Is Catholicism a true religion

fiat lux · Dec 9, 2016

I have only just spotted this thread and happen to have recently read an article by G.K. Chesterton written in 1908, it's very good on this subject and I see someone has even made YouTube out of it;

Might be worth a look, knghtkings and I would be interested in what you (and anyone else ) thinks of it.

VitoOFMCap · Dec 9, 2016

knghtkings said:
I will state all that I know about the Catholic Religion and

and this is where I stopped reading.

Don't take it as a complete insult. I mean, the development of doctrines such as Jesus' full humanity and divinity, Trinitarian theology, the Atonement theoly, the erimetical tradition, the support of martyrs and the reconciliation of the apostates, yeah all that stuff came over centuries of people coming up with their own ideas.

One of the major themes of the Catholic faith is the "people of God." I think it's nice that you have your own thinks, but theology is nourished by sharing it and implementing it within a congregation of believers. Not every Catholic agrees. Not every Catholic thinks the same. Not every Catholic has a Marian devotion. For better or for worse, for all its good and bad history, the Mission of God has a church for the world. There is a communal connection as brothers and sisters of God's creation, and therefore our experiences of that relationship must also be shared. Its a mission that has been developed over 2 thousand years of trying to spread the Gospel and recognizing that we've failed at times.

If what you know about the Catholic Church is summed up in a few paragraphs on a message board, I would encourage you to spend more time in history and the development of the various doctrines of the Christian faith.

Good day, sir. =)

Shlomoh · Dec 9, 2016

knghtkings said:
I will state all that I know about the Catholic Religion and why I think it is a false cult

Catholicism is as true AND false as any other man made allegory

columbus · Dec 9, 2016

Milton Platt said:
What is the actual difference between the words veneration and worship?

It's been 40+ years since Catholic school, doubtless other posters would be a better source.
In broad strokes, one reveres the living, venerates saints, worships God.
Tom

DrTCH · Dec 9, 2016

lovesong said:
May I suggest a DIR for this. This isn't really the place for preaching.

I would like to suggest much less dependence in our culture...ON ACRONYMS..and the use of normal, correct English. What, pray tell, is a "DIR?" Are you speaking of a "redirect" to another topic or page? If so, would this not be abbreviated by "REDIR?" Thanks!!

Mary Blackchurch · Dec 9, 2016

One might even argue that Catholicism was the first Christian religion insofar as an established administration based on Christ's teachings. All of the little protestant "apples" fell from the big tree of "Cathol" 1500 years after the Church was established. All protestant churches are byproducts of that one religion. It all began with the Reformation and Lutheranism.

Mary Blackchurch · Dec 9, 2016

DrTCH said:
I would like to suggest much less dependence in our culture...ON ACRONYMS..and the use of normal, correct English. What, pray tell, is a "DIR?

Amen.

I thought it meant "Do It Right" And somehow that just didn't make sense in context.

miodrag · Dec 9, 2016

knghtkings said:
I will state all that I know about the Catholic Religion and why I think it is a false cult

Question is only if your faith is a true religion. And it is true if it gives spiritual results. Which results are genuine or acceptable? Well, that is a mater of convention about what religion and spirituality were supposed to be. I have seen debates between atheists and Christians, arguing about errors in Bible. I never understood why Christians even bother to defend Bible. Bible is not perfect in a scientific sense. It was never intended to be a manual on mathematics, biology, geography... It is only one account on spirituality and what might be important in that regard, by one culture, one nation, at the certain point in time, in specific circumstances. It was supposed to provide a much needed identity and the law for people who needed their own state. Bible is a manifest for the foundation of one nation and it's state. And then it got viral and interpreted in alternative ways. There is no reason to defend Bible by arguing about a specific confession's orthodoxy and "true" interpretation. Those Christians should have just said "yes, Bible may not be inerrant, but: once I was one man, and now, after accepting /or being inspired by/ that same, problematic Bible, I am a different person now". And the difference is in spiritual progress. So why should anybody care about true Bible or true religion? Is your spiritual progress genuine - that should be asked instead. I don't care how that progress may be achieved. By Bible or Koran or whatever - that is a matter of devotee's intelligence, cultural background etc. As far as I am concerned, you may get closer to God or get saved by hook or by crook, I don't care. Just do it. Which path will you choose or what ideology will you follow, that is irrelevant. What you seem to be upset with is a consistency of Christian teachings. That is the matter of apologetics and indeed, that is where you should seek answers for your specific questions. But, Catholicism as a whole is not false as long as there are genuine Catholic saints, who are a living proof that it works.

