Is the Religious Right in America gunning for you?

[Sheldon]

Science cannot figure in an infinite being, because they refuse to consider the possibility of purpose in the universe.

Science can consider anything, it just rejects unfalsifiable claims, as they are meaningless, and obviously cannot examine a claim for which no empirical data can be demonstrated. It isn't science's fault that theists can offer nothing for science to examine, but when it does and disproves theistic claims, it's science's fault as well. You have to laugh at anyone too dumb to see the bias involved there.

 

[Sheldon]

I just quoted an atheist who said just that.

Not in your quote he didn't, and your link doesn't work.

 

[Sheldon]

Only thosands of people change their religion every year, so no.

Wow, thousands you say. You may want to look the words most and history up in a dictionary.

 

[Sheldon]

Like I said, you just don't get it.
I can refrain from killing you because I don't feel the need. That's not the same as having a legitimate moral reason for not killing you.

I have a legitimate moral reason, more than one, and I am an atheist. If you could reason beyond the most facile bombast I'd explain, but is seems a waste tbh.

Atheists may abide by all the same rules, but that doesn't mean they have a moral reason, it's just more convenient not to get arrested... that's not morality.

Be a dear and link the research supporting this ludicrous claim, that purports to know what atheists think.

Thanks for the belly laugh though, blindly following laws isn't moral, I'm guessing the irony is lost on you.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You haven't demonstrated that atheists have any basis for morality.
It's not subjective when there's a higher authority involved. Moral equals obedience to God and immoral equals disobedience.
Here’s prominent atheist Jerry Coyne’s editorial in USA Today to explain why atheists can’t ground free will.

Excerpt:

"And that’s what neurobiology is telling us: Our brains are simply meat computers that, like real computers, are programmed by our genes and experiences to convert an array of inputs into a predetermined output. Recent experiments involving brain scans show that when a subject “decides” to push a button on the left or right side of a computer, the choice can be predicted by brain activity at least seven seconds before the subject is consciously aware of having made it. (These studies use crude imaging techniques based on blood flow, and I suspect that future understanding of the brain will allow us to predict many of our decisions far earlier than seven seconds in advance.) “Decisions” made like that aren’t conscious ones. And if our choices are unconscious, with some determined well before the moment we think we’ve made them, then we don’t have free will in any meaningful sense."

If you don’t have free will, then you can’t make moral choices, and you can’t be held morally responsible. No free will means no morality.

Even many Christians have rejected the idea of free will.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Like I said, you just don't get it.
I can refrain from killing you because I don't feel the need. That's not the same as having a legitimate moral reason for not killing you. Atheists may abide by all the same rules, but that doesn't mean they have a moral reason, it's just more convenient not to get arrested... that's not morality.

Doing what a book tells you isn't morality, it's blind conformity.
Atheists, on the other hand, not only do they have a sense of empathy that almost all humans possess they have to think things about things and think them through.
Being able to behave in a pro-social manner without outside direction and guidance is morality.

 

[InChrist]

Yes. I don’t have children because my family tree is in desperate need of withering away. Not sure how you think they can abuse me if I were never born.

I am sorry you feel you shouldn’t have been born. You don’t have to be abusive just because your parents were, do you? I wasn’t referring to you in particular not being abused if you had never been born, since obviously if you never existed your abuse wouldn’t have occurred. I just meant that abuse still happens, irregardless of abortion. In other words having abortion available does not prevent child abuse.

 

[InChrist]

Not a single episode suggests that they are mentally mature. Eve ate the fruit because it looked delicious. She didn’t give a dissertation on the philosophy of disobedience.

That’s not what the text indicates. Rather, she ate it because she believed the lie that by doing so she would become like God.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Doing what a book tells you isn't morality, it's blind conformity.
Atheists, on the other hand, not only do they have a sense of empathy that almost all humans possess they have to think things about things and think them through.
Being able to behave in a pro-social manner without outside direction and guidance is morality.

