Angels

CynthiaCypher said:

'Elohut i.e Godhead : the unknowable aspect of God, which lies beyond His actions or emanations.

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That's true, actually. A lot of the foundational commentaries on Sefer Yetzirah, Sefer ha-Bahir, and the Zohar all discuss Ein Sof (God's aspect as ultimate and infinite) and the top levels of the sefirot (the emanations of divinity throughout creation) as ha-elahut, which is "the Godhead." It is a perfectly viable Kabbalistic term.

I find it hard to see how people can equal something created to the creator himself..

Anyway i belief that Angels were created, they have a form of a ''spirit'' for example the bible contains passages that say when we die we will become like ''Angels'' but my understanding of that scripture is that we will be ''Spirituality being''.

I also belief and mostly is confirmed by scriptures that Angels are servants of god who are given task's by god himself i also belief they are invisible to the human-eye like '''spirits''.

CynthiaCypher said:

'Elohut i.e Godhead : the unknowable aspect of God, which lies beyond His actions or emanations.

God didn't create Wisdom, Wisdom continually emanates from God. Wisdom isn't some static dead thing, it is a living process.

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"Aspect", exactly, same thing as "godhood" ultimately. The "aspect" of "being a god". You could say Ha-Elahut in the same way one uses "godhood" as an adjective as a qualitative noun. Like "The kingship of King George". "The godhood of the angels".

Now I said that "Wisdom" was an actual personified being, this is what Philo explained as the "logos" and is explained in Wisdom of Solomon (which Rabbinicists and Protestants reject for shoddy reasons but was in the DSS). This does not mean that G-d created "Wisdom" as a concept but created a personified being that encompassed the very spirit and nature of Wisdom, it's very similar to your Gnostic idea of Sophia as the first emanation.

F0uad said:

I find it hard to see how people can equal something created to the creator himself..

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All things emanated from God. Therefore all things are God.

Anyway i belief that Angels were created, they have a form of a ''spirit'' for example the bible contains passages that say when we die we will become like ''Angels'' but my understanding of that scripture is that we will be ''Spirituality being''.

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We begin has spirits but we end as matter. If we continue to fall into this trap and false reality we die just like any other animal

"I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are sons of the Most High.
“Nevertheless you will die like men
And fall like any one of the princes.”

Arise, O God, judge the earth!
For it is You who possesses all the nations."

All things emanated from God. Therefore all things are God.

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If you would say we have something ''inside'' us that came from god i would agree but that doesn't make us god in anyway. I would throw my muslim perspective on this and say anything that can be comprehended and explained is not god.

We begin has spirits but we end as matter. If we continue to fall into this trap and false reality we die just like any other animal

"I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are sons of the Most High.
“Nevertheless you will die like men
And fall like any one of the princes.”

Arise, O God, judge the earth!
For it is You who possesses all the nations."

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In my knowledge its forbidden to equal god or hes attributes to other humans/animals anything that exists.
I don't fully understand how we can be ''Spirits'' before we are created i do however understand we were already created in the ''Wisdom/Knowledge'' of god and i would argue that People have a afterlife because how are you going to Kill someone's ''Soul/Spirit''