knghtkings said:
True Salvation according to the bible is to hear/read the Gospel and then examine yourself and then change your mind from unbelief to belief in Jesus Christ

No. It is to become Christ-like. And you do not have a clue.

columbus · Dec 9, 2016

DIR is an idiom from Religious Forums. It stands for Discuss Individual Religion. The original purpose was forums where the members of a religious community could discuss things specific to their beliefs, without outsiders butting in to the convo. Like Jews discussing something about Judaism without Christians telling them they're going to hell, that sort of thing.
The DIRs have spread to include some political groups now.
Tom

Mary Blackchurch · Dec 9, 2016

syncretic said:
This is very abstract, and simply nonsensical. The Catholic church is one of the 'most' different, /from early actual Jesus adherence, as opposed to various Protestant groups, that are far closer. The ''protestant'' groups, did not ''come from'' the Catholic church, they gained independence from it, and simply were able to practice ''normally'', with less of a focus on the ''crucifixion'', etc etc.
It's no coincidence, that the closer you get to Israelite Christianity, the more ''Protestant'' it seems.

I beg your pardon. In what way is it nonsensical to say that the Roman Empire, Vatican and all, is somehow not the first established church based on Christianity? Even if what you say is true about Catholicism being the "most" different from early/actual Jesus adherence, what Protestant group that came about after Catholicism was closer to getting it right and why?

You see? In the end, all you have is the argument but I'd still like an answer. This is historical and there's nothing abstract about it. To PROTEST ( a derivative of PROTESTant) the Roman Church is where you get the title "Protestant". How does getting closer to Israelite Christianity matter? And to your way of thinking, what is that?

cosmogenes · Dec 9, 2016

knghtkings said:
I will state all that I know about the Catholic Religion and why I think it is a false cult
To become a Catholic you must attend classes /training that can last over a year or longer depending upon you local Bishop/Priest thinking you are ready to become a member.

True Salvation according to the bible is to hear/read the Gospel and then examine yourself and then change your mind from unbelief to belief in Jesus Christ

yet I can not recall ever hearing about this when I was within Catholicism

My understanding of SIN AND DAILY SINS

SIN Which over 90 times in the Bible says we are to repent of this one SIN
Now the Catholic church say this SIN is our daily sins and those that are Mortal can undo your salvation.
Yet in rereading the Bible concerning our repenting of this SIN the Bible makes it very clear this one SIM
is UNBELIEF IN JESUS CHRIST and that no one will be save until they repent of this one SIN.

Further study shows that Christ came to be our Savior by shedding his innocent blood for all our daily sins
Thus all mankind's daily sins debt is already paid in full at Calvary but UNBELIEF can not be paid in full by blood or any other means except by a complete change of mind unto total belief in Jesus Christ

So while each Saturday most loyal Catholics and go to Confession to confess their sins and then have to do a penance concerning these daily sins that were in fact paid in full about 2 thousands years ago
Now to me says they don't really believe in Jesus Christ and I say their socalled befief in Jesus is suspect to say the least that is to say you believe in Jesus Christ and then go to confession each Saturday and confess your sins and then do a penance for the.m says to me that they don't really believe what Jesus did at Calvary

So here we have 3 conflicts between Catholicism and the Bible namely SIN (UNBELIEF) DAILY SINS AND SALVATION.
I have never heard of a catholic repent of their UNBELIEF TO BECOME A CATHOLIC.
DAILY SINS were paid in full by Jesus Christ at Calvary there are no instructions to confess these sins to any man and then this man says your sins are forgiven I seriously doubt he is able to remove any one sin by his own power. the closes we can get to this in Gal 5;17 'for the flesh lusteth against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh, and these are contrary, the one to the other ; so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 'As born again believers. we have the option to sin or not to give in to the flesh or follow the Sprit. When we follow Jesus. then 1 john 3;8b is fulfilled. what happens if we do sin? 'If we confess our sins , He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins.and cleanse us from all unrighteousness1 John 1;9
and then believing salvation is here today and gone tomorrow if we commit sins is total false
the bible says salvation can not be ended once given you have it for all eternity
The law is dead to all believers as all Believer are now under GRACE

Now I admit all Catholics say they believe in Jesus and believe they eat him at every mass./
there is no such thnig as a bloodless sacrifice which the Catholic church claims they can do at every mass
The Bible say without the shedding of innocent blood there can be no remission of sins
But since Calvary when Jesus paid our sin debt. Now believers have been freed from needing innocent blood to forgive themselves from their sin we just need to pray to Jesus for forgivness
Yet Catholicism denys all this and has made a religion out of sins
Jesus in John 10'28,29 promised the believers that once he save you it then became his responsibility to keep us saved until he returns Yet here the Catholic Church calls Jesus a liar and says your mortal sin destroys your salvation
So is Catholicism a true religion where its member are truly saved snd that pope is god upon this earth. hhhmmmm I say no I think they are all lost because what they believe contradics what the Bible says
I won't even get into the false worship of Mary and her ability by Catholic Doctrie to be able to hear and answer and forgive sins.

