Nothing gets past you.Sophistry, pure sophistry. You're just playing with words!
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A call to atheists...let's have at the Ten Commandments
- Thread starter Evangelicalhumanist
- Start date
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
If I'm not mistaken, I think the OP was comparing it to the U.S. constitution rather than the NT. I didn't get a confirmation, but that's what it sounded like from reading it a few times.
Emsy, I am firmly of the belief that if you wish to live not only a moral life -- but also a GOOD and WORTHWHILE one -- you need something a whole lot more sophisticated than the 10 Commandments. (In fact, you need a whole lot more than the Bible, but that was too big a topic to tackle in one go. And that goes, by the way, for other religious texts with which I'm familiar. I won't discourse on texts that I don't know.)
And yet, in the US today, debate still rages on about whether the 10 Commandments should have prominence of place where laws are made, and where laws are tested, and that they should be part of the education of children in moral values -- as should the rest of the Bible.
I will be posting more in this thread (I haven't completed my own discourse on the Commandments yet, having gotten only to number 5. If you read what I write, you may learn something more about how I think. If you don't, well, no matter, since what I think is likely not all that important to you anyway.
Before I move on to Commandment Number 6, I have one more commandment on the first 5. I remember once, watching a program on CNN with Christiane Amanpour, and she was interviewing a young girl, probably about 7 or 8 years old, in the Bible Belt. At one point, Amanpour asked this child if she had schoolmates who belonged to other religions, like Judaism, Hinduism, or such, and the girl answered, "yes." And when Amanpour asked what does God think of them, she answered, with the most pure face ever, "they go to hell." And went right back to her drawing.
Now, I have to say, I thought that this child had been taught something deeply, deeply immoral -- to think less of people not quite like her because, well, because her God doesn't.
Now, I have to say, I thought that this child had been taught something deeply, deeply immoral -- to think less of people not quite like her because, well, because her God doesn't.
I believe he is but I don't see where there is a comparison which was my point. He wan't to know if they are compatible. So, my point is basically the Constitution is compatible in that it allows for faith to flourish even if it is the OT.
Sorry, but who died and made you God?
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
There we go. Ahh... I feel so much better now. I'd imagine you do also, eh?
Oh, however shall I find the wit to respond to such eloquence?
But for the record, I'm discussing Talmud, written by a people who encourage robust argument over its contents, in a forum dedicated to religious debate. You are, of course, encouraged to avoid all content with it, if it offends you.
Picture this: in the same Rotunda of the National Archives, where sits the original Constitution and Bill of Rights, let us also put the 2 Tablets of the 10 Commandments (they'll have to be replicas, I'm afraid...the originals were misplaced). Thus, we are making these things co-equal in the establishment of the fundamental laws of the United States. Therefore, it should be accepted that they apply equally to all Americans, would you agree?
Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)
613 commandments - Wikipedia
Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 34:1-28 - New International Version
Exodus 34:1-28
New International Version
The New Stone Tablets
34 YHWH said to Moses, “Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke. 2 Be ready in the morning, and then come up on Mount Sinai. Present yourself to me there on top of the mountain. 3 No one is to come with you or be seen anywhere on the mountain;not even the flocks and herds may graze in front of the mountain.”
4 So Moses chiseled out two stone tablets like the first ones and went up Mount Sinai early in the morning, as YHWH had commanded him; and he carried the two stone tablets in his hands. 5 Then YHWH came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, YHWH. 6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “YHWH, YHWH, the compassionate and gracious EL, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.”
8 Moses bowed to the ground (way yiqqod 'arsah) at once and worshiped (way yistahu). 9 “Adonay” he said, “if I have found favor / grace (hen) in your sight / view (be'eneka), then let Adonay go with us. Although this is a stiff-necked people, forgive our wickedness and our sin, and take us as your inheritance.”
10 Then YHWH said: “I am making a covenant with you. Before all your people I will do wonders never before done in any nation in all the world. The people you live among will see how awesome is the work that I, YHWH, will do for you. 11 Obey what I command you today.
(0)I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites.
12 (1)Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you.
13 (2)Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles.
14 (3)Do not worship any other god('el), for YHWH, whose name is Jealous (Qanna, Qanna-EL), is a jealous God (EL).
