into childishness.

God is going to do something to people who devotedly worship God and reject filthy lies about God like "God commanded people to kill suckling infant babies"? What wacko, twisted beliefs and morality you have? Plus, what is their penalty anyway if they are wrong? Nothing? Oblivion? What the Atheists think?

I believe that for once, the atheists have got it right....being forever dead is punishment enough for anyone, unless you have a god who enjoys torturing people forever in flames with maggots chewing on their flesh....nice god you have there. I like mine better.

Give me the full run down on your lunatic fringe heresies and blasphemous notions, you and your "brotherhood" what is their name? How many of you corrupters spreading deception are there?

Really? You are our judge and jury now? When were you appointed? I thought that was Jesus' job?

Lets number you the way your God numbered you:

1 Chronicles 21:1
Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.

Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, “Go, number Israel and Judah.” (2 Samuel 24:1)

Your God, Satan.

I think we had better leave it there......its enough now. We will leave it all in God's capable hands.....shall we?

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

Can you read? What does it say? Those in Gehenna are “destroyed” not tortured. The “soul” according to ancient Jewish belief was the whole, living, breathing creature...both man and animal. Both experienced the same death and both went to the same place.....back to the dust, just as God told Adam. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)



Ask yourself if Jesus had a good thing to say about the Jewish religious leaders of his day? Read Matthew 23 and see what high regard he held them in. He said their teachings were like leaven...corrupted. (Matthew 16:5, 11-12) It seems as if you are very selective about what you consider evil or corrupt on God's part.

There is no "hell in the next world". There is only a restoration of this world. The promised resurrection is a return to this life, not heaven (unless you are one of the chosen ones with a “heavenly calling”) and not hell. Those in Gehenna are not alive and neither are those in hades. One group will receive a resurrection, the other will not.This is what the ancient Jews believed. It is what Jesus believed.

My God has no pleasure even in the death of the wicked, (Ezekiel 33:11) let alone torturing them forever....surely that must offend your sensibilities? Will your God do that? And if all the babies of the wicked are left behind when their parents are destroyed by God at the final judgment, then please tell me where I might find such a thing recorded in the Bible? Didn't Jesus say it would be just like the days of Noah? (Matthew 24:37-39) How many babies survived the end of that world? Could you imagine Noah and his family trying to take care of all the animals on the ark, with thousands of infants on board, needing a mother's attention?



Yes at death one enters sheol (the grave) but if one is sentenced to gehenna, there will be no resurrection for them. It is an eternal state of nothing.....non existence. Why does it need be otherwise?



No, I'm sorry but that is not what Jesus was talking about. Jesus would not have promoted a belief that the Hebrew scriptures do not teach. Tell me where God told Adam he would go? (Genesis 3:19)Here is a man responsible for the death of the entire human race, but all God told him was that he would go back to where he came from......where were you before your parents conceived you? Would it be a big deal to go back there?



He knew exactly what it meant....eternal death. There is no immortal soul. That is a pagan Greek teaching adopted when Greek influence spread out in the world, not only to the Jews but also the early Christians took it on board as well. It is not Biblical. There is no immortal soul in the Bible.

I can read, and thats why there are other verses which seemed to give the Second Temple Jews the notion that this was not annhilation but an ongoing suffering, as annihilation was considered insufficient and an easy escape from suffering. So they had the notion that people would live in a kind of ongoing state of torturous living death. You can read about it, its not some greatly concealed knowledge that there were Second Temple Jews who believed in such a hell based on Daniel, Isaiah, as well as popular interpretations from around the time of Jesus. The destruction or harming was considered by them to be ongoing as the other verses combined speak of ongoing or eternal states.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

We believe in the restoration of all the things God planned for this earth in the beginning. That is the new world. He created this earth for us, but the life that was chosen by our forefather Adam separated him and his children from God and took us off on a detour. This is not the life God planned for us. God will give it back to those who qualify by remaining loyal and patiently waiting for the new world that is promised....not a new planet but a new way of life. Everything that makes this life unbearable will be removed. (Revelation 21:2-4) And everything will go back to what it should have been in the beginning. (Isaiah 55:11)



Oh please.....you could be just as deceived yourself.....read my signature....
Don't you think everyone who holds a belief thinks that they are right? Those whom Jesus confronts at the judgment are so sure that what they did was right.....but they are shocked that he rejects them as those he "never knew"....think about that. It seems to me that you have your very own religion....if no one else shares it, what does that mean? It means that you have no identifiable brotherhood.



