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is Christmas Pagan?

exchemist

Veteran Member
Could not find my old thread so I had to put it up again Merry Christmas.
Obviously not, seeing as it is a traditional commemoration of the birth of Our Lord.

Everyone knows there were pagan winter festivals when Christianity started and that these were were converted, along with the pagans themselves, to Christianity. We don't ask, all the time, whether we are still pagans, just because our ancestors were, so I don't see why we should ask this question about the festival, just because its ancestor was pagan.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
Easter (pascha) is linked to the Jewish passover (pesach).

Easter was remarked by bede to be named after the Eostre goddess. He was living in a time where paganism was a very recent memory or possibly something were doing down the street from him, so he would have known

Halloween also has Christian roots.

It's the celtic new year, heavily linked to the seasons, which an eastern religion like christianity didn't have much in the way of where it began

agans already had the sign of the hammer when they were converted, so getting them to adopt this new motion was a bit of a challenge.

conversly, it's also possible that the similarity between the cross and the Mjölnir symbol made for an easier transition.. I'm not sure though
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
The first "Christmas" was celebrated in 336. As for the date, it's arbitrary, just a date chosen close to the pagan winter celebrations of winter solstice, the time to rejoice at the turning of winter and rebirth of the land. I guess the date is more a 'join our club and you can still have the most important festival in your calendar, just a few days later'
 
Easter was remarked by bede to be named after the Eostre goddess. He was living in a time where paganism was a very recent memory or possibly something were doing down the street from him, so he would have known

Easter wasn't invented in the English speaking world though and most languages use a derivative of pascha/pesach. North-west Europe was pretty much irrelevant to Early Christianity.

At best it explains the etymology of the English/German term for pascha. Even this is dubious though as, other than Bede, no one ever mentions Eostre, so we don't even know if she really 'existed' as on object of veneration. Alternative etymologies have also been proposed.
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
Could not find my old thread so I had to put it up again Merry Christmas.

The winter solstice celebration goes back to ancient times, well before Christ or Christmas.

Saturnalia was a holiday celebrated by ancient Romans in honor of Saturn, the god of agriculture that occurred on or about the solstice.

There are other holidays such as Yule (Norse) and Inti Raymi (Incan) that are celebrations surrounding the sun and its desired return and were celebrated on or around the solstice.

Is Christmas pagan? No. It's Christian. But the winter solstice celebration is, indeed, pagan, and one could easily conclude that Christmas falls where it is as a way for Christians to facilitate conversion from pagan beliefs.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
Easter wasn't invented in the English speaking world though and most languages use a derivative of pascha/pesach. North-west Europe was pretty much irrelevant to Early Christianity.

At best it explains the etymology of the English/German term for pascha. Even this is dubious though as, other than Bede, no one ever mentions Eostre, so we don't even know if she really 'existed' as on object of veneration. Alternative etymologies have also been proposed.

If you want to argue etymology, then there's probably more to write about it than just that. In trying to find an indo-european root to this easter word, read the short etymology section here for example: Ushas - Wikipedia. And if you're wondering why I'm linking an article to a god in the rig veda, well I guess that's where indo-european etymologists seem to go to a lot, though I'm no expert on the whys. I had read a good amount of the rig veda, and did find some curious things.. like how the horse twins (ashvins) might be related to the old english gods hengist and horsa who are twin horse gods, or how their fire god agni seems to be related to the english word ignite

To me it sort of makes sense if the name is related to a sunrise, and this is something northern people would have obviously associated with spring. It would be nice to converse with an etymologist, but I don't know there is one here or not. So we can see that Eos and Aurora, which appear as etymologically related to Easter, are associated with dawn, and that would be an easy leap to spring.. so what more proof to you need. I'll get around to reading more folklore about easter eventually as well, and probably have more to argue with in the future
 
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SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
...except for the loneliness part and me being single I hate that.

It's all about perspective and expectations. I've been single for several years. Sure, if I look back at some Christmases past and time spent with significant others, children, etc. and long to revisit them, I can easily fall into the trap of loneliness.

But I now look back on these as experiences I loved and wouldn't trade off for anything, but I look forward with excitement at my freedom to experience these holidays however I see fit and of how I can bring joy to others as they had brought joy to me in Christmases past.
 

Erebus

Well-Known Member
It's a bit more complicated than Christmas being a Pagan tradition with a veneer of Christianity slapped on top. Cultures and their practices tend to evolve and merge over time so determining the exact influences can be tricky. You can certainly look at some of the Pagan winter festivals and spot some practices that roughly correlate with modern ones. However, if you're looking at the formation of what we now think of as Christmas, you pretty much have to include Christian influences. You also have to take into account the more secular aspects too.

