Does Quran disagree with a portion of the Bible?

[firedragon]

These Mutishabihaat are mainly prophecies about future Messenger.

Absolutely bogus.

Ill ask you a question since you making claims.

What does Shubbiha mean?

 

[firedragon]

You have said:
"Earliest bibles like sinaiticus is different to the latest bibles."

There could be minor differences, but nothing major that actually have an affect of beliefs.
Are you saying that in early Bible, Jesus was not crucified and in later copies, Jesus is said He was crucified?
Are you saying in old Bible it did not say Jesus is the Son of God, but in later version this is added?
When you say they are different, the question is "how much changed"? 1 percent? 10 percent? 50 percent? Did the change include any fundamental Christians belief?

Not minor differences. I have told you repeatedly in this very thread. Strange you ignore all of them. I mean its weird.

Shepard of hermas. Epistle of Barnabas. Letters of clement.

So please try not to pretend its not been made clear to you.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Who said God did not want to guide them? Why that strawman?

God says in the Quran that every nation has received a messenger. Many came before Jesus. Why do you focus on Jesus? Why not Abraham? He was given scripture too.

It is logical, not a strawman.

If people did not live in the years Abraham, Moses and Jesus walked the earth, who gave the teachings of God, but were not left the teachings, how could they corrupt them?

Is God unjust? Would people will be judged without having access to the Revelation God has given?

What of the 590 odd years between Christ and Muhammad? If they were not left the revelation of Christ, how can they possibly corrupt a Message they have not got?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It will be very obvious to all when the Messiah returns.
He will have great support from amongst the believers.

Which the Bab and Baha'u'llah did have, until the wayward started wiping them from the face of this earth.

The Bab, Baha'u'llah and Abdul'baha even forgave those actions. All they asked is that they return to God.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The pro one who seems to always know that god doesn’t mean what he

@InvestigateTruth only offers what the Bab, Baha'u'llah, Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi offered.

So you may want to consider, when mocking believers, who only offer in good faith, what they have been shown by Allah, a part of that mocking may come back to one's own self.

Is there not a lot of advice about that in the Quran? Such as,

9:65 "If you question them, they will certainly say, “We were only talking idly and joking around.” Say, “Was it Allah, His revelations, and His Messenger that you ridiculed?”

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Reading this OP, I say thank God for the Revelations of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Now we can see, in new light, all the Messengers are offering the same One God and that God does guide us in past scriptures, that rejecting every aspect of them is not valid.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Not minor differences. I have told you repeatedly in this very thread. Strange you ignore all of them. I mean its weird.

Shepard of hermas. Epistle of Barnabas. Letters of clement.

So please try not to pretend its not been made clear to you.

That is not change in the text. What you are saying is, in early Bible, they had included Epistle of Barnabas, but later removed it.
This is not alteration in the text. The revelation of Bible is not like Quran. So, it is not like if Surrahs of Quran were removed. The New Testament have chapters which are conversations of Jesus (Gospels). These were always included in the Bible. Nothing was removed from them. Some other parts of the Bible are Prophecies, such as the Book of Revelation. This was never changed, removed or added to it.
The prophecies come from God. So, we know these are from God.
But some parts of the Bible are letters of Paul who had a very good understanding of Jesus teachings. His words are not words of God, but his writing is inspired by teachings of Jesus, and His explanations helps with application and interpretation of the Gospels.
Epistle of Barnabas at best, could be like letters of Paul. So, even if it contains true understanding of Gospels, removing it from Bible in wise means, the Text of Gospel was changed. It is like some Hadithes in Sunni collection which are not directly attributed to Muhammad, but are the words of close companions. So, even if some sects of Islam consider them as guidance, while some others don't, it does not mean the Quran was altered. Because the chapters of Bible is not like Surrahs of the Quran. It is not like Epistle of Barnabas was like a Surrah, and now it is not there anymore.

 

[firedragon]

If people did not live in the years Abraham, Moses and Jesus walked the earth, who gave the teachings of God, but were not left the teachings, how could they corrupt them?

So you are God!

 

[firedragon]

That is not change in the text.

Yes yes. Not changing text. Just adding and removing entire books.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So you are God!

I have an answer to that question given by a Messenger from God.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

I have an answer to that question given by a Messenger from God.

Regards Tony

Actually, you are speaking for God. God is absolutely flawed in your theology. That means you are God.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Actually, you are speaking for God.

That could be a reflection of one's own stance.

God is absolutely flawed in your theology.

That could be the reflection of one's own stance.

I do not have a theology that is mine. If you are offering that the Message of Baha’u’llah, which I share with you, is flawed, that is indeed your prerogative.

That means you are God.

If you wish to run with these accusations, then they are just as valid to one's own stance.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

If you wish to run with these accusations, then they are just as valid to one's own stance.

Can you explain how you could speak on behalf of God with him not making any explicit statement saying "I gave a book in written form to Moses" in the Quran?

Are you God or a superior God to GOd?

Thanks.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Can you explain how you could speak on behalf of God with him not making any explicit statement saying "I gave a book in written form to Moses" in the Quran?

Are you God or a superior God to GOd?

Thanks.

That makes absolutely no sense at all.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

That makes absolutely no sense at all.