cosmogenes · Dec 9, 2016

Catholicism, i.e. the Roman Catholic variety of Christianity is definitely a "religion", in fact one of the oldest practiced today. But so far as it is "true", none of the hundreds of religions, denominations or sects of the world is "true" from an objective point of view. They are all perpetuations of some man's ideas, with typical modifications and offshoots.

Talmai · Dec 9, 2016

knghtkings said:
I will state all that I know about the Catholic Religion and why I think it is a false cult

If I were the one stating all I know about the catholic religion I would post the Athanasian Creed. It is the best summary of the faith you will ever read.

I get what you mean that the Catholic Religion, by which you mean Roman Catholicism, is a false cult. So then, is the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist tradition a true cult?

knghtkings said:
To become a Catholic you must attend classes /training that can last over a year or longer depending upon you local Bishop/Priest thinking you are ready to become a member.

It is called being a catechumen. I myself was a catechumen within the Antiochian Orthodox Church. After six months of classes I turned down the offer to be received into the Orthodox Church because I realized I would not be able to commit to it for life. It was a good thing that I was required to attend the classes rather than be instantly received into the church followed by changing my mind and disappointing everyone.

knghtkings said:
True Salvation according to the bible is to hear/read the Gospel and then examine yourself and then change your mind from unbelief to belief in Jesus Christ

yet I can not recall ever hearing about this when I was within Catholicism

Are you a Pelagian, Semi-Pelagian, or Arminian? I ask because the way you worded what you had to say about "true salvation" actually gives glory to man rather than God, and it does not appear in the Holy Scriptures.

knghtkings said:
My understanding of SIN AND DAILY SINS

SIN Which over 90 times in the Bible says we are to repent of this one SIN
Now the Catholic church say this SIN is our daily sins and those that are Mortal can undo your salvation.
Yet in rereading the Bible concerning our repenting of this SIN the Bible makes it very clear this one SIM
is UNBELIEF IN JESUS CHRIST and that no one will be save until they repent of this one SIN.

Where in the Bible does it say repent from only one sin?

knghtkings said:
Further study shows that Christ came to be our Savior by shedding his innocent blood for all our daily sins
Thus all mankind's daily sins debt is already paid in full at Calvary but UNBELIEF can not be paid in full by blood or any other means except by a complete change of mind unto total belief in Jesus Christ

I used to be an unbeliever and then God gave me faith in Christ Jesus. Are you telling me that my Lord did not die for the unbelief I used to have, and that I purged the sin myself? I don't know about you but I look to Jesus alone, not to my own effort!

knghtkings said:
So while each Saturday most loyal Catholics and go to Confession to confess their sins and then have to do a penance concerning these daily sins that were in fact paid in full about 2 thousands years ago
Now to me says they don't really believe in Jesus Christ and I say their socalled befief in Jesus is suspect to say the least that is to say you believe in Jesus Christ and then go to confession each Saturday and confess your sins and then do a penance for the.m says to me that they don't really believe what Jesus did at Calvary

I am not a big fan of the penance system either. However, I am not going to say the faith in Jesus of a Roman Catholic is suspect because of it.

knghtkings said:
So here we have 3 conflicts between Catholicism and the Bible namely SIN (UNBELIEF) DAILY SINS AND SALVATION.
I have never heard of a catholic repent of their UNBELIEF TO BECOME A CATHOLIC.

And I never heard of one having to purge their sin of unbelief followed by Jesus purging the rest of their sins until now. All this time I thought Jesus alone is the sacrifice of atonement! How often do you read your Bible?

knghtkings said:
DAILY SINS were paid in full by Jesus Christ at Calvary there are no instructions to confess these sins to any man and then this man says your sins are forgiven I seriously doubt he is able to remove any one sin by his own power.

Indeed, Jesus Christ made satisfaction for all of our sins at Golgotha. Nonetheless grace and the forgiveness of sins is given to us through means, namely, Word and Sacrament in the Church because this is what God promised, hence Jesus gave the Church the Office of the Keys.