As I've said before, Penn Jillette hit the nail on the head when he said, "The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want?" And my answer is: I rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero. The fact that these people think that if they didn’t have this person watching over them, they would go on killing and raping rampages is the most self-damning thing I can imagine. " He was spot on with his quote.

Lastly, you and I can both say that abandoning our belief in God and our Christian faith was the best decision for us. It was truly a relief for me after I let go of the fearmongering of Christianity: fear of God, shame of disobeying God, worry that I'd lose my salvation if I sinned against God and then died, and a constant fear of going to hell even though I accepted Jesus as my savior (Matt. 7:21-23).

 

[Viker]

As I've said before, Penn Jillette hit the nail on the head when he said, "The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want?" And my answer is: I rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero. The fact that these people think that if they didn’t have this person watching over them, they would go on killing and raping rampages is the most self-damning thing I can imagine. " He was spot on with his quote.

Lastly, you and I can both say that abandoning our belief in God and our Christian faith was the best decision for us. It was truly a relief for me after I let go of the fearmongering of Christianity: fear of God, shame of disobeying God, worry that I'd lose my salvation if I sinned against God and then died, and a constant fear of going to hell even though I accepted Jesus as my savior (Matt. 7:21-23).

A belief in God has never stopped anyone from murdering or raping. People are going to do whatever it is they are going to regardless of beliefs. And most people who have a belief or don't have a belief do not go about killing and raping, drugging, commiting criminal mayhem, etc.

I never understood why people use that line. It's one of the lowliest proselytizing lines available.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Yes. I don’t have children because my family tree is in desperate need of withering away. Not sure how you think they can abuse me if I were never born.

I know the feeling of wishing I had never been born, so I sympathize with you. My feelings were coupled with the fact that I foolishly prayed to God countless times while growing up, asking him to save me from the abuse I was suffering at home and the bullying and harassment I endured in school. And despite my frantic prayers to God, pleading with him to save me, I suffered constant abuse at home for 13 1/2 years, and I endured bullying and harassment for the 12 years I was in school. As far as I'm concerned, God is no different than my extended family, my neighbors, and my teachers, who all willingly turned a blind eye to the horrific abuse I suffered at home and the bullying I endured in school. None of these people ever lifted a finger to help me, and neither did God. I guess I just wasn't worth the trouble. If God is real, then I think he's a cruel and heartless monster who isn't worthy of my worship and reverence.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

A belief in God has never stopped anyone from murdering or raping. People are going to do whatever it is they are going to regardless of beliefs. And most people who have a belief or don't have a belief do not go about killing and raping, drugging, commiting criminal mayhem, etc.

I never understood why people use that line. It's one of the lowliest proselytizing lines available.

I hear you, and I agree with you.

I can think of several Christians that I wouldn't dare be alone in the same room with. I wouldn't trust them if my life depended on it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

As I've said before, Penn Jillette hit the nail on the head when he said, "The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want?" And my answer is: I rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero. The fact that these people think that if they didn’t have this person watching over them, they would go on killing and raping rampages is the most self-damning thing I can imagine. " He was spot on with his quote.

My issue with that thinking is it doesn't realize why Christians think that way. The Bible is an excessively long list of thou shalt nots that are their instructions. As such they are constantly having to tell themselves no, label innocent things as temptation, and fight to resist.
Atheists (and many other theists) have none of that, and I feel it gets lost on many of them because they don't realize Christians don't know how to approach morality beyond their religion, a religion that does state you have to be a believer to be a good person, and when they see an atheist with none of the same stuff it is equally lost on them how an atheist can morally function.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

My issue with that thinking is it doesn't realize why Christians think that way. The Bible is an excessively long list of thou shalt nots that are their instructions. As such they are constantly having to tell themselves no, label innocent things as temptation, and fight to resist.
Atheists (and many other theists) have none of that, and I feel it gets lost on many of them because they don't realize Christians don't know how to approach morality beyond their religion, a religion that does state you have to be a believer to be a good person, and when they see an atheist with none of the same stuff it is equally lost on them how an atheist can morally function.

