1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Is Catholicism a true religion

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by knghtkings, Dec 8, 2016.

  1. columbus

    columbus yawn <ignore> yawn

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014
    Messages:
    25,164
    Ratings:
    +16,316
    Religion:
    None
    In all honesty, the willingness to make internally inconsistent statements in the Christian style is what makes them so Christian. IMHO.
    Tom
     
  2. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    4,935
    Ratings:
    +2,214
    Religion:
    Catholic
    Would you elaborate, please?
     
  3. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    9,981
    Ratings:
    +8,689
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Thank you for directing me to a Catholic website with a well considered response that goes some way to answering my questions.
     
  4. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    32,747
    Ratings:
    +15,026
    Religion:
    ecumenical & naturalistic Catholic
    OK, thanks for the clarification as for where you were coming from on this.

    BTW, I have no irons in the fire on this one way or another as I'm not Christian, but I too often see here at RF what you're describing above. .
     
  5. columbus

    columbus yawn <ignore> yawn

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014
    Messages:
    25,164
    Ratings:
    +16,316
    Religion:
    None
    As fond as I am of Mother Church, most of the fundamental teachings of Christianity are incoherent. Teachings like Moses met God personally and still failed to notice Jesus. Or Jesus was prophesied all over the Original Testament, but the people who wrote, studied, and built their world view around around it didn't know which parts are accurate or permanent.
    There's a lot of stuff like that I have noticed.

    But the flip side to that is that the RCC wrote the Apostolic Creed, redacted the Bible, and generally "wrote the Book on Christianity" in the most literal possible way. A person might prefer their own interpretation of aspects of the teachings, but the question "Is Catholicism Christian?" is borderline insanity. We defined traditional Christianity.
    Tom
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    4,935
    Ratings:
    +2,214
    Religion:
    Catholic

    Thanks for your response. I agree that much of Christianity, at first look, seems incoherent. The problem is that most of us accept or reject Scripture on this 'fist look'. It is only Christianity in its interpretation of Hebrew Scripture that Jesus was prophesied as the Savior, (the author may have intended the 'suffering servant' to be Israel itself). In other words, it is necessary to peel back layer after layer in the attempt to find a coherent path through something that is no less than a literary masterpiece that ought to be critiqued as any other literary work, distinguishing what is story, legend, myth, folk lore and history.
    At closer look much of Catholic dogma is not found in Scripture. The Church actually warns against a literalist interpretation. Probably one of the distinct differences between Christian religions.
     
  7. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2013
    Messages:
    7,622
    Ratings:
    +7,710
    Religion:
    None, a humanist who doesn't even worship humans
    Well, that's fine, I suppose, but all I can see is that you are using mystical-sounding phrases to no other purpose than helping you to ignore what is -- to me -- a very real cognitive dissonance. It often surprises me how easily some we humans do that, once we've "bought in" to any ideology.
     
  8. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    9,981
    Ratings:
    +8,689
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I can see why the question as this thread started off with a post calling the Catholic Church:

    (1) A cult and;
    (2) Not Christian

    The author is clearly protestant.

    I think both criticisms have been rightly refuted.

    Catholicism is clearly a major branch of Christianity and not a cult.

    What caught my attention is the animosity and disunity.

    The early Christian Theologican Tertullian commented "see how the Christians love one another"

    Jesus when asked about the most important commandment stated love God and love thy Neighbour as thyself.

    Wheres the love?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    4,935
    Ratings:
    +2,214
    Religion:
    Catholic

    What other than 'mystical' sounding when considering the Incomprehensible Mystery?

    "Wouldn't it be nice if what we knew was consistent with what we believed?"
    Heschel refers to that as 'a knowing faith, and believing knowledge.' We do not live only in a cognitive domain.
     