15 (1)“Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices.
16 And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same.
17 (4)“Do not make any idols.
18 (5)“Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Aviv, for in that month you came out of Egypt.
19 “The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock.
20 (6)Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons.
“No one is to appear before me empty-handed.
21 (7)“Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.
22 (5)“Celebrate the Festival of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Festival of Ingathering at the turn of the year.
23 (9)Three times a year all your men are to appear before HA ADON YHWH, ELOHE YISRAEL
24 (0)I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your territory, and no one will covet your land when you go up three times each year to appear before YHWH your EL.
25 (10)“Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast,and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Festival remain until morning.
26 (6)“Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of YHWH your EL.
(10)“Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk.”
27 Then YHWH said to Moses, “Writedown these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”
28 Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water.And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.
The 613 Commandments (Mitzvot)
613 commandments - Wikipedia
Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 34:1-28 - New International Version
Exodus 34:1-28
New International Version
The New Stone Tablets
34 YHWH said to Moses, “Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke. 2 Be ready in the morning, and then come up on Mount Sinai. Present yourself to me there on top of the mountain. 3 No one is to come with you or be seen anywhere on the mountain;not even the flocks and herds may graze in front of the mountain.”
4 So Moses chiseled out two stone tablets like the first ones and went up Mount Sinai early in the morning, as YHWH had commanded him; and he carried the two stone tablets in his hands. 5 Then YHWH came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, YHWH. 6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “YHWH, YHWH, the compassionate and gracious EL, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.”
8 Moses bowed to the ground (way yiqqod 'arsah) at once and worshiped (way yistahu). 9 “Adonay” he said, “if I have found favor / grace (hen) in your sight / view (be'eneka), then let Adonay go with us. Although this is a stiff-necked people, forgive our wickedness and our sin, and take us as your inheritance.”
10 Then YHWH said: “I am making a covenant with you. Before all your people I will do wonders never before done in any nation in all the world. The people you live among will see how awesome is the work that I, YHWH, will do for you. 11 Obey what I command you today.
(0)I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites.
12 (1)Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you.
13 (2)Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles.
14 (3)Do not worship any other god('el), for YHWH, whose name is Jealous (Qanna, Qanna-EL), is a jealous God (EL).
15 (1)“Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices.
16 And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same.
17 (4)“Do not make any idols.
18 (5)“Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Aviv, for in that month you came out of Egypt.
19 “The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock.
20 (6)Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons.
“No one is to appear before me empty-handed.
21 (7)“Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.
22 (5)“Celebrate the Festival of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Festival of Ingathering at the turn of the year.
23 (9)Three times a year all your men are to appear before HA ADON YHWH, ELOHE YISRAEL
24 (0)I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your territory, and no one will covet your land when you go up three times each year to appear before YHWH your EL.
25 (10)“Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast,and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Festival remain until morning.
26 (6)“Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of YHWH your EL.
(10)“Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk.”
27 Then YHWH said to Moses, “Writedown these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”
28 Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water.And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.
The 613 Commandments (Mitzvot)
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I did, in fact, mention this in the OP. There are a couple of really fascinating things about it, if one cares to pay a bit of attention.
First, this version actually says "the Ten Commandments" (in verse 28), which both the usually accepted versions do not. That in itself is an interesting fact, and leads me to wonder they other two are accepted as being what the Bible itself says is this version.
Then one has to notice that verses 27 and 28 also make it clear that we are talking about the very same "interview" between God and Moses that the other versions allude to. Thus making clear that this list is also supposed to be a faithful record of the law given to Moses on the mountain.
And then you look at the list of laws themselves, discover they look absolutely nothing like the version everybody pictures on Tablets and wants outside their legislatures and courthouses, and inside their classrooms. The list even ends with what one must assume is important, not to cook a young goat in its mother's milk!
(Now that last leaves open a couple of other questions: is it okay to cook an old goat in its mother's milk? Is it okay to cook a young one in some other goat's milk? Or perhaps in cow's milk?)
Its thanks to you and your mentioning it in your original post that I looked it up. Now I will tell everyone that these are the 10 commandments they regularly fail to follow!
I also will show other religious people the concept of God here, and how YHWH very clearly seems to be described as a bodily figure which in the Second Temple Period some took to be a "Second Power in Heaven".