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Another small example of belief in the angels leading to worldly happiness is this: an innocent child who had learnt his lesson from the [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ilm-i Hal[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif], said to another child who was wailing at the death of his little brother: “Don’t cry, be thankful, because your brother has gone to heaven and is with the angels. He is enjoying himself there and having a better time than us. He is flying around like the angels, and taking a look at everything.” He turned his friend’s woeful tears into happy smiles.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Exactly like that weeping child, in the grim situation of this sorrowful winter I received news of two deaths. One was my nephew, the late Fuad, who had both come first in advanced schools, and had published the truths of the Risale-i Nur. The second was my late sister, called Hanim, a scholar who went on the Hajj and died while circumambulating the Ka‘ba. These deaths of two relatives made me weep, like that of the late Abdurrahman, which is described in the Treatise For The Elderly. Then, through the light of belief I saw in my heart that the innocent Fuad and righteous Hanim had as companions angels and houris in place of humans and had been saved from the perils and sins of this world. Feeling overwhelming joy instead of that searing sorrow, I congratulated both them, and Fuad’s father, Abdülmecid, and myself, and I offered thanks to the Most Merciful of the Merciful. This has been included here as a prayer for mercy for the two departed.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]All the comparisons and allegories in the Risale-i Nur describe the fruits of belief that have as their consequences happiness in this world and the next. In respect of the happiness and pleasures of life they display in this world, those universal and extensive fruits give news that they will gain for man everlasting happiness, indeed, that they will produce shoots and develop in that way. Five of those numerous universal fruits have been written at the end of the Thirty-First Word as fruits of the Ascension, and five are included as examples in the Fifth Branch of the Twenty-Fourth Word.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We said at the beginning that each of the pillars of faith have numerous different fruits, even innumerable fruits, and that similarly, a single fruit of the totality of the fruits is vast Paradise, and another is eternal happiness, while another and perhaps the sweetest is the vision of God. Also some of the fruits of belief yielding happiness in both worlds, this world and the hereafter, have been well described in the comparison at the end of the Thirty-Second Word.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Evidence that belief in Divine Determining yields precious fruits in this world is the fact that the saying “those who believe in Divine Determining are saved from unhappiness” is widely known as a proverb. Two universal fruits of belief in Divine Determining are explained in the fine comparison at the end of the Treatise On Divine Determining, which is about two men who enter the lovely garden of a palace, and I myself in my own life have experienced thousands of times and understood that if one does not believe in Divine Determining, it destroys the happiness of this worldly life. But whenever, in grievous misfortunes, I looked from the point of view of Divine Determining, I saw that they were greatly lightened, and I would be astonished at how those who do not believe it can continue to live.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]One of the universal fruits of the pillar of belief in the angels is alluded to in the Second Station of the Twenty-Second Word like this: supplicating Almighty God, Azra’il (Peace be upon him) said: [/FONT]
“[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Your servants will be vexed at me and complain about me when I carry out my duty of seizing the spirits of the dying.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]He was told in reply: “I shall make illnesses and calamities a veil to your duties, so my servants’ complaints will be directed at them and not at you.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Azra’il’s duty is a veil in exactly the same way that the above are veils, so that unjustified complaints are not directed at Almighty God. For not everyone can see the aspects of wisdom, mercy, beauty, and advantage in death; they see its apparent face and start to object and complain. Azra’il was made a veil so that these unjustified complaints are not directed at the Absolutely Compassionate One. In exactly the same way, the function of all the angels, indeed of all apparent causes, is to be veils to the dignity of dominicality, so that the dignity and holiness of Divine power and comprehensiveness of Divine mercy are preserved in things the beauty of which is not apparent and the wisdom of which is not understood; and they are not the target of objections, and so that in the superficial view Divine power does not appear to be in contact with base, trivial, or cruel things. For the Risale-i Nur has proved definitively with innumerable evidences that the stamps of Divine unity on all things show clearly that no cause has an actual effect or the ability to create. Creation and the giving of existence are particular to Him. Causes are merely a veil. Conscious beings like angels can do nothing other than a sort of voluntary duty in accordance with their natures and active worship which is called ‘acquisition,’ and is insignificant and not creative.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Yes, dignity and grandeur demand that in the view of the mind causes are veils to the hand of power. While unity and oneness demand that causes abstain from having any real effect.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Just as angels and the apparent causes employed in good works pertaining to existence are all means of exonerating dominical power of fault and tyranny in things the beauties of which are not known or seen, and of hallowing it and preserving it from the ascription of fault; so too, satans from among jinn and men and harmful matters being employed in evil matters pertaining to non-existence is to hallow and glorify God by saving Divine power from being the target of complaint and wrongful accusations of cruelty. It is to exonerate Him and declare Him free of all the faults in the universe. For all faults arise from non-existence, or lack of ability, or destruction, or the failure to perform duties, which are all non-existence and acts which are not existent and pertain to non-existence. The faults are ascribed to these satanic and evil veils, the objections and complaints are deservedly directed at them, and they are means of Almighty God being pronounced free of all defect.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In any event, strength or power are not necessary for evil destructive works pertaining to non-existence; sometimes extensive non-existence or destruction may occur through some petty act or insignificant power, or even the failure to perform a duty. It is supposed those doers of evil possess power, but they have no effect other than non-existence and no power other minor ‘acquisition.’ But since the evils arise from non-existence, the doers of evil are the true agents. If they are intelligent beings, they deservedly pay the penalty. That is to say, in evils the perpetrators are the true ‘doers,’ but since good deeds and acts are existent, those who ‘do’ them are not the true ‘doers’ and do not have an actual effect. They are recipients rather, receiving the Divine effulgence; the All-Wise Qur’an states that their reward too is purely a Divine favour, and says:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Whatever good happens to you is from God but whatever evil befalls you is from yourself[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]43[/FONT]