By the way, what do you think of John 13:20 and 20:23? The implication of Jesus' words in these two verses is that my pastor can pronounce the words of absolution and that I should believe his words because Jesus works through him.

knghtkings said:
the closes we can get to this in Gal 5;17 'for the flesh lusteth against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh, and these are contrary, the one to the other ; so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 'As born again believers. we have the option to sin or not to give in to the flesh or follow the Sprit. When we follow Jesus. then 1 john 3;8b is fulfilled. what happens if we do sin? 'If we confess our sins , He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins.and cleanse us from all unrighteousness1 John 1;9

What is the longest you have gone without ever sinning?

knghtkings said:
and then believing salvation is here today and gone tomorrow if we commit sins is total false
the bible says salvation can not be ended once given you have it for all eternity

What do you think of 2 Peter 2:15?

knghtkings said:
The law is dead to all believers as all Believer are now under GRACE

We are dead to the Law.

knghtkings said:
Now I admit all Catholics say they believe in Jesus and believe they eat him at every mass./
there is no such thnig as a bloodless sacrifice which the Catholic church claims they can do at every mass
The Bible say without the shedding of innocent blood there can be no remission of sins
But since Calvary when Jesus paid our sin debt. Now believers have been freed from needing innocent blood to forgive themselves from their sin we just need to pray to Jesus for forgivness

As a Lutheran I agree with you that there is no need for a bloodless sacrifice at the Mass. However, I believe God gives us grace in Holy Communion. Jesus' own words are "Take," "eat," "drink," and "for the forgiveness of sins."

knghtkings said:
Yet Catholicism denys all this and has made a religion out of sins
Jesus in John 10'28,29 promised the believers that once he save you it then became his responsibility to keep us saved until he returns Yet here the Catholic Church calls Jesus a liar and says your mortal sin destroys your salvation

I agree that sin cannot destroy salvation. However, sins such as murder, adultery, sorcery, etc. will keep a person out of Heaven! (see Galatians 5:19-21) A Christian will naturally detest such sins and will not do them. But why do some people believe yet end up committing these horrible sins? They throw away faith and the Spirit and then suddenly they have the mindset to justify such sins!

knghtkings said:
So is Catholicism a true religion where its member are truly saved snd that pope is god upon this earth. hhhmmmm I say no I think they are all lost because what they believe contradics what the Bible says

I thought it was God who knows who His chosen ones are.

knghtkings said:
I won't even get into the false worship of Mary and her ability by Catholic Doctrie to be able to hear and answer and forgive sins.

I had no idea Roman Catholics (or Eastern Orthodox Christians for that matter) believe that.

God bless you, sir!

lovesong · Dec 9, 2016

DrTCH said:
I would like to suggest much less dependence in our culture...ON ACRONYMS..and the use of normal, correct English. What, pray tell, is a "DIR?" Are you speaking of a "redirect" to another topic or page? If so, would this not be abbreviated by "REDIR?" Thanks!!

Mary Blackchurch said:
Amen. I thought it meant "Do It Right" And somehow that just didn't make sense in context.

The DIRs are specific sections of this forum...

metis · Dec 9, 2016

Talmai said:
I had no idea Roman Catholics (or Eastern Orthodox Christians for that matter) believe that.

You responded to this: "I won't even get into the false worship of Mary and her ability by Catholic Doctrie to be able to hear and answer and forgive sins.".

Catholics do not worship Mary nor do they believe Mary can forgive sins with the lone exception of those sins that could have been committed against her. [you & I can forgive the sin of one who may sin against us, but then the sinner also has to make right with God]

neologist · Dec 9, 2016

Inasmuch as Catholicism attempts to examine man's relationship to God, it must certainly qualify as a religion.
This is not an endorsement.

Unveiled Artist · Dec 9, 2016

Milton Platt said:
What is the actual difference between the words veneration and worship?

Veneration: The act of showing respect; a feeling of deep respect

Putting flowers on a loved ones grave is a feeling of deep respect with do here in the US. Some of us put pictures of our loved ones on our tables to remember them and venerate or respect the wisdom they gave us when they were living in flesh.

Worship

: reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3: a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4: extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem <worship of the dollar>

Worship in context is not done to people who are on the same level as us such as family members and friends. It usually have a heirachy stance whether we see it as the father, most divine, higher being. Veneration does not have that stance.

I tried to get pictures but they keep saying they are encrypted.

Cateau · Dec 9, 2016

knghtkings said:
I will state all that I know about the Catholic Religion and why I think it is a false cult
To become a Catholic you must attend classes /training that can last over a year or longer depending upon you local Bishop/Priest thinking you are ready to become a member.