Christmas isn't a Pagan festival that the Christians stole and renamed, even if you're talking about what we might call the Christmas season rather than just the 25th of December. It developed over time with multiple influences manifesting in different ways. Even today, Christmas practices have a fair bit of regional variation. One example that often gets brought up to demonstrate this (which I'm bringing up now because I love it) is Krampus. You don't really see Krampus in English and American celebrations of Christmas* but he still makes an appearance in parts of Europe.

Another complicating factor is that a great deal of pre-Christian European stories and practices were passed on through oral tradition. Most of the actual written accounts of them come from much later on and were typically written by Christians, not Pagans. The extent to which those practices were altered to better fit a Christian viewpoint is debatable though there are a couple of clear examples in which a Christian interpretation is very obvious. The legendary accounts of Saint Patrick demonstrating miracles to the Devil-worshipping druids is one such example.



*As I wrote that, I decided to do a quick google search for Krampus and discovered that he's starting to appear a little more these days. Again, cultures evolve and merge over time.
 
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sooda

Veteran Member
Have you done any research? First of all Jews did not celebrate birthdays because of their connection with astrology. It was part of the conditions of entry into the Promised Land. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)

Secondly, Jesus was not born in December. And the customs of "Christmas" have nothing whatever to do with the birth of Christ....every one of them is pagan in origin, including the festive season of the god in whose honor it was held. (Mithra)

The so called "wise men" were Babylonian astrologers who followed a star that led them to a jealous King who, when he heard of the birth of a new King, murdered all the infants 2 years of age and under in an attempt to protect his own dynasty. Only after they had alerted Herod did the star lead them to the Christ child. They were never at the stable and the star was not from God.

Lambing season in Palestine is in late December thru January.

Astrology is meaningless. .. The other Canaanite tribes were prosperous and settled all over Sinai and Canaan.. They paid tribute to Pharaoh. Deuteronomy was written during the Babylonian exile... They are just trashing the neighbors again. We have learned a lot about since them discovery of the Ugaritic tablets.

Herod didn't kill all the boys under two. That's another myth starts with the slaughter of innocents.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The dating of Christmas to 25 Dec actually had nothing to do with Pagan festivals. There wasn't one on the 25th (I'm aware of the Sol Invictus argument. It's wrong) .

Ironically the idea it was pagan was popularised in Protestant anti-Catholic polemics.

It likely dates to the early 3rd century, based on Christian theological calculations.

If I have some time I'll post some of the scholarly sources that outline this. There's a lot of bad information on the Internet on this topic.

Sol Invictus being on the 25th is not really the issue, because there were at least several celebrations in Rome around the Winter Solstice. Christians did adopt European and Roman traditions of celebrations around the Winter Solstice. Yes, Christian theological calculations played a role, but Christian calculations are based on the assumption that Mary was conceived on March 25th, and this is unknown, and a traditional belief. There are different arguments that place the birth of Jesus in the spring. .

The nature of Christian beliefs as a whole is the merging and mixing of religious and cultural attributes of the Middle East and Rome.
 
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ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
We give gifts, sing, feast, drink, do a little kissing under the mistletoe...

All very pagan things that speak to the primal spirit in all of us.

Our celebration starts in 2 days and lasts to the 23rd. We have, over the years done several mid winter celebrations, education for the kids. They have now decreed that we adopt Saturnalia as out family winter fete, for no other mercenary reasons than, they get more presents and on 23rd, one of them (chosen by lot) becomes king/queen of the house for a day and can get away with taking wild liberties.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
The dating of Christmas to 25 Dec actually had nothing to do with Pagan festivals. There wasn't one on the 25th (I'm aware of the Sol Invictus argument. It's wrong) .

Ironically the idea it was pagan was popularised in Protestant anti-Catholic polemics.

It likely dates to the early 3rd century, based on Christian theological calculations.

If I have some time I'll post some of the scholarly sources that outline this. There's a lot of bad information on the Internet on this topic.

I would like very much to get my facts right on this topic. Up until now my understanding is that because Christians were being persecuted at the time, they chose December 25th because there were ‘other celebrations’ on the same date so by celebrating Christ’s Birthday then they would not draw suspicion and further persecution.

My understanding is that the exact date of Jesus Birth is unknown.

Whatever more you know I would appreciate your views and facts on this topic. Thank you.
 
Since every single thing about xianity is pagan, why wouldn’t their holidays be pagan?

They believe in gods that have relatives – that is about as pagan as pagan gets.

They believe in gods that produce children with humans – that is about as pagan as pagan gets.

They believe in a man that is also a god – that is about as pagan as pagan gets.