I think that I'd probably not cook a goat in its own mother's milk no matter the age of the goat, but find it Kosher or Halal to cook a goat in milk.
I enjoy "goat curry" which may at time have dairy involved. I also wonder if that goat business is just in general or about offerings, but I'll take it as general.
The way it jumps around and is disorderly seeming is very jarring, even in the case of the usual ten commandments.
You've armed me with something magnificent though, something I can use as a great tool and weapon in several ways by bringing up these verses.
I have always had a hatred for YHWH due to how YHWH is described and behaves, the whole concept, just like my hatred for the New Testament Jesus (who the LDS Mormons say is One and the Same Person, that Jesus is YHWH, The Father is Elohim a bodily man born of parents who Brigham Young suggested was Adam but others rejected, and the Holy Spirit is a Bodiless Ghost similar to Demons who are Bodiless and Satan who remains without a Body).
Now, in reading this again, I have a renewed hatred of YHWH and the the Bible.
I now also see again why both Atheists and Christians seem to think of the concept of God as a literal cartoony humanoid on the clouds, because it absolutely says so and gives it so much detail which makes it quite hard to say it didnt say so or didn't mean it.
To hell with that God concept, yuck!
Though, admittedly, if any super human humanoid alien came down and basically threatened to blow me up if I don't grovel, I'd grovel, because I would be very afraid and not want to die or suffer, not knowing what the alien freak is capable of.
Though, luckily, no such alien freaks are around currently, so I can say Fie to you YHWH you big puff!
YHWH is as described in these sorts of stories is incredibly inferior to some other models of God, I can say with confidence now that whoever takes this story as true and literal in all these details and takes God as a formed being coming down on a cloud and walking around, has a completely different belief system, and I think they are crazy and foolish and wonder how they could be so sick as to ever believe such a disturbing and cartoony thing or why they would ever worship such a literal creature? Perhaps because they are afraid of it and don't have any better concept with which to feel confident in?
I am so grateful I was not indoctrinated to fear this book.
Since you whole OP is about the 10 Commandments, if you don’t believe the Biblical history that was responsible for producing them, then what is the point of this thread?
If you give no consideration to the reason why these laws were given, then why criticise them?
Think of the rednecks in your own Bible Belt....whose children are taught by parents and grandparents to look down on anyone who is religiously or politically in opposition to them.....it’s the same thing. When children are raised in an environment that cultures bigotry, racism, religiously motivated hatred and at times violence, it’s a hard mindset to root out because they have been schooled in the idea that God supports it. Nothing could be further from the truth.
But just as the Bible shows, an individual with the right heart motivation can rise above their upbringing and indoctrination. Parental example, (or role modelling) though it can leave scars on the psyche, can be overcome with a love of the truth, rather than a need to comply with the status quo.
Those who seek God with the right motive will find him....those who throw him away because of what humans (rather than the Bible) have said about him in ignorance, will have the freedom to do that too.
As one who sees the heart and what motivates people, God not only sees what a person does, but more importantly why they do it. Kids are like sponges, they absorb what is around them and they are innocent and trusting.....but they learn what they live.
Giving parents the responsibility for raising their own children in the way they wish is surely not something that most parents would argue against. But it works both ways. Would you like God to take children away from their parents because they are not teaching them about him? Free will is the ability to make those choices. God is not a tyrannical despot who can’t wait to punish people....he gives everyone the same opportunity to get to know him....but only if they want to. But kids, if they are going to be spiritual, despite parental protestations, will grow up and be who they are. They will search for God because it’s a hard wired inclination in humans to seek purpose to their existence and to worship a higher power.
Some Christian parents will produce atheists and vice versa. People can’t basically change their nature...it has to have been there all along. If there is a good heart, I believe that God knows it.....but the one thing God has always asked of his children is obedience......he never said he was going to save “good” people....he will save those who can trust him enough to obey him in all things. We as a race have proven that we can’t trust ourselves or each other.
Emsy
Member
LOL
Criticizing the ten commandments is hardly an exercise in "seeing things from a different perspective".
They've been ridiculed for centuries in a modern context; they've been dissected for millennia in a historical one.