Easy...I don't believe that it is a book of lies....you seem to be a bit obsessed with the 'baby murdering' thing....as I said...God can restore life as easily as he takes it. Its not up to us to determine who is in sheol (hades) and who is in gehenna...that is up to God....or don't you trust that he knows what he's doing? (John 5:28-29) Who comes back?



Your arguments are beginning to unravel....I can skip it because its just the writing of a person on the internet...why should I be concerned about what you believe?
You gave me a link to something you wrote..... Who are you....or who do you imagine yourself to be?



I think you need to read what you are writing as this discussion is descending into childishness.



I believe that for once, the atheists have got it right....being forever dead is punishment enough for anyone, unless you have a god who enjoys torturing people forever in flames with maggots chewing on their flesh....nice god you have there. I like mine better.


Really? You are our judge and jury now? When were you appointed? I thought that was Jesus' job?



I think we had better leave it there......its enough now. We will leave it all in God's capable hands.....shall we?

I'd still like to learn the full array of your beliefs and the name of your particular congregation ir brotherhood as I'd like to look them up as well.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I have a big picture and I can see where everything fits in with God’s original purpose....why do you think we are here? What is the purpose of human existence? What does the future hold? Can you answer these questions and back them up with scripture?

Alrighty then! Lay it on us. What, exactly, is "God's original purpose?" What is the purpose of human existence, and whose purpose is it, if not their own? What does the future hold?

But why back it up with scripture? Scripture said, quite plainly, that all that would play out 2,000 years ago, but it didn't. So back it up with something a bit more reliable.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

As a reminder to some long-winded posters -- this thread is about the Ten Commandments, not an overview of anybody's version of Christianity.

 

[Deeje]

Alrighty then! Lay it on us. What, exactly, is "God's original purpose?" What is the purpose of human existence, and whose purpose is it, if not their own? What does the future hold?

But why back it up with scripture? Scripture said, quite plainly, that all that would play out 2,000 years ago, but it didn't. So back it up with something a bit more reliable.

Without scripture there are no answers to any questions. There is no reason for our existence and no point to it either.

So according to Genesis, God’s original purpose was to have humans to represent him on this earth as caretakers and zookeepers, endowed with God’s attributes and moral qualities so as to represent him effectively, with free will so as to be able to make decisions and know how to implement them in their assignment.

The humans were told to “fill the earth and subdue it”.....they got to accomplish the first part of that mandate, but not the second part because that would have meant extending the borders of their paradise home until the whole earth looked like Eden. Taking the path of independence prevented them from ever accomplishing that. Instead of paradise, we have an earth on the brink of annihilation. The doomsday clock is closer to midnight now, than at any other time in modern history.

Read Genesis and see for yourself what God had in mind. Living forever was to be enjoyed here on earth with no need or desire to go anywhere else. God provided the blueprint as well as the means to preserve their lives here forever. There was no natural cause of death ever mentioned. Only disobedience would result in death.

Since God by his very nature finishes what he starts, (Isaiah 55:11) all things must return to his first purpose to have the earth inhabited by a race of humans who can comply with our ‘Landlord’s’ wishes, according to the rules of our tenancy. Every need will be freely satisfied in magnificent surroundings, as long as we carry out our assignment to the best of our ability. It required obedience to his rules but it meant no hardship.

The future does not look dismal to Christians.... this earth will get a make-over and a population who can serve the interests of the Creator whilst enjoying the beautiful home he has provided for us.

To me there is nothing more reliable than the Bible. Everything it has foretold has come true. Christ’s return will bring everything back to the way it should be....that is what God’s kingdom will accomplish.....God’s will can then be “done on earth as it is in heaven”....that is why it’s “good news”. (Matthew 24:14)

 

[Deeje]

I'd still like to learn the full array of your beliefs and the name of your particular congregation ir brotherhood as I'd like to look them up as well.

https://www.jw.org/en/

This is our official website. Because we do not comply with the teachings of Christendom, we often receive the same treatment that was meted out to Jesus and his apostles....(John 15:18-21)

We follow all of Jesus’ teachings, not just the convenient ones.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

That's what you think... the commandments make sense. Even if there is no God, having Him in your corner will help you manage.

And how does that relate to "right vs. wrong?" You're really not answering any of my questions, you know. Just commenting in tangentially related ways.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

https://www.jw.org/en/

This is our official website. Because we do not comply with the teachings of Christendom, we often receive the same treatment that was meted out to Jesus and his apostles....(John 15:18-21)

We follow all of Jesus’ teachings, not just the convenient ones.