*Azrail: angel of death

Risale-i Nur Collection

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I n S h o r t :[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] While the universes of existence and the innumerable worlds of non-existence clash, producing fruits like Paradise and Hell; and all the worlds of existence declare: “All praise be to God! All praise be to God!” and all the worlds of non-existence declare: “Glory be to God! Glory be to God!”; and while through an all-encompassing law of contest angels and satans, and instances of good and instances of evil, as far as the inspirations and satanic whisperings of the heart, all struggle against each other; a fruit of belief in the angels is suddenly manifested, solving the matter and illuminating the universe. Showing us one of the lights of the verse, [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]God is the Light of the heavens and the earth[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif],[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]44[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]it shows us just how sweet is this fruit.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Twenty-Fourth and Twenty-Ninth Word —the latter of which demonstrates the marvels of the ‘[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]alifs[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]’[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]45[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]— point out a second universal fruit, and prove in brilliant fashion the existence and functions of the angels. Yes, in everything in the universe, particular and universal, in every realm of being, is a compassionate, splendid dominicality which makes itself known and loved. Most certainly it is necessary to respond to that splendour, that compassion, that making known and loved, with thanks and comprehensive, conscious worship, declaring them to be free of all fault. And it is only countless angels that can perform the duty on behalf of unconscious inanimate creatures and the great elements, and can represent the wise, majestic activity of the sovereignty of that dominicality everywhere on the earth, on the Pleiades, in the foundations of the earth, and outside it.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Through this fruit, for example, the creation of the earth and its natural duties, which the soulless laws of philosophy show to be dark and desolate, are placed in luminous familiar fashion on the shoulders of, that is, under the supervision of, two angels called Thawr (the Bull) and Hut (the Fish).[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]46[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] And a truth, a substance of the hereafter called [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]sakhra[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] is sent as an everlasting foundation stone of the transitory earth, that is, as a sign that in the future part of it will be transformed into eternal Paradise, and is made a point of support for the angels Thawr and Hut. This was narrated by the old prophets of the Children of Israel, and also by Ibn ‘Abbas. Unfortunately, in the course of time, this sacred meaning and allegory was taken literally by the ordinary people and acquired a form outside the bounds of reason. Since the angels travel through earth and rock and the centre of the earth the same as they do through the air, they, and the earth, surely have no need of physical rocks and a fish and ox to support them.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Also for example, since the globe utters Divine glorifications to the number of its realms of beings, with tongues to the number of the members of those species, and to the parts, leaves, and fruits of those members, surely there will be an appointed angel with forty thousand heads and forty thousand tongues in each head, each of which will utter forty thousand Divine glorifications, which will know that splendid, unconscious, innate worship, represent it consciously, and offer it to the Divine Court, as the Bringer of Sure News informed us absolutely correctly.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Also, the existence and extraordinary nature of angels like Gabriel (Peace be upon him), who conveys and announces the dominical relations with man, the most important result of the universe’s creation; and Israfil (Peace be upon him) and Azra’il (Peace be upon him), who merely represent the Creator’s most awesome actions in the world of animate beings, which are the raising to life and giving of life, and the release from duties with death, and they supervise them in worshipful manner; and Michael (Peace be upon him) who besides supervising the bounties of the Most Merciful in food, which is the most extensive and most pleasurable mercy in the sphere of life, consciously represents unconscious thanks — the existence and extraordinary nature of angels like these, and the immortality of their spirits, are necessitated by the sovereignty and splendour of dominicality. Their existence and that of their own species is as certain and free of doubt as the existence of the sovereignty and splendour that are to be seen in the universe as clearly as the sun. Comparisons may be made with this for other matters concerning the angels. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Yes, the All-Powerful One of Glory and Beauty created four hundred thousand species of living beings on the earth, and created beings with spirits in great abundance, even out of common and rotting substances, filling everywhere with them. In the face of the miracles of His art He causes them to declare: “What wonders God has willed! How great are God’s blessings! Glory be to God!”, and before the gifts of His mercy: “All praise be to God! All thanks be to God! God is Most Great!” Most certainly and without doubt therefore He created inhabitants and spirit beings suitable for the vast heavens, who never rebel and perform constant worship. Not leaving the heavens empty, He populated them with these beings. He created too countless different sorts of angels, far greater in number than the animal species. Some in tiny form, mount raindrops and snowflakes and applaud the Divine art and mercy in their own tongues. Others mount the travelling stars and on their journeys through space, through their Divine exaltations and pronouncements of Divine Unity, proclaim to the world their worship before the grandeur, splendour and dignity of dominicality. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The agreement of all the revealed scriptures and religions since the time of Adam concerning the existence and worship of the angels, and the numerous unanimous reports in all ages of conversations and meetings of men with the angels, proves that their existence is as certain as the existence of the people of America, whom we have never seen, and that they are concerned with us.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Now come and taste through the light of belief this second universal fruit; see how it fills the universe from end to end, making it beautiful and transforming it into a vast mosque and place of worship. In the face of science and philosophy showing it to be cold, lifeless, dark, and desolate, it shows it to be full of life and light, conscious, familiar, and agreeable, allowing the people of belief to experience a manifestation of the pleasures of immortal life according to their degree, while still in this world.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]C o n c l u s i o n :[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Since through the mysteries of Divine unity and oneness, the same power, the same Names, the same wisdom, and the same art are found in every part of the universe, the Creator’s unity, disposal, giving of existence, dominicality, creativity, and sacredness are proclaimed through the tongues of disposition of all creatures, particular and universal. So too He created the angels, and caused the glorifications which all creatures offer unconsciously through the tongues of their beings to be offered consciously through the worshipful tongues of the angels. None of the angels’ actions are in any respect contrary to the Divine command. Apart from pure worship, they do nothing; they bring nothing into being, can intervene in nothing unless commanded, and cannot intercede even, without permission. They manifest to the utmost the meaning of: [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]They are [but] servants raised to honour. * They speak not before He speaks, and they act [in all things] by His command[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]47[/FONT]