Your assertion that this thread is somehow groundbreaking material is absolutely hysterical.
McBell
mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
I am curious which post you think makes the claim of "ground breaking".
Emsy
Member
In the exact quote that I posted, he stated that criticism of the Ten Commandments would lead to "get people to see things from a different perspective."
As if overwhelming ridicule of religion in general is such a new thing.
Exactly. The principles of the law were reiterated by Jesus. What he taught became a matter of conscience, rather than law.
When Jesus made the statements in Matthew ch 5 he mixed together references to the Ten Commandments and other parts of the Law, making no distinction between them. If he did not treat them differently, why would we?
How did Jesus fulfil the law? He became the ultimate sacrifice and cancelled out all the blood sacrifices for those who accepted him as their redeemer. He did not cancel the principles upon which the Law was based, but reiterated God’s laws on thievery, adultery and love of neighbor. He changed how the law applied by giving only two laws to govern Christian behavior.
When Jesus was asked, “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” He did not isolate the Ten Commandments, but he replied: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ This is the greatest and first commandment. The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”
The entire law was based on love....love of God and love of neighbor, so conscience now became the arbiter of a Christian’s conduct. Whatever a person did, if it violated either or both of those two laws, it was unacceptable to God. A troubled conscience would usually be enough for a genuine follower of Christ to seek forgiveness and repent. That was so much better than trying to police and impose penalties for those who were spread out in all nations on earth. Christians should be able to self police and self regulate. First century Congregations had a body of elders who could keep an eye on things and to reinforce all the things that Jesus taught and did and to correct any who wanted to deviate.
Exodus 3:16-17...
“The Israelites must keep the Sabbath; they must observe the Sabbath during all their generations. It is a lasting covenant. 17 It is an enduring sign between me and the people of Israel”.
When Gentiles were invited into Christianity, the law made a separation between the two very different (both culturally and spiritually) groups, so Ephesians 2:13-16 brings out.......
“But now in union with Christ Jesus, you who were once far off have come to be near by the blood of the Christ. 14 For he is our peace, the one who made the two groups one and destroyed the wall in between that fenced them off. 15 By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, in order to make the two groups in union with himself into one new man and to make peace, 16 and to reconcile fully both peoples in one body to God through the torture stake, because he had killed off the enmity by means of himself.”
So it makes sense to understand why the law was replaced without altering its principles. There was never a requirement for Gentiles to observe the Sabbath. Jews even today can observe it if they wish, but it is not required.
After all of our discussions here, I'm amazed you still can't figure that out.Since you whole OP is about the 10 Commandments, if you don’t believe the Biblical history that was responsible for producing them, then what is the point of this thread?
If you give no consideration to the reason why these laws were given, then why criticise them?
Look at my handle: Evangelicalhumanist. Can you unpack that? The first part is from Greek εὐαγγελιστής: eu meaning good, and aggelistés meaning news bringer, or messenger of news (from which angel).That's followed by the perfectly ordinary word "humanist," which describes someone who is generally concered with humans, as opposed to being focused on gods.
So, for someone like me, is there something other than terror of divine punishment that can serve as a beacon to guide my way? Yes! I am skeptical of untested claims to knowledge and certainty -- usually in the form of religious dogma. I am open to new ideas, and new ways to think about what it means to be human. I believe in optimism, hope, learning, rather than pessism, despair and dogma.
In other words, I am unshakeably convinced that there are better ways to find our own humanity, and how we must all be humans together, than what I've ever seen in religion.
God is not a tyrannical despot who can’t wait to punish people....he gives everyone the same opportunity to get to know him....but only if they want to. But kids, if they are going to be spiritual, despite parental protestations, will grow up and be who they are. They will search for God because it’s a hard wired inclination in humans to seek purpose to their existence and to worship a higher power.
......he never said he was going to save “good” people....he will save those who can trust him enough to obey him in all things. We as a race have proven that we can’t trust ourselves or each other.
"
Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation. "
Can you possibly scroll up to my post above?
I think that punishing children and grand children to the third and fourth generation is soundly and comprehensibly unjust, don't you think so?
I can't help but notice that you have equated the words "criticism" and "ridicule." They are not the same, you know. And supposing they are is not going advance any thoughtful analysis.