I see your point and you're right. The indoctrination of Christianity can run deep in a person's life, and it can be very difficult to break away from. I know that from personal experience, but disavowing my faith in God was still the best decision I've ever made for myself.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I see your point and you're right. The indoctrination of Christianity can run deep in a person's life, and it can be very difficult to break away from. I know that from personal experience, but disavowing my faith in God was still the best decision I've ever made for myself.

With those ways of thinking, it probably is up to us apostates to explain this to those who have never been to bridge that gap of knowledge.

but disavowing my faith in God was still the best decision I've ever made for myself.

It would do Christians just as much good to start taking us seriously instead of denouncing us and saying we didn't really believe. It's easier on them to assume we didn't, but Jesus warned it would be better to meet your end mobster-style than drive people away from him, so they should really start taking us seriously. After all, it's been said for centuries at least now that Christianity makes people into atheists.
And that we are so insistent it such a wonderful and liberating thing to leave, they should also really take note of that.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Doing what a book tells you isn't morality, it's blind conformity.
Atheists, on the other hand, not only do they have a sense of empathy that almost all humans possess they have to think things about things and think them through.
Being able to behave in a pro-social manner without outside direction and guidance is morality.

You apparently missed the part about a deterministic Universe? If that's true they only do what they are programmed to do. No outside guidance? That means they have no choice.

 

[metis]

Science cannot figure in an infinite being, because they refuse to consider the possibility of purpose in the universe.

That simply is not true.

What we cannot do is to form scientific hypotheses or theories about that which cannot be observed.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You haven't demonstrated that atheists have any basis for morality.

I take my morality from the assessment of the consequences of my actions on myself and those around me, with the goal of the well-being of humans (and sentient creatures) in mind. In any given situation, there are objectively good or bad actions to take, in regards to what effect they have on well-being. The ones that contribute to well-being are good actions, and the ones that detract from well-being. I think this is just about as objective as we are able to get about it.

It's not subjective when there's a higher authority involved. Moral equals obedience to God and immoral equals disobedience.

How is it not subjective, when it's up to the whim of an invisible deity? I.e. It's based on that deity's opinion of what is right or wrong for humans.
By the way, this is a deity that nobody can show exists or ever dictated any morality to anyone. Not to mention the fact I brought up earlier of all the different human interpretations of what this deity supposedly wants which as far as I can tell, are just a reflection of the values they already hold.

If morals equal obedience to God, then you've just made my point for me. If God says murder is morally right, then it is. If God says rape is morally right, then it is. Just shut up and do what you're told. That's not a moral system, imo. Obedience to whatever some authority says isn't a system of morality; it's a system of dictates and obedience to authority, aka a dictatorship.

Here’s prominent atheist Jerry Coyne’s editorial in USA Today to explain why atheists can’t ground free will.

Excerpt:

"And that’s what neurobiology is telling us: Our brains are simply meat computers that, like real computers, are programmed by our genes and experiences to convert an array of inputs into a predetermined output. Recent experiments involving brain scans show that when a subject “decides” to push a button on the left or right side of a computer, the choice can be predicted by brain activity at least seven seconds before the subject is consciously aware of having made it. (These studies use crude imaging techniques based on blood flow, and I suspect that future understanding of the brain will allow us to predict many of our decisions far earlier than seven seconds in advance.) “Decisions” made like that aren’t conscious ones. And if our choices are unconscious, with some determined well before the moment we think we’ve made them, then we don’t have free will in any meaningful sense."

If you don’t have free will, then you can’t make moral choices, and you can’t be held morally responsible. No free will means no morality.

I disagree.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yet atheists manage to be moral, go figure. It also seems oddly inconsistent to claim free will essential to morality, then insist the only basis for morality is to surrender it. and blindly follow rules cherry picked from an archaic unevidenced superstition.

Good point!

 

[SkepticThinker]

Science cannot figure in an infinite being, because they refuse to consider the possibility of purpose in the universe.

You should go ahead and demonstrate it to them then! What are you waiting for?