True Salvation according to the bible is to hear/read the Gospel and then examine yourself and then change your mind from unbelief to belief in Jesus Christ

yet I can not recall ever hearing about this when I was within Catholicism

My understanding of SIN AND DAILY SINS

SIN Which over 90 times in the Bible says we are to repent of this one SIN
Now the Catholic church say this SIN is our daily sins and those that are Mortal can undo your salvation.
Yet in rereading the Bible concerning our repenting of this SIN the Bible makes it very clear this one SIM
is UNBELIEF IN JESUS CHRIST and that no one will be save until they repent of this one SIN.

Further study shows that Christ came to be our Savior by shedding his innocent blood for all our daily sins
Thus all mankind's daily sins debt is already paid in full at Calvary but UNBELIEF can not be paid in full by blood or any other means except by a complete change of mind unto total belief in Jesus Christ

So while each Saturday most loyal Catholics and go to Confession to confess their sins and then have to do a penance concerning these daily sins that were in fact paid in full about 2 thousands years ago
Now to me says they don't really believe in Jesus Christ and I say their socalled befief in Jesus is suspect to say the least that is to say you believe in Jesus Christ and then go to confession each Saturday and confess your sins and then do a penance for the.m says to me that they don't really believe what Jesus did at Calvary

So here we have 3 conflicts between Catholicism and the Bible namely SIN (UNBELIEF) DAILY SINS AND SALVATION.
I have never heard of a catholic repent of their UNBELIEF TO BECOME A CATHOLIC.
DAILY SINS were paid in full by Jesus Christ at Calvary there are no instructions to confess these sins to any man and then this man says your sins are forgiven I seriously doubt he is able to remove any one sin by his own power. the closes we can get to this in Gal 5;17 'for the flesh lusteth against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh, and these are contrary, the one to the other ; so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 'As born again believers. we have the option to sin or not to give in to the flesh or follow the Sprit. When we follow Jesus. then 1 john 3;8b is fulfilled. what happens if we do sin? 'If we confess our sins , He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins.and cleanse us from all unrighteousness1 John 1;9
and then believing salvation is here today and gone tomorrow if we commit sins is total false
the bible says salvation can not be ended once given you have it for all eternity
The law is dead to all believers as all Believer are now under GRACE

Now I admit all Catholics say they believe in Jesus and believe they eat him at every mass./
there is no such thnig as a bloodless sacrifice which the Catholic church claims they can do at every mass
The Bible say without the shedding of innocent blood there can be no remission of sins
But since Calvary when Jesus paid our sin debt. Now believers have been freed from needing innocent blood to forgive themselves from their sin we just need to pray to Jesus for forgivness
Yet Catholicism denys all this and has made a religion out of sins
Jesus in John 10'28,29 promised the believers that once he save you it then became his responsibility to keep us saved until he returns Yet here the Catholic Church calls Jesus a liar and says your mortal sin destroys your salvation
So is Catholicism a true religion where its member are truly saved snd that pope is god upon this earth. hhhmmmm I say no I think they are all lost because what they believe contradics what the Bible says
I won't even get into the false worship of Mary and her ability by Catholic Doctrie to be able to hear and answer and forgive sins.

Let's not get started on the papacy either. When I read in history that a pope was overthrown and murdered I was like blasphemy! Now I'm like where's that guy now....hmm.

Aštra’el · Dec 9, 2016

neologist said:
Inasmuch as Catholicism attempts to examine man's relationship to God, it must certainly qualify as a religion.
This is not an endorsement.

The collective accounts within Abrahamic culture regarding the interelations between the microcosm and the Macrocosm are undeniably profound, deeply insightful and enlightening, and incredibly useful to any individual of any path.

Dawnofhope · Dec 9, 2016

I would consider that most reputable studies of comparitive religion would recognise Christianity as one of the main religions of the world and acknowledge the Catholic Chuch as being a main denomination or branch. To what extent the teachings and actions of the Church past and present have reflected on the exalted teachings of Jesus is another question. As to the Divine authority upon which such teachings and actions are founded...

"Now with regard to your questions. First concerning the statement of Jesus Christ 'Thou art Peter and upon this rock etc.'; this saying of Jesus establishes beyond any doubt the primacy of Peter and also the principle of succession, but is not explicit enough regarding the nature and functioning of the Church itself. The Catholics have read too much into that statement, and derived from it certain conclusions which are quite unjustifiable." Shoghi Effendi (Baha'i)

Is Catholicism a true religion

Member

Member

Member

yawn <ignore> yawn

Member

Free from Stockholm Syndrome

Free from Stockholm Syndrome

Member

yawn <ignore> yawn

Free from Stockholm Syndrome

observer

observer

Member

:D

aged ecumenical anthropologist

Member

Veteran Member

Giovanni Pico & Della Barba Devotee

Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i