They believe in a devil – that is pagan.

Their beliefs of heaven and hell are virtually identical to the afterlife beliefs of several different pagan belief systems.

Their belief in human sacrifice (or in their case deicide) is pagan.

Their belief in the consumption of human flesh and blood is pagan.

So I reiterate: if the entire core of the xian belief system is pagan, why wouldn’t their holidays be pagan as well?

***Just as a side note: the birth story found in Luke claims that the child was born during the Census of Quirinius, which began on September 12th of 6 CE and lasted approximately 7 weeks. This means that the child would have had to have been born at some time between September 12th and October 31st of 6 CE. It can even be narrowed down further.

The first chapter of Luke claims that Zechariah was part of the eighth priestly division. This means that his first week of Temple service would have been either the week before or the week after Shavuot, which is approximately mid-May – mid June each year; and his second week of service would have been approximately mid-November – mid-December each year. His wife became pregnant shortly after one of his service weeks: late May – late June or late November – late December. Later it tells us that Mary became pregnant 6 months after Elizabeth. Ergo, Mary would have given birth in either late August – late September or late February – late March.

The birth story in Luke completely eliminates December 25th as a possibility. And since the story claims the child was born during the Census of Quirinius, he would have had to have been born at some time between September 12th and September 30th of 6 CE. However, wouldn’t it be ironic if the xian hero was born on October 31st? LOL ad infinitum!

The date of December 25th obviously came about through sources outside of the xian writings. For what reason? Who cares? Pagan is as pagan does.
 

MikeDwight

Well-Known Member
Since every single thing about xianity is pagan, why wouldn’t their holidays be pagan?

They believe in gods that have relatives – that is about as pagan as pagan gets.

They believe in gods that produce children with humans – that is about as pagan as pagan gets.

They believe in a man that is also a god – that is about as pagan as pagan gets.

They believe in a devil – that is pagan.

Their beliefs of heaven and hell are virtually identical to the afterlife beliefs of several different pagan belief systems.

Their belief in human sacrifice (or in their case deicide) is pagan.

Their belief in the consumption of human flesh and blood is pagan.

So I reiterate: if the entire core of the xian belief system is pagan, why wouldn’t their holidays be pagan as well?

***Just as a side note: the birth story found in Luke claims that the child was born during the Census of Quirinius, which began on September 12th of 6 CE and lasted approximately 7 weeks. This means that the child would have had to have been born at some time between September 12th and October 31st of 6 CE. It can even be narrowed down further.

The first chapter of Luke claims that Zechariah was part of the eighth priestly division. This means that his first week of Temple service would have been either the week before or the week after Shavuot, which is approximately mid-May – mid June each year; and his second week of service would have been approximately mid-November – mid-December each year. His wife became pregnant shortly after one of his service weeks: late May – late June or late November – late December. Later it tells us that Mary became pregnant 6 months after Elizabeth. Ergo, Mary would have given birth in either late August – late September or late February – late March.

The birth story in Luke completely eliminates December 25th as a possibility. And since the story claims the child was born during the Census of Quirinius, he would have had to have been born at some time between September 12th and September 30th of 6 CE. However, wouldn’t it be ironic if the xian hero was born on October 31st? LOL ad infinitum!

The date of December 25th obviously came about through sources outside of the xian writings. For what reason? Who cares? Pagan is as pagan does.
Aw this is so sad. Who does @Yohanan ben Yaaqov work for, the Muslim? Looks like a Torah.

What do you guys thiink? Its fun to even look at. Jesus Christ spoke in the simplest farm metaphors on the planet earth with an infinite intellect. Do you think he cares about uncles and crops? I'm just curious. Where do we assume in the scifi era family relations with any cetainty?

Zeus produced real life rape-babies. That makes Heracles/Hercules a super-human Half-God. That's why I think that Christ was Before Moses, Christ Was in Creation. Christ's Divine Nature is no Creation.

The Chalcedonian Creed sets out how there is Fully man and Fully God. Or is it the Nicene? I don't check every day.

In fact, Jesus Christ in any Bible has only ever said Hades. This is the understanding of the people around as hellenism spread from Rome to the East and the whole Greek world, and Romans adopted all the greek Gods with Roman names. Hades and the God of the Underworld yes, would be a metaphor. Zeus did have a Mount Olympus of the gods.

I'm just curious about this one, is there pagan God sacrifice? God ordained the sacrifice at ever occasion, from knowing it would happen, to communicating it would happen...

Ya the Romans persecuting the first Christians made many stories of kidnapping and killing babies for blood. I think the Eucharist Could use some distance in the living faith tradition.
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
Since every single thing about xianity is pagan, why wouldn’t their holidays be pagan?