Risale-i Nur Collection

Marble said:

Who are they? Why did God create them?

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Like.. Different officer's are kept for different works in different departments by the government to run different works of the country. Similary they are created by god to run the work of this whole universe.

Can a mortal become an angel?

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No, They are like good officer's on duty.

Here's the perspective I've got....I quote myself...

It came up in another thread....
Thought I would put on top for better responses.

The name Satan means....adversary....devil...
When capitalized it refers to the personification of God's Adversary.
Here is something I post now and then....I quote myself...

"There is a long standing belief that the fall of the angelic..one third of heaven...was brought on by a division....an argument.

God, having made Man...a little less than the angelic...said to the angels...
"Man is fragile...follow after him and see to it, that he dash not his toes...nor his head."

One third of the angelic said "nay".
"For that Man is less than we are... He should be made to serve us."

There is nothing wrong in that logic.
Man does so unto lesser creatures in every way.

We... chain our dogs, and expect their loyalty...keeping to one master...even though it is their nature to run free in packs, and hunt at will.
We.... saddle and bridle our horses...and expect them to take us wherever we desire...and we break their spirits that they will obey.
We.... cage little birds..that they sing for our pleasure...but the little creature sings for a mate he will never find. There will be no nest...no offspring...and he will die in his solitude.
We...readily kill anything that cannot be made to serve us...any disobedient animal.

A fight broke out. Brother angel against Brother angel.
One third of the angelic fell from grace...losing their positions in heaven.
They lost their place because of an argument...concerning something that looks like you.

They want you dead.

Two thirds of heaven lost their Brothers because of an
argument...concerning something that looks like you.

Do you not bear resemblance to the one third fallen?
Do you not perform unto lesser things...and your fellowman ...as you will?

Are you not concerned..what...or who...will be standing over you...
When you lay down to breath your last breathe?"

