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Featured is Christmas Pagan?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Riders, Dec 14, 2019.

  1. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    Could not find my old thread so I had to put it up again Merry Christmas.
     
  2. SigurdReginson

    SigurdReginson Active Member

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    It's rooted in pagan practices and traditions, but it's current manifestation is Christian - for the moment. It's definitely taking on more of a secular tone in this day and age. It feels like the nativity is just slapped onto the side while Yolfathr, I mean Yule Father, I mean Father Christmas, I mean Saint Nicholas, I mean Santa Claus takes the spot light.

    Interesting how in spite of Christian's attempts to hijack holidays, they never were able to muscle out the pagan roots and traditions. Just as well; they would be a lot more boring without them.
     
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  3. Howard Is

    Howard Is Lucky Mud

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    Yes it is.
    It is a winter solstice festival. The return of our saviour, the Sun.
    In the far north, the Sun dips below the horizon for a few days...buried in the earth...like Jesus in his tomb.
     
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  4. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    Winter Solstice celebrations are pretty much universal in all northern cultures. As Christinaity became Roman it adapted the Roman Winter Solstice as their holiday.
     
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  5. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    Thanks interesting replies. Yea I am not trying to run down Christmas I love Christmas the decorations, except for the loneliness part and me being single I hate that,

    But Id like to get more about the history as we go its all good.
     
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  6. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    For many including myself in the past Christmas is a lonely time. You can just go out sing carols and enjoy the Winter Solstice celebrations.

    Have a Happy whatever!
     
  7. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    The dating of Christmas to 25 Dec actually had nothing to do with Pagan festivals. There wasn't one on the 25th (I'm aware of the Sol Invictus argument. It's wrong) .

    Ironically the idea it was pagan was popularised in Protestant anti-Catholic polemics.

    It likely dates to the early 3rd century, based on Christian theological calculations.

    If I have some time I'll post some of the scholarly sources that outline this. There's a lot of bad information on the Internet on this topic.
     
    #7 Augustus, Dec 14, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2019
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  8. Howard Is

    Howard Is Lucky Mud

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    This one would be appropriate too.

    Have a pleasant ongoing rebirth :)

     
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  9. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    The symbolism is apt for the Northern Hemisphere. The light diminishes until it's at the lowest ebb. Then the process reverses itself and light starts returning.
     
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  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Actually its still pagan with a thin "Christian" label grafted over the top of it. But is that OK with God?

    2 Corinthians 6:14-18...
    "Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beʹli·al [the devil]? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 ‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” 18 ‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.”

    According to this, a Christian cannot mix true worship with false religion. We have to separate ourselves from those spiritually "unclean" things.

    Exactly. Atheists celebrate it like the greed-fest that it is. Its a commercial holy day dedicated to the god of mammon. Funny how Santa is so generous to the rich kids but so mean to the poor ones.

    Boring maybe.....but probably more acceptable to God if we just give them a wide berth.....
     
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  11. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    How could it be pagan when we are celebrating the birth of the Christ child?
     
  12. MikeDwight

    MikeDwight Well-Known Member

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    Well, in my faith tradition, it seems more relevant that the superstition is from the Pope rather than the Pagans. It seems before 800 ad the Early Middle Ages, such a trifle as Epiphany was more commonly celebrated and it saw prominence with the 800 ad coronation of Charlemagne which of course many other Kings would do likewise around the world into 1400s. It stands for High-Catholicism, doesn't it?
     
  13. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    The general idea idea that gets endlessly repeated is "Christians are devious and tried to hijack Pagan festivals as a cheap marketing ploy to dupe the masses".

    It's completely wrong, but that's the general idea.
     
  14. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    I know.. Its ridiculous… I feel sorry for those people who can't have fun, and family and feasts.. Don't they like to give gifts to those they love? Curmudgeons ...that's what they are.
     
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  15. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    I think the letter was written to the Corinthians..
     
  16. SigurdReginson

    SigurdReginson Active Member

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    I don't know about Saturnalia, but there are definite similarities between Christmas as it is celebrated today and Yule. Heavy drinking, merry making, gift giving, etc. are all very Nordic pagan in origin. Instead of a flying sleigh with eight reindeer, Odin has a flying horse with eight legs. Instead of putting gifts in stockings, Odin leaves gifts in boots. Odin crosses the sky on the night of Yule. The Yule log is still practiced even today, minus the carved runes. Odin has dwarves who make him things. Trees were brought into the home with apples tied on in Yuletide. I could keep going, honestly.

    How is this any different than Easter or Halloween?
     
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  17. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    In terms of how it is celebrated there are all kinds of influences.

    That's different from why it is on the 25 Dec

    Easter (pascha) is linked to the Jewish passover (pesach).

    Halloween also has Christian roots.

    Again, the how may be different from the why though.
     
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  18. SigurdReginson

    SigurdReginson Active Member

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    Nothing exists in a vacuum for sure, so it wouldn't surprise me if early Christians already had something similar and tried to replace the pagan practices when they were converting them to the new practices. Something similar happened when it came to the sign of the cross. Pagans already had the sign of the hammer when they were converted, so getting them to adopt this new motion was a bit of a challenge.

    If you find those sources post em! That'd be an interesting read.
     
  19. Harel13

    Harel13 Well-Known Member

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    You're right, but this one comes close: Saturnalia - Wikipedia
     
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Have you done any research? First of all Jews did not celebrate birthdays because of their connection with astrology. It was part of the conditions of entry into the Promised Land. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)

    Secondly, Jesus was not born in December. And the customs of "Christmas" have nothing whatever to do with the birth of Christ....every one of them is pagan in origin, including the festive season of the god in whose honor it was held. (Mithra)

    The so called "wise men" were Babylonian astrologers who followed a star that led them to a jealous King who, when he heard of the birth of a new King, murdered all the infants 2 years of age and under in an attempt to protect his own dynasty. Only after they had alerted Herod did the star lead them to the Christ child. They were never at the stable and the star was not from God.
     
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