Thank you very much! I appreciate it. So your views are standard Jehovah's Witness type views? Do Jehovah's Witness members drink alcohol? How long have you been a member? How did you join? Do you find yourself overworked, not appreciated, stifled, with your ability to express your own interests not really supported? Do you have side interests and hobbies or like anything outside of the JW stuff which you have to sort of keep on the down low because you don't want the others to find out and gossip or correct you or take it away from you?

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

As a reminder to some long-winded posters -- this thread is about the Ten Commandments, not an overview of anybody's version of Christianity.

Haha yeah, sorry, those messages or replies can go to my inbox.

Have we decided which ten commandments set to deal with?

Here are two things which I'm not sure have been mentioned yet (Egyptian Negative Confessions):
The Negative Confession

The 42 Commandments of Ancient Egypt

Trinicenter.com - Dr. Kwame Nantambu - Real Origin of the Ten Commandments

Hammurabi Code:
Hammurabi's Code: An Eye for an Eye [ushistory.org]

http://www.wright.edu/~christopher.oldstone-moore/Hamm.htm

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

And how does that relate to "right vs. wrong?" You're really not answering any of my questions, you know. Just commenting in tangentially related ways.

The Ten Commandments are a good lesson for writing better briefs

 

[robocop (actually)]

And how does that relate to "right vs. wrong?" You're really not answering any of my questions, you know. Just commenting in tangentially related ways.

All I'm trying to say is that the 10 commandments aren't a filthy wash rag OK? I don't believe the first commandment should be used as a gateway for government to deny people religious recognition.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

The Ten Commandments are a good lesson for writing better briefs

Hmmm... I don't think the question is about their brevity, or even quality of writing. It's the content many find problems with.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

Hmmm... I don't think the question is about their brevity, or even quality of writing. It's the content many find problems with.

Lol yeah, and that article was a meta-joke thing, since you said "Tangential" replies about the commandments, so I made a tangential reply with a tangential topic in a tangential article which tangentially uses the commandments to talk about the tangential topic of legal briefs or something.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

All I'm trying to say is that the 10 commandments aren't a filthy wash rag OK? I don't believe the first commandment should be used as a gateway for government to deny people religious recognition.

I don't know who might have suggested such a thing, but I certainly did not. While I have no religion, I have never objected to anyone else having theirs, so long as they also respect my right to be free of it.

I'll give you an example from my past: when I was much younger, living in Toronto, in what then used to be called "Ontario the Good" (because we were so darned Christian and nice!), every Saturday night at midnight precisely, everybody who was out enjoying a few pints and some friendly company was summarily tossed out onto the streets, and nothing -- literally nothing -- was open all of Sunday. And that was precisely to encourage me, and everybody like me, to go to church.

Of course, there were a lot of Jews in Toronto at the time (they had most of the money and lived in Forest Hill in big, beautiful homes), but nobody thought of shutting down for their Sabbath, and certainly nobody thought it could be reasonable for a Jew to open his store on Sunday! My goodness, no!

Now, it is also interesting that all of Toronto's (and Ontario's) best parks and recreational facilities were so over-crowded on the weekend there was no place to lie down. You could only suntan the top of your head and shoulders, while Monday to Friday all that valuable recreational space was essentially empty.

It took a long time -- time during which I detested weekends -- for Toronto to grow up and get over being shut down by Christians who decided they ruled and everybody else obeyed.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

I don't know who might have suggested such a thing, but I certainly did not. While I have no religion, I have never objected to anyone else having theirs, so long as they also respect my right to be free of it.

I'll give you an example from my past: when I was much younger, living in Toronto, in what then used to be called "Ontario the Good" (because we were so darned Christian and nice!), every Saturday night at midnight precisely, everybody who was out enjoying a few pints and some friendly company was summarily tossed out onto the streets, and nothing -- literally nothing -- was open all of Sunday. And that was precisely to encourage me, and everybody like me, to go to church.

Of course, there were a lot of Jews in Toronto at the time (they had most of the money and lived in Forest Hill in big, beautiful homes), but nobody thought of shutting down for their Sabbath, and certainly nobody thought it could be reasonable for a Jew to open his store on Sunday! My goodness, no!

Now, it is also interesting that all of Toronto's (and Ontario's) best parks and recreational facilities were so over-crowded on the weekend there was no place to lie down. You could only suntan the top of your head and shoulders, while Monday to Friday all that valuable recreational space was essentially empty.

It took a long time -- time during which I detested weekends -- for Toronto to grow up and get over being shut down by Christians who decided they ruled and everybody else obeyed.

Is Toronto, the place of my miraculous birth, better now?