  10. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    4,935
    Ratings:
    +2,214
    Religion:
    Catholic
    In the broader sense the Church is a cult. And within that cult are others, ie the cult of Mary etc. In the sense that a cult is a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
     
  11. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2013
    Messages:
    7,622
    Ratings:
    +7,710
    Religion:
    None, a humanist who doesn't even worship humans
    Well, if it's "incomprehensible," then nothing -- not even 'mystical sounding' -- is going to help you comprehend it. Tautology.
    No, we don't. But since our beliefs inform our actions, I think it is more than just a little important to be quite sure our beliefs are not leading us astray. For example, the belief that you will be raptured up to heaven and get 72 virgins (and don't forget the 6 very pretty boys, too) just for blowing yourself up along with a bunch of kufir might at least be questioned a little bit.

    When I read history (and current events), I constantly remind myself that each and every actor in every scene is and has been a human being -- acting on his own beliefs, or conditioned to accept and act on the beliefs of others. And there is no small amount of absolute horror in both history AND current events, which tells me that not enough humans are doing that necessary questioning properly.
     
  12. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    32,747
    Ratings:
    +15,026
    Religion:
    ecumenical & naturalistic Catholic
    We agree.

    Yep, I've definitely have noticed that as well

    Thanks for your input on this.
     
  13. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    9,981
    Ratings:
    +8,689
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    There is a great deal of misunderstanding and confusion in regards to religion and spirituality. We can use language in a way that creates clarity or confusion. We can write to each other in way that contributes to harmony and happiness, or ill feeling and discontent.

    The use of the word "cult" to describe another's religion is likely to lead to misunderstandings, confusion, and ill feeling. It may well have a correct technical meaning as suggested but for many it has negative and highly emotive associations with doomsday cults, extremism, moral deviancy etc such as the Branch Davidians or the Jim Jones People's Temple.
     
  14. Midget01

    Midget01 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2011
    Messages:
    48
    Ratings:
    +2
    SIrKnightkings: you are not making sense with your criticism of the Catholic Church. You have no concept of scripture, the church or of what sin is or what Christ did at the Last Supper / Seder Meal that Changed the understanding of religion for eternity. If you are judging the Catholic Church based on a Bible that was rewritten and translated by Martin Luther after 1550 or any other protestant denomination you can find many different interpretations and missing books. then to judge a church by hearsay or lack of knowledge does not lead one to the truth especially if it comes from a fallen away Catholic or a misguided one. I myself have been a Director and studied at several colleges worked with the Rite Of Christian Initiation and know that you have no idea of the Catholic requirements for Initiation. From the beginning of the inception Catholicism; it began as a sect of the Jewish Faith because many of the apostles were Jewish and received their instruction from Jesus himself. By 50 A.D. The early Fathers of the Church were sending letters to other Bishops and leaders of this early Church using the title Catholic Church (meaning Universal). Sin is a turning away from God. God gave each of us choices when He created us. This choice is known as free will. God knows that not all of us will end up choosing His path. He is like a patent father who gives us grace but if we chose to refuse it He just waits. To refuse His love is to reject Him and God does not force us to go to heaven just because He created us. Jesus told the Apostles that who sins you shall retain they are retained and those sins you loose on earth will be loose in heaven. Matthew 18:18. People do need to be educated when they choose to become a faith. In order to believe with the others they all need to be on the same page. Jesus himself was brought to the temple and was circumcised and at the age of 12 He entered the temple and spoke with the rabbi's which was the age for Bat Mitzvah. He though instructed them and spoke as a Jewish Adult which surprised and impressed them. After 3 years of journeying with 12 men called the apostles they traveled the area preaching and teaching and when necessary trying to correct the Heresy's that had surfaced from the beginning of the world. Jesus died to reverse the sin of Adam and Eve who sinned by obeying Satan and turned away from God. Jesus gave the Apostles the authority to continue His work after His death and He instructed them to eliminate the bloody sacrifice and to follow in the foot steps of Melchizedek. Who offered an unbloody sacrifice of Bread and Wine. Bloody sacrifices were done for atonement of sin by the Jews in the Temple and Jesus had predicted that the Temple would be destroyed in 70 AD was suggesting He would be the last Bloody sacrifice to be made and that the Apostles were to continue offering this sacrifice. He stated that every time they did He would be present and that is why it is referred to as the Real Presence. He didn't say imitate me, or I demand you do this, He simply told them to do it. It wasn't an option. It needed to be wine and unleaven bread because that is what He used and raised so that the community of followers that sat with Him during the last Passover Seder Meal heard and saw. This is written in the book of Acts and there are some suggestions in the 4 gospel writers. each of the 4 writers represent different groups of followers and therefore each reports their stories from their own perspective. Matthew a Jew speaks a lot of the Temple and Jewish Laws and how Jesus live in that area. Mark talks mostly to Romans but more broadly Gentiles. He was writing during persecution times and often suggested that Jesus and the Apostles taught in secret to avoid the converts persecution. Luke is speaking to Gentiles outside of Jerusalem. He worked with Paul. John was the youngest of the apostles and His writing talks and suggests Jesus was here from creation He witnesses to Jesus on earth and he is the only one to remain with Mary at Jesus' Persecution and he is trying to strengthened all followers by reminding them to keep their faith. You might benefit by reading a book called Salvation is from the Jews by Roy H. Schoeman, The Biblical Roots of t he Mass by Thomas Nash, or The Lambs, table by Scott Hahn. While there are thousands more that could set you straight; Other than reading a good translation of the first 5 books of the NEW TESTAMENT these books would help. Any religion worth its weight has classes to instruct converts. If you are not wanting to continue your education when you enter any faith you just might have missed the idea or the calling of Jesus Christ. Because anyone who discovers Him is not contented with just knowing about him but ends up craving to know Him better and as much one can. You sound so determined to prove the catholic church wrong how can you claim to know Jesus and even begin to follow Him. He never rejected anyone yet you want to reject a whole group of His followers. Something to think about I guess? Good luck Many of us Catholics will pray for you so that God allows you to understand just what He meant and that you will remove your blinders. Peace. Midget.
     
