Does Quran disagree with a portion of the Bible?

[stanberger]

today most muslims do not have Hadith books at home. hadiths teach the physical aspects of islam. how/when to pray. go to haj fast ramadan. today families teach their kids these things stay close to quran [word of god] you'll never go astray

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Qur'an says that these so called "Unspecific" verses will be exploited by people who delve in them to create their own stories like you do. Quran has a specific number of verses. It cannot go explaining every thing in the whole world. Some verses are left "unspecific" so what you are doing is taking those verses, and making a whole theology around those verses ignoring the whole Qur'an which have very specific verses all over it.

So this is an exploitation.

Remember, God is all-powerful. If God wanted, He could have revealed thousands more verses, and explain everything in more details in the Quran. It is not like God was incapable of explaining everything, and just had to leave some verses unspecified. Your logic is just like how you believe, God left Jews and Christians with an illegitimate Book for thousands of years, and even when Jesus came, they wanted to kill Him, so, God had to take Jesus up, so they don't kill His messenger, and thus according to your explanation God was defeated, because not only He did not leave a proper guidance, but also, He was incapable of completing His religion for the Jews and Christians and later He also had to leave some verses in Quran unspecified. Do you see how you view God?

 

[firedragon]

Remember, God is all-powerful. If God wanted, He could have revealed thousands more verses, and explain everything in more details in the Quran. It is not like God was incapable of explaining everything, and just had to leave some verses unspecified. Your logic is just like how you believe, God left Jews and Christians with an illegitimate Book for thousands of years, and even when Jesus came, they wanted to kill Him, so, God had to take Jesus up, so they don't kill His messenger, and thus according to your explanation God was defeated, because not only He did not leave a proper guidance, but also, He was incapable of completing His religion for the Jews and Christians and later He also had to leave some verses in Quran unspecified. Do you see how you view God?

Well, these so called "unspecified" verses do not have any bearing in the theology. For example, the verse about la moosiyoona is unspecified. Its not absolutely clear for people prior to the 20th century. Only later humans discovered the validity of it. So if you wish to exploit it which is not affecting the theology of God being the one, necessary, etc, then you are just exploiting it. But one day it will come to light. And it already has come to light.

Also you made things up in your post. I mean just made up. There is no indication in the Quran that Jesus was "taken up" because God didnt want people to kill him. No verse says that. You just made that up. All it says is that Ma kathaluhoo, wa ma salaboohoo. Thats it. So I would recommend you not to make things up. Things that are not said there.

God by default knows exactly what he was doing and that's our theology. So your opinion or your personal theology is that God didnt know what he was doing so you have to play Gods role and say things God never said. That is why you are just making things up.

See, you believe the New Testament is absolute truth right??? So can you justify it? Tell me who wrote the four gospels. Is that Gods word? Is the KJV Gods word? Or is the NIV Gods word? Is codex B Gods word? Or is the codex Sinaiticus Gods word? Was the letters of clement in alexandrines Gods word? Or was the epistle of Barnabas Gods word?

Can you clarify?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Well, these so called "unspecified" verses do not have any bearing in the theology. For example, the verse about la moosiyoona is unspecified. Its not absolutely clear for people prior to the 20th century. Only later humans discovered the validity of it. So if you wish to exploit it which is not affecting the theology of God being the one, necessary, etc, then you are just exploiting it. But one day it will come to light. And it already has come to light.

Also you made things up in your post. I mean just made up. There is no indication in the Quran that Jesus was "taken up" because God didnt want people to kill him. No verse says that. You just made that up. All it says is that Ma kathaluhoo, wa ma salaboohoo. Thats it. So I would recommend you not to make things up. Things that are not said there.

God by default knows exactly what he was doing and that's our theology. So your opinion or your personal theology is that God didnt know what he was doing so you have to play Gods role and say things God never said. That is why you are just making things up.

See, you believe the New Testament is absolute truth right??? So can you justify it? Tell me who wrote the four gospels. Is that Gods word? Is the KJV Gods word? Or is the NIV Gods word? Is codex B Gods word? Or is the codex Sinaiticus Gods word? Was the letters of clement in alexandrines Gods word? Or was the epistle of Barnabas Gods word?

Can you clarify?