They believe in gods that have relatives – that is about as pagan as pagan gets.

They believe in gods that produce children with humans – that is about as pagan as pagan gets.

They believe in a man that is also a god – that is about as pagan as pagan gets.

They believe in a devil – that is pagan.

Their beliefs of heaven and hell are virtually identical to the afterlife beliefs of several different pagan belief systems.

Their belief in human sacrifice (or in their case deicide) is pagan.

Their belief in the consumption of human flesh and blood is pagan.

So what you're saying is that you don't really understand paganism.

"Pagan is derived from the Late Latin paganus, which was used at the end of the Roman Empire to name those who practiced a religion other than Christianity, Judaism, or Islam. Early Christians often used the term to refer to non-Christians who worshiped multiple deities. In Latin, paganus originally meant “country dweller” or “civilian;” it is believed that the word’s religious meanings developed either from the enduring non-Christian religious practices of those who lived far from the Roman cities where Christianity was more quickly adopted, or from the fact that early Christians referred to themselves as “soldiers of Christ,” making nonbelievers “civilians.”"

Definition of PAGANISM
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
Christmas is a celebration of a birthday of jesus christ. How could that be pagan? Unless pagans believe in a person called jesus christ too.

A celebration of Christ, using pagan elements.

The concept of a winter festival honoring light and the coming of new hope by feasting, drinking, gifting, and relationship building is so very wonderfully pagan (and ultimately human).
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How could it be pagan when we are celebrating the birth of the Christ child?

Are you?

The Christ child has been removed from the holiday as pagan traditions replaced Christian ones by Nordic pagans upon their Christianisation.

I live in Mexico, where Christmas is still very Christian.. Later this month will be the posadas, where local children reenact Joseph and Mary's search for a place for Mary to deliver her unborn child. Burros and horses stand in for camels. One home is selected to be the posada (inn), and the children knock on several other doors first, are turned away, only to be finally accepted at the chosen posada. Magi then appear, and eventually, the children celebrate with pinatas and candy

Contrast that with the American holiday. Where's Jesus?

And its not just Baby Jesus that has vanished. The camels and the sand have been replaced by reindeer and snow. Joseph has been replaced by Santa. Mary was replaced by Mrs. Claus. Frosty the Snowman and Rudolph sit on the lawn. Bethllehem has been replaced by the North Pole, and the manger by Santa's workshop there.

The three wise men have been replaced by elves. "Silent Night" and "Little Town of Bethlehem" are now "Jingle Bells" and "Grandma Got Run Over By A Reindeer." The Christmas trees, yule logs, tinsel, Christmas lights, holly wreathes, flocking, and mistletoe sold at Wal-Mart are further testimony to the Ice Giants' conquest of the desert holiday and its replacement with their icy pagan holiday.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Since every single thing about xianity is pagan, why wouldn’t their holidays be pagan?

They believe in gods that have relatives – that is about as pagan as pagan gets.

They believe in gods that produce children with humans – that is about as pagan as pagan gets.

They believe in a man that is also a god – that is about as pagan as pagan gets.

They believe in a devil – that is pagan.

Their beliefs of heaven and hell are virtually identical to the afterlife beliefs of several different pagan belief systems.

Their belief in human sacrifice (or in their case deicide) is pagan.

Their belief in the consumption of human flesh and blood is pagan.

So I reiterate: if the entire core of the xian belief system is pagan, why wouldn’t their holidays be pagan as well?

***Just as a side note: the birth story found in Luke claims that the child was born during the Census of Quirinius, which began on September 12th of 6 CE and lasted approximately 7 weeks. This means that the child would have had to have been born at some time between September 12th and October 31st of 6 CE. It can even be narrowed down further.

The first chapter of Luke claims that Zechariah was part of the eighth priestly division. This means that his first week of Temple service would have been either the week before or the week after Shavuot, which is approximately mid-May – mid June each year; and his second week of service would have been approximately mid-November – mid-December each year. His wife became pregnant shortly after one of his service weeks: late May – late June or late November – late December. Later it tells us that Mary became pregnant 6 months after Elizabeth. Ergo, Mary would have given birth in either late August – late September or late February – late March.

The birth story in Luke completely eliminates December 25th as a possibility. And since the story claims the child was born during the Census of Quirinius, he would have had to have been born at some time between September 12th and September 30th of 6 CE. However, wouldn’t it be ironic if the xian hero was born on October 31st? LOL ad infinitum!

The date of December 25th obviously came about through sources outside of the xian writings. For what reason? Who cares? Pagan is as pagan does.

Luke never met Jesus and lived in Antioch.. He completely screwed up the geography of Palestine.
 
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