  15. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    4,935
    Ratings:
    +2,214
    Religion:
    Catholic
    Much is evident in the Church's liturgy.

    Jesus would, before saying his prayers, cover his head with his cloak. This was for the Jew of his period, both an outer garment for warmth and a blanket at night. It would become the Jewish prayer shawl today.
    It is this the “seamless robe” for which soldiers gamble under the cross. It would have been woven in Galilee, probably by Our Lady. Galilee was famous for its fine linen and the processing and weaving of wool. Weaving was the occupation of Galilean women. But did the precision “seamless robe” indicate something else?
    As Jesus put on the tilit it was called,
    he would recite a prayer. This before Vatican II was kept in the prayer a priest said before putting on his robes before Mass. The washing of a priest’s hands before the Eucharist, corresponded to the ablutions of a Jew before prayers.
    Some Jewish and Catholic writers suggest that the Gregorian chant grows out of the Jewish chant and is very close to it. The standing during the gospels is, in Jewish liturgy, the standing for the Torah. The prayers of the offertory are the prayers of the Jewish Benediction before a meal.


    The Sanctus is a direct quote from the Jewish prayer the Quedushah, while the ending of the maranatha when we say “Come Lord Jesus” is there in the invocation for the coming of the Messiah in the Jewish Shemoneh Esreh said daily.

    The structure of the Mass recalls the structure of the Temple service and sacrifice. The beating of the breast at the Kyries repeats the Jewish beating of the breast as a sign of mourning or of repentance.

    The octave after Christmas or Easter, is the week kept by Jews after every major feast. The beni-toi with its holy water, sign of baptism and once placed at the entrance of Catholic homes, takes the place of the Shema Israel encased in the wall before the entry into Jewish homes. And the readings of the Easter Vigil are the Passover readings Our Lord would have known.

    Here we need to be careful of legend.
     
Loading...