First of All, the word Mutishabihaat does not just mean unspecified. We have to see, what Quran means by Mutishabihaat. Look at same verse 3:7. It says, these are verses that only God knows its Taweel. Do you know what Taweel means?
It comes from the word Awwal, meaning first or origin. Do you know why it uses the word Taweel? We can tell from other verses of Quran where this word is used.
If you look, for example in Surrah of Joseph, when He saw a dream, of 11 stars, moon and sun, then in the same Surrah it says what is the Taweel of the dream. By 11 stars, moon and sun, it means 11 Brothers, mother and father. So, taweel means, that there is an "original" interpretation. But when a verse is in symbolic form, then, to know the original and first meaning hidden in the symbols, is the Taweel. That is to bring back symbols to original meaning.
Now, in 3:7, it uses same word. It means there are verses in the Quran, which are symbols, but no one knows its original meaning except God.
Look at another example, where it says, a man saw Seven cows in his dream. What was the Taweel of it? Remember no one knew except for Joseph, a Prophet of God.


Now, you also ask, about the Author of the Bible. The Bible itself has verses claiming to be inspired by God. So, if it was not really inspired by God, Allah would not allow it to claim that, or He would have sent a Messenger immediately to say, this Book is not inspired by God. So, it is irrelevant if by history it is possible to know who were the scribes of the Book. What matters, whoever the scribes were, God in His own ways, inspired the Book, so it can be a guidance for humanity.

 

[firedragon]

First of All, the word Mutishabihaat does not just mean unspecified.

Lol. Can you tell me what Shubbiha wa Shamsi means?

It comes from the word Awwal, meaning first or origin. Do you know why it uses the word Taweel? We can tell from other verses of Quran where this word is used.

wAbsolutely a different topic. You have brought up this word Taweel. You didnt know what in the world it meant. And I told you it is from Awwal. Taweel means primary meaning. And there are some verses we dont know the primary meaning. And it also says that there will be people like you who take these verses that humans dont know the primary stuff and make up your huge hoop jumping theology based on these verses that you have no clue of.

Now, you also ask, about the Author of the Bible. The Bible itself has verses claiming to be inspired by God. So, if it was not really inspired by God, Allah would not allow it to claim that, or He would have sent a Messenger immediately to say, this Book is not inspired by God. So, it is irrelevant if by history it is possible to know who were the scribes of the Book. What matters, whoever the scribes were, God in His own ways, inspired the Book, so it can be a guidance for humanity.

Thats not an answer for any of the questions I asked.

Is the epistle of Barnabas the word of God? Are the letters of clement the word of God?

You are preaching. Not answering questions.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Lol. Can you tell me what Shubbiha wa Shamsi means?


wAbsolutely a different topic. You have brought up this word Taweel. You didnt know what in the world it meant. And I told you it is from Awwal. Taweel means primary meaning. And there are some verses we dont know the primary meaning. And it also says that there will be people like you who take these verses that humans dont know the primary stuff and make up your huge hoop jumping theology based on these verses that you have no clue of.

Taweel is exactly a related to the topic, that you brought up. Because in verse 3:7, where it says, no one knows its Taweel, this is related to only verses which are Mutishabihat.
So, then, to know what is intended, we have to see examples in Quran, where a Taweel is given, and that is how we can know examples of Mutishabihaat.

So, let me ask you this.
In Quran, it says, in the Day of Resurrection, the Sun and moom looses their light.
Is this a Mutishabihat verse or clear verse? How do we know that these are not symbols with some symbolic meaning?
Quran does not tell us, which verse is Mutishabihaat and which verse is Muhakamaat.

Thats not an answer for any of the questions I asked.

Is the epistle of Barnabas the word of God? Are the letters of clement the word of God?

You are preaching. Not answering questions.

You know what it is like you are asking?
It is like someone says, how do you know actually there was a Prophet with the name Noah or Adam? Show historical evidence that there was a person by the name Noah, or Abraham.
In return, you say, this is what Quran says, and thus we believe it.
You are asking same type of question. You are saying how do you know Bible is inspired by God when we cannot even prove according to history who wrote it. In return Christians say, this is what Bible says: all scriptures are inspired by God.
So, if this is not a good answer, then please tell me, how do you know Noah actually existed. Please prove it with historical evidence. Don't just say because Quran says so.

 

[firedragon]

In Quran, it says, in the Day of Resurrection, the Sun and moom looses their light.

Which verse? And how is that affecting the Islamic theology? Please explain.

You know what it is like you are asking?
It is like someone says, how do you know actually there was a Prophet with the name Noah or Adam? Show historical evidence that there was a person by the name Noah, or Abraham.
In return, you say, this is what Quran says, and thus we believe it.
You are asking same type of question. You are saying how do you know Bible is inspired by God when we cannot even prove according to history who wrote it. In return Christians say, this is what Bible says: all scriptures are inspired by God.
So, if this is not a good answer, then please tell me, how do you know Noah actually existed. Please prove it with historical evidence. Don't just say because Quran says so.