This would be how, one third of the angelic became adversaries to Man.
(end quote)

That's the situation I see.

From the Baha'i scriptures:

86 "And now, concerning His words: 'And He shall send His angels....' By 'angels' is meant those who, reinforced by the power of the spirit, have consumed, with the fire of the love of God, all human traits and limitations, and have clothed themselves with the attributes of the most exalted beings....

87 "And now, inasmuch as these holy beings have sanctified themselves from every human limitation, have become endowed with the attributes of the spiritual, and have been adorned with the noble traits of the blessed, they therefore have been designated as 'angels.' Such is the meaning of these verses...."

-- The Book of Certitude, pp. 78-80

Thus angels are people who have become completely spiritual!


Best!

Bruce

Angels are also people who are the companions of Messengers and Prophets.
For example when Muhammad appeared, His companions were called angles, but because other people take the scripture literal, they asked Him, why no angel came with you, if you are really a messenger. Thus God left them in confusion because they didn't know....
Angel is just a parable for godly people.

See Quran verses for what I said above.

What does this mean:

"The legs of the lame are not equal: so is a parable in the mouth of fools." ( Proverbs 26:7, The Bible);

"Thus have their superstitions become veils between them and their own hearts and kept them from the path of God, the Exalted, the Great." Baha'u'llah

Shermana said:

There is no such thing as "The Godhead", the articulated use of this word is an invention of Trinitarians. The word 'Godhead" is olde English for "godhood". Jesus had Godhead. Angels had "Godhead" since they are called "gods". With that, I don't necessarily see the difference between an emanation and a creation, if the original god emanated them, that means He willfully made them. One thing Gnostics and Ancient Jews both had in common was a belief that a personified being called "Wisdom" was the first-created being. Perhaps they may diverge on whether it was created or not.

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Wisdom,would that be considered the "Word" also,Being the first created being?In the Bible it calls the 'Word' the first created being.

God needs to learn?

Marble said:

Who are they?
Why did God create them?
Can a mortal become an angel?
In Christianity angels always have male names, but I suppose angels are genderless?
Can angels (other than Lucifer) fall from heaven?
Does each person have a personal guardian angel, and can this angel be seen & spoken with?

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They are tormentors:

From another thread moments ago...I quote myself...

It does seem that God is taking a backseat position to all of this.
Letting you become whatever person you will become.
Allowing whatever manner of thought you decide upon to be yours.

And then say nothing as the angels do what is needful...
to maintain peace in heaven. (end quote)

Angels carry swords.
Swords sever the living from the dead.

Marble said:

Who are they?

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Superstitious myths.

Why did God create them?

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People created them from their imaginations.

Can a mortal become an angel?

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Yes, we can become anything we imagine in our imaginations.

In Christianity angels always have male names, but I suppose angels are genderless?

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Like most bronze age or medieval religions, misogyny reigns supreme.

Can angels (other than Lucifer) fall from heaven?

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Ones imagination can allow angels to do anything. They can go bowling if you want.

Does each person have a personal guardian angel, and can this angel be seen & spoken with?

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Yes, but this condition is often associated with schizophrenia or some similar mental disorder.

A Troubled Man said:

Superstitious myths.
People created them from their imaginations.

Yes, we can become anything we imagine in our imaginations.

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No life after death for you then?

Thief said:

No life after death for you then?

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Odd how you don't even see the contradiction of your question.

A Troubled Man said:

Odd how you don't even see the contradiction of your question.

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Try expounding, instead of simple denial.

my Gnostic/Simonian opinions about angels:

Who are they?
celestial beings formed by God who became the gods of ancient nations, cultures

Why did God create them?
God sent them to order the Cosmos and teach the People about Him, but instead the angels established their own kingdoms and teachings, and proclaimed that they were the ruling gods of the Cosmos.

Can a mortal become an angel?
Yes, God grants angelic status to mortals

In Christianity angels always have male names, but I suppose angels are genderless?
Angels have Gender, both male and female

Can angels (other than Lucifer) fall from heaven?
Many angels fell from God's grace when they became selfish and wanted to rule by themselves in the Lower Heaven (the visible material Cosmos) without revealing the Upper Heaven to People, the dwelling place of the Highest God who was their Father.