Is the Religious Right in America gunning for you?

[SkepticThinker]

I just quoted an atheist who said just that. Want some more?
William Provine: atheists have no free will, no moral accountability and no moral significance:

"Let me summarize my views on what modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear — and these are basically Darwin’s views. There are no gods, no purposes, and no goal-directed forces of any kind. There is no life after death. When I die, I am absolutely certain that I am going to be dead. That’s the end of me. There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning in life, and no free will for humans, either."

Richard Dawkins:

In a universe of blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, or any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference… DNA neither knows nor cares. DNA just is. And we dance to its music. (Richard Dawkins, River Out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life (1995))

Instead of talking to atheists who aren't here, how about conversing with the ones who are, and with what they are saying?? You do realize that the only thing atheists really share in common is their lack of belief in god(s), right? We can and do differ on pretty much everything else.

If you want to talk to Jerry Coyne and Richard Dawkins about it, I'd suggest sending them an email or something. Funny how you didn't quote like, Sam Harris or Matt Dillahunty though. As in, atheists who have spent a lot of time thinking and pontificating specifically about human morality.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Like I said, you just don't get it.
I can refrain from killing you because I don't feel the need. That's not the same as having a legitimate moral reason for not killing you. Atheists may abide by all the same rules, but that doesn't mean they have a moral reason, it's just more convenient not to get arrested... that's not morality.

You really think atheists don't kill people because "it's just more convenient not to get arrested" .... ?
Like, for real?

 

[SkepticThinker]

As I've said before, Penn Jillette hit the nail on the head when he said, "The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want?" And my answer is: I rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero. The fact that these people think that if they didn’t have this person watching over them, they would go on killing and raping rampages is the most self-damning thing I can imagine. " He was spot on with his quote.

Lastly, you and I can both say that abandoning our belief in God and our Christian faith was the best decision for us. It was truly a relief for me after I let go of the fearmongering of Christianity: fear of God, shame of disobeying God, worry that I'd lose my salvation if I sinned against God and then died, and a constant fear of going to hell even though I accepted Jesus as my savior (Matt. 7:21-23).

You beat me to it! I was just about to post this.

 

[Wildswanderer]

You really think atheists don't kill people because "it's just more convenient not to get arrested" .... ?
Like, for real?

What they usually claim is that they follow the morals of their society, because it's the right thing to do. Again that's completely subjective. It's another way of saying it's more convenient to act like the majority because it makes life easier.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Instead of talking to atheists who aren't here, how about conversing with the ones who are, and with what they are saying?? Y

I am and they consistently illustrate that they have no basis for morality.

 

[Wildswanderer]

I disagree.

About what? Where do you find room for free will in a universe created by blind causation? It's like a man swinging his arms in a dark room, the atheist's universe has no guidance, it just does what it does for no discernable reason and that determines what everyone and everything else does.

 

[SkepticThinker]

What they usually claim is that they follow the morals of their society, because it's the right thing to do. Again that's completely subjective. It's another way of saying it's more convenient to act like the majority because it makes life easier.

How about going with the claims of the actual atheists you're conversing with on this board, at this moment, instead of alluding to other people?

I've never heard any person, of any stripe, say the reason they don't kill people is because "it's just more convenient not to get arrested." Have you?

 

[SkepticThinker]

I am and they consistently illustrate that they have no basis for morality.

I just gave you one and so did another poster.

You have yet to demonstrate that your idea of obedience to authority is a system of morality and that it's not subjective. Just declaring it so, doesn't make it so.

 

[SkepticThinker]

About what? Where do you find room for free will in a universe created by blind causation? It's like a man swinging his arms in a dark room, the atheist's universe has no guidance, it just does what it does for no discernable reason and that determines what everyone and everything else does.

Jerry Coyne's ideas about morality.

I just described my views on morality to you, and oddly enough, you cut them out of my post and completely ignored them.

 

[Wildswanderer]

That simply is not true.

What we cannot do is to form scientific hypotheses or theories about that which cannot be observed.

If you allow the possibility of purpose in the universe, you start to see why everything looks like it was created. And that's not breaking any laws of science.

 

[SkepticThinker]

If you allow the possibility of purpose in the universe, you start to see why everything looks like it was created. And that's not breaking any laws of science.

When did someone demonstrate that possibility and what the purpose is?

 

[Wildswanderer]

I just gave you one and so did another

The same totally subjective " reason" over and over. Yawn.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The same totally subjective " reason" over and over. Yawn.

Right back at you.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Right back at you.

There's nothing subjective about a supreme authority. When we stopped taking the commandments seriously, the nation went downhill fast.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

There's nothing subjective about a supreme authority. When we stopped taking the commandments seriously, the nation went downhill fast.

Yes, there is. Because your subjective version is not the only one.

So here is how it works. You claim subjectively that God is X. I do the same for God is not X, but Y. You then subjectively claim that it is objective. I just do the same. That is how that works.

 

[SkepticThinker]

The same totally subjective " reason" over and over. Yawn.

I explained how the subjective idea of well-being, can be translated into objective realities about the world we live in and the effects our actions have in that world.

You've explained a "system" where you just do what you're told, based on what an invisible deity wants, which by definition is also subjective.

So now what?

 

[Revoltingest]

Lastly, you and I can both say that abandoning our belief in God and our Christian faith was the best decision for us. It was truly a relief for me after I let go of the fearmongering of Christianity: fear of God, shame of disobeying God, worry that I'd lose my salvation if I sinned against God and then died, and a constant fear of going to hell even though I accepted Jesus as my savior (Matt. 7:21-23).

I once worked at a gym where the janitor was a Christian.
He said he had only one worry...after doing evil things,
he was concerned that he might die before he could
get home to pray for forgiveness. This was necessary
to avoid going to Hell. So he did as he pleased, knowing
it's wrong, but with salvation achieved by evening prayer.

Others have told me that salvation is gained by belief
alone, with "good works" being unnecessary, & wrongful
acts being no problem. It's justified by accepting that
human beings are imperfect, & that all sin.

Weird, eh. I'm not seeing a strong enforcement of morals.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I am sorry you feel you shouldn’t have been born. You don’t have to be abusive just because your parents were, do you? I wasn’t referring to you in particular not being abused if you had never been born, since obviously if you never existed your abuse wouldn’t have occurred. I just meant that abuse still happens, irregardless of abortion. In other words having abortion available does not prevent child abuse.

I maintain that there are people who should be fixed so they can never reproduce.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

That’s not what the text indicates. Rather, she ate it because she believed the lie that by doing so she would become like God.

The first few words involved were how she thought it looked delicious.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You apparently missed the part about a deterministic Universe? If that's true they only do what they are programmed to do. No outside guidance? That means they have no choice.

Huh? Where did that come from?