Irrelevant.

Is the epistle of Barnabas Gods word? Is the Shepard of Hermas Gods word? Are the letters of Clement word of God?

Thats the question.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Which verse?



And how is that affecting the Islamic theology? Please explain.

It was a part of discussion with LINK. You just brought it up again after a while. Please see my discussion with him, to see how it is related.

Irrelevant.

Why not? I explained why relevant, and you just say it is irrelevant.

Is the epistle of Barnabas Gods word? Is the Shepard of Hermas Gods word? Are the letters of Clement word of God?

Thats the question.

From whose point of view?
The Quran confirms the Scriptures that were current among Christians are valid. So, if you want to know the view of Quran, you have to see if at the time of Muhammad, epistle of Barnabas and the Shepard of Hermas were part of the Bible.
Now, do you know if at the time of Muhammad the Bible included epistle of Barnabas? If the answer is, "yes", then it means in view if Quran it was valid. If the answer is no, then most likely, it is not be considered as scriptures.
Moreover, the Bible says, the scriptures are inspired by God. It is different from saying they are words of God. But, from theological point of view they are legitimate.

 

[stanberger]

Remember, God is all-powerful. If God wanted, He could have revealed thousands more verses, and explain everything in more details in the Quran. It is not like God was incapable of explaining everything, and just had to leave some verses unspecified. Your logic is just like how you believe, God left Jews and Christians with an illegitimate Book for thousands of years, and even when Jesus came, they wanted to kill Him, so, God had to take Jesus up, so they don't kill His messenger, and thus according to your explanation God was defeated, because not only He did not leave a proper guidance, but also, He was incapable of completing His religion for the Jews and Christians and later He also had to leave some verses in Quran unspecified. Do you see how you view God?

can you give us some examples of unspecified verses in quran ?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

can you give us some examples of unspecified verses in quran ?

Verses of Day of Judgement.
How do we know they are Mutishabihat?

 

[stanberger]

Verses of Day of Judgement.
How do we know they are Mutishabihat?

thats just a matter of faith a minor matter not like trinity where even when I asked my pastor he said ' just have faith ' trinity is a major doctrine of christianity. foreign to Jesus ' greatest command is to worship our lord the one god only '

 

[rational experiences]

Science is a basic man's math applied status.

Technology conditions is country only choice.

If one countries power plant blows up the other countries hasn't. Is the same as the past. Ark radiation accumulative cloud burning effects were country owned.

Same as today seen cooking cloud mass gets burnt releases its mass as phenomena. Anywhere.

As cooling travels it's balances around earth God was given the control of the angel existence cooling ground mass life.

As no science machine controls space or the earth's heavens mass that alters by ground mass also cooling.

One country can subjectively discuss O ALL of earth yet one country never owned the ALL of earth as it was shared was the teaching of science.

Hence if a temple blew up on scientific purpose it had. Not in the country base using the same technology.

As heavens cooling never remained constant was the teaching. It was seasonal supported and seasons also don't maintain continuity.

Therefore science argued was based on countries conditions.

 

[firedragon]

From whose point of view?

Codex Sinaiticus, Alexandrinus, Vaticanus, and KJV and NIV.

Quran is not relevant to that.

Is Epistle of Barnabas Gods word? How about Shepard of Hermas, and Clement.

Go ahead and ignore the question once more and turn to the Qur'an and show what a logical fallacy is.

 

[firedragon]

Verses of Day of Judgement.
How do we know they are Mutishabihat?

Muthashabihat is your plug and play weapon you think you can use for any argument. You dont even understand it, but you use it for anything you could find.

1. The verse does not mean what you are saying
2. Answer: Muthashabihat.
3. You are making things up
4. Answer: Muthashabihat
5. Any thing you wish to turn toward the Bahai faith
6. Answer: Muthashabihat.

 

[firedragon]

Now, do you know if at the time of Muhammad the Bible included epistle of Barnabas? If the answer is, "yes", then it means in view if Quran it was valid. If the answer is no, then most likely, it is not be considered as scriptures.

The Qur'an never ever refers to the Bible. Try your best to stop making things up. How in the world could the epistle of Barnabas be referred to as part of the Bible in the Qur'an?

Also, by talking about Muhammed as the author just like a non-muslim would, you have proven that your conflicting belief that the Quran is Gods word is false.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Codex Sinaiticus, Alexandrinus, Vaticanus, and KJV and NIV.