Regards Tony

You making claims "FOR GOD" with out any evidence from the Qur'an while claiming its "Gods word" makes no sense at all.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You making claims "FOR GOD" with out any evidence from the Qur'an while claiming its "Gods word" makes no sense at all.

Well the Quran to me is very clear that Allah gave the Messengers scripture, including the Torah and Gospel, how otherwise can the followers be people of the sceipture?

[4:171] O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, “Three”; desist – it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

[5:46] And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.

[2:87] And We did certainly give Moses the Torah and followed up after him with messengers. And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the Pure Spirit. But is it [not] that every time a messenger came to you, [O Children of Israel], with what your souls did not desire, you were arrogant? And a party [of messengers] you denied and another party you killed.

[2:136] Say, [O believers], “We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him.”

[2:253] Those messengers – some of them We caused to exceed others. Among them were those to whom Allah spoke, and He raised some of them in degree. And We gave Jesus, the Son of Mary, clear proofs, and We supported him with the Pure Spirit. If Allah had willed, those [generations] succeeding them would not have fought each other after the clear proofs had come to them. But they differed, and some of them believed and some of them disbelieved. And if Allah had willed, they would not have fought each other, but Allah does what He intends.

[3:84] Say, “We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him.”

[4:163] Indeed, We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], as We revealed to Noah and the prophets after him. And we revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, the Descendants, Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the book [of Psalms].

There is likely more, but I would offer how much more clear can it be?

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

Well the Quran to me is very clear that Allah gave the Messengers scripture, including the Torah and Gospel, how otherwise can the followers be people of the sceipture?

Again, not a single verse says that the Torah was given to Musa or Moses. So you just sidestepped it. Unlike you Tony, many people have read and studied the Quran fully. At least, read the Quran fully prior to making such facade claims.

In the Quran it speaks of many who received revelation.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Again, not a single verse says that the Torah was given to Musa or Moses. So you just sidestepped it. Unlike you Tony, many people have read and studied the Quran fully. At least, read the Quran fully prior to making such facade claims.

In the Quran it speaks of many who received revelation.

[2:87] And We did certainly give Moses the Torah and followed up after him with messengers. And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the Pure Spirit. But is it [not] that every time a messenger came to you, [O Children of Israel], with what your souls did not desire, you were arrogant? And a party [of messengers] you denied and another party you killed.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

[2:87] And We did certainly give Moses the Torah and followed up after him with messengers. And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the Pure Spirit. But is it [not] that every time a messenger came to you, [O Children of Israel], with what your souls did not desire, you were arrogant? And a party [of messengers] you denied and another party you killed.

Regards Tony

Cmon Tony. This verse does say the Torah was given to Moses. Good god mate. Please try to be a little more sophisticated. If your theology is wholly based on peoples interpolations, you should check your self.

This verse only says Kithab, and does not say Torah. What ever you cut and paste scholarship is, it is an opinion of someone. Not the arabic text. Please move beyond cut and paste scholarship to prove your theology.

The Quran also speaks of the Suhufi Ibrahima wa moosa. What is this revelation given to Abraham and Moses both? Do you really think its the pentateuch in the Tanakh? Both Abraham and Moses were given the same five books? Is that your theology? Can you reconcile that?

Move beyond this. If you are trying to spread your religion so passionately its fine. But when making such claims, at least get yourself a little bit of reading outside your bahai website.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Cmon Tony. This verse does say the Torah was given to Moses. Good god mate. Please try to be a little more sophisticated. If your theology is wholly based on peoples interpolations, you should check your self.

This verse only says Kithab, and does not say Torah. What ever you cut and paste scholarship is, it is an opinion of someone. Not the arabic text. Please move beyond cut and paste scholarship to prove your theology.

The Quran also speaks of the Suhufi Ibrahima wa moosa. What is this revelation given to Abraham and Moses both? Do you really think its the pentateuch in the Tanakh? Both Abraham and Moses were given the same five books? Is that your theology? Can you reconcile that?

Move beyond this. If you are trying to spread your religion so passionately its fine. But when making such claims, at least get yourself a little bit of reading outside your bahai website.

Are you saying we are being deceived because we speak English?

And We did certainly give Moses the Scripture [i.e., the Torah] and followed up after him with messengers.— Saheeh International

Indeed, We gave Mūsā the Book, and after him We sent messengers,— Mufti Taqi Usmani

And indeed We already brought Musa (Moses) the Book, and We made to supervene the (other) Messengers even after him— Dr. Ghali

We gave Moses the Scripture and We sent messengers after him in succession.— Abdul Haleem

Surely We gave Moses the Scripture and caused a train of Messengers
— Tafheem-ul-Quran - Abul Ala Maududi

Are they all trying to deceive the English speaking population?

All we are proving here is that Allah gave Abraham, Moses, Jesus and the Messengers Scripture. It is Allah that allows how they are distributed to humanity, albeit by verbal distribution prior to being put to a written script.

Maybe the issue for many Muslims would be that when we determine that the Torah and the Gospel are still reliable spiritual guides, and that we find that the Message of Islam is indeed foretold of in those books, then that allows the greater possibility that the Bab and Baha'u'llah are also legitimate

Regards Tony