Quran is not relevant to that.

Is Epistle of Barnabas Gods word? How about Shepard of Hermas, and Clement.

Go ahead and ignore the question once more and turn to the Qur'an and show what a logical fallacy is.

It is in Quran debate, that's why I said, in the view of Quran.

I personally consider there is some truth in them.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Muthashabihat is your plug and play weapon you think you can use for any argument. You dont even understand it, but you use it for anything you could find.

1. The verse does not mean what you are saying
2. Answer: Muthashabihat.
3. You are making things up
4. Answer: Muthashabihat
5. Any thing you wish to turn toward the Bahai faith
6. Answer: Muthashabihat.

Lol.

 

[firedragon]

It is in Quran debate, that's why I said, in the view of Quran.

I personally consider there is some truth in them.

Thats not relevant to the question I asked.

If you believe the Bible is the word of God, or inspired, or what ever it is, you should have decent answers. Earliest bibles like sinaiticus is different to the latest bibles. Which means one of them or some of them got it wrong. So as a Bahai who tries to reconcile between the bible and your own theology, you should have some decent answers.

At least have the humility to say "I dont know".

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Which verse? And how is that affecting the Islamic theology? Please explain.

I will explain why I believe it is important, but it would be long. Do you know how and why and when the Muslims started to think the Bible is corrupted or is not really the Revelations to Moses and Jesus?

It was when the Muslims were unable to find Muhammad in Torah and Gospel. Then they said, it must be because these books are not the true and original books revealed. For that, they referred to verses of Quran that says the people of the Book have changed their books.

But, in our view the reason most Muslims do not see Muhammad in the Bible, is not because Muhammad is not in the Bible, but it is because, the verses in Bible that predicted Muhammad are in the form of Mutishabihaat. You see, it is not like, Allah only spoke in Mutishabihat in the Quran. He did that in Revelations before the Quran too.
Why does Allah speak in Mutishabihaat?
It is because there are certain things that it would be too soon for people to be told explicitly. Even as Jesus said, "I still have many things to say, but you cannot bare it now"


These Mutishabihaat are mainly prophecies about future Messenger. Allah did not want to say explicitly of next Messenger, so, that He sends Him suddenly. In this way, He tests the belief of people.
Consider if God had said explicitly of Jesus in the Torah. Such as His name, and that He will be a Messenger with a new Revelation, and when He will be born, and when He comes. Then the Jews would not have rejected Jesus. Because they could have easily recognized Jesus as described in Torah.

Consider that the Holy Books teach lessons from the past and then God tests humanity from what He taught in the Book. Even as Quran says, God gives Book to humanity so He can tests them!

For example, in the Quran, God speaks of how everytime a Messenger was sent, people rejected Him, disbelieved in Him, and even plotted darkly against the Messengers.
Likewise, in Gospel and Torah, we see same lessons.

You see, the stories that are mentioned about previous Prophets, are not just nice and amusing stories. There is a purpose of narrating the old stories. It's wisdom is to teach a lesson of what people did wrong in old times, so, later people hopefully learn from their mistakes. Even as it is said at the End of Surran of Joseph!

Once these lessons are given, then Allah tests the Ummah, or the community of believers according to the lessons in their Holy Bool. But if Allah had said explicitly that, there will be a Messenger whose name is Muhammad, and He comes in Arabia in the year 620s AD, with a new Book called the Quran, then how was a test? It is like giving the answer to a test before the test! But, the test is to test their belief. So, then Allah sends a Messenger suddenly. For that reason He spoke in Mutishabihaat about future Messenger, because according to His Wisdom, He did not want to make it explicit.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Thats not relevant to the question I asked.

If you believe the Bible is the word of God, or inspired, or what ever it is, you should have decent answers. Earliest bibles like sinaiticus is different to the latest bibles. Which means one of them or some of them got it wrong. So as a Bahai who tries to reconcile between the bible and your own theology, you should have some decent answers.

At least have the humility to say "I dont know".

You have said:
"Earliest bibles like sinaiticus is different to the latest bibles."

There could be minor differences, but nothing major that actually have an affect of beliefs.
Are you saying that in early Bible, Jesus was not crucified and in later copies, Jesus is said He was crucified?
Are you saying in old Bible it did not say Jesus is the Son of God, but in later version this is added?
When you say they are different, the question is "how much changed"? 1 percent? 10 percent? 50 percent? Did the change include any fundamental Christians belief?