• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Does Quran disagree with a portion of the Bible?

firedragon

Veteran Member
Are you saying we are being deceived because we speak English?

No.

But if you dont do a bit of research prior to making such big claims, you could make very simple errors. You can cut and paste all you want Tony, but you can never change the Quranic text because its written already. It does not say Moses was given the Torah, and you cant change it. What you can change is, learn something.
 

stanberger

Active Member
You have said:
"Earliest bibles like sinaiticus is different to the latest bibles."

There could be minor differences, but nothing major that actually have an affect of beliefs.
Are you saying that in early Bible, Jesus was not crucified and in later copies, Jesus is said He was crucified?
Are you saying in old Bible it did not say Jesus is the Son of God, but in later version this is added?
When you say they are different, the question is "how much changed"? 1 percent? 10 percent? 50 percent? Did the change include any fundamental Christians belief?
not minor. bart erman and other biblical scholars found major holes in bible/christianity. 1 earliest manuscripts of mark ends at empty tomb. resurrection added later. 2 none of the gospels were even written by the 4 said apostles. 3 John 3 16 a much later addition I had no choice but to leave church for islam 2002
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No.

But if you dont do a bit of research prior to making such big claims, you could make very simple errors. You can cut and paste all you want Tony, but you can never change the Quranic text because its written already. It does not say Moses was given the Torah, and you cant change it. What you can change is, learn something.

Excuse me for not being a great Islamic Scholar, so it boils down to this for the English speaking population. We rely upon professional translations, done with honesty of intent to impart an accurate rendition of the Message given.

There are 3 words used in the quotes provided of the Quran verses.

Scripture
Book & Book (ie Torah) and
Torah

I did not change the word, I have read what the translators have given us.

All the above words to an English speaking population indicate the same fact, that Moses was given teachings that were preserved in words that were accessible to others.

So are all the translations available incorrect?

Regards Tony
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
There are 3 words used in the quotes provided of the Quran verses.

Scripture
Book & Book (ie Torah) and
Torah

I did not change the word, I have read what the translators have given us.

All the above words to an English speaking population indicate the same fact, that Moses was given teachings that were preserved into words that were accessible to others.

If you were mislead by some peoples translations, I cant apologise for that. So its your position to understand that you were mislead, and that no one has told you this prior to this, and question your apologetics.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
It does not say Moses was given the Torah, and you cant change it.


"It was We who revealed the Torah (to Moses); therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the Prophet who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah’s will, by the Rabbis and the Doctors of Law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah’s Book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear Me, and sell not My Signs for a miserable price. (Quran, 5:44)


Obviously the Torah was given to Moses, because the verse says, by its standards the Jews were judged. And we know Jews were people who Moses was sent to.

I am so surprised you are saying Torah was not given to Moses. At the end of the verse it says Allah’s Book. It means, the verse is calling Torah, a Book of Allah. It is irrelevant if it was written later after Moses. It was first revealed to Moses. But then later was actually written. As Quran says, Allah had appointed many Prophets for Jews, who came after Moses to aid Him.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If you were mislead by some peoples translations, I cant apologise for that. So its your position to understand that you were mislead, and that no one has told you this prior to this, and question your apologetics.

Your twists of anothers position are not clever, nor do they give Islam in a light of honest intent.

Regards Tony
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
not minor. bart erman and other biblical scholars found major holes in bible/christianity. 1 earliest manuscripts of mark ends at empty tomb. resurrection added later. 2 none of the gospels were even written by the 4 said apostles. 3 John 3 16 a much later addition I had no choice but to leave church for islam 2002
Different authors of Gospels had written scriptures according to the visions they received from God. You know how vision works?
Suppose two people are in the same place. God gives a vision to one of them, so, he sees the vision of an angel. The other person who is just in the same place, does not see any angel. Because God only gave the vision to one of them.
So, is with Authors of the Bible. God gave them visions to write the Gospels, but He could have given them different visions, so for example one of them sees the tomb is empty, and the other one does not see that. These are visions and have symbolic meaning. They are not literal.
As people always read Holy Books literally, they think these Holy Books are literal history. They are not literal history. They were inspired by God in dreams and by visions.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Your twists of anothers position are not clever, nor do they give Islam in a light of honest intent.

Regards Tony

You can do your ad hominem and insults, will not change facts. The Quran does not say the Torah was given to Moses. YOur cut and pastes dont count because in the language of the Quran it does not say what you want to say.

At least you know it now. YOur insults will not change anything. Ciao.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
"It was We who revealed the Torah (to Moses); therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the Prophet who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah’s will, by the Rabbis and the Doctors of Law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah’s Book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear Me, and sell not My Signs for a miserable price. (Quran, 5:44)


Obviously the Torah was given to Moses, because the verse says, by its standards the Jews were judged. And we know Jews were people who Moses was sent to.

I am so surprised you are saying Torah was not given to Moses. At the end of the verse it says Allah’s Book. It means, the verse is calling Torah, a Book of Allah. It is irrelevant if it was written later after Moses. It was first revealed to Moses. But then later was actually written. As Quran says, Allah had appointed many Prophets for Jews, who came after Moses to aid Him.

I didnt say "Torah was not given to Moses". Thats a strawman.

Let me say it again. Nowhere in the Quran does it say the Torah was given to Moses. As always you could cut and paste all you want.

Also, the Quran speaks of revelation given to many. Abraham, Ishmael, Jacob, the patriarchs, Moses, Jesus, by name are mentioned. So just because the word "Jews" is there, does not mean "Moses was given the Torah". You can interpolate it because its someones tradition to believe it but none of that means "Its in the Quran".

Mate. The Quran says directly "Suhufi Ibrahima wa moosa" which means both Abraham and Moses were given "The Scrolls". Why do yo ignore part of the Quran? ;) So which revelation was given to both Abraham and Moses according to the Qur'an?
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
I didnt say "Torah was not given to Moses". Thats a strawman.

Let me say it again. Nowhere in the Quran does it say the Torah was given to Moses. As always you could cut and paste all you want.
Right. So you agree that Torah was given to Moses, but you are saying there is no sentence in the Quran that is like "Torah was given to Moses".
So, why do you think God did not say "We gave Torah to Moses"?
In my opinion it is because everyone knew that the Holy Book revealed through Moses was called Torah. This is well known through Jewish Traditions. Why should the Quran say something that is already known by everyone and is obvious?
Quran says, God spoke directly to Moses. When we read the Torah, we see, in it, God is speaking directly with Moses. So, this means, the Quran is talking about the same Torah available among Jews.

Ex 33:11 "And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend."


"Of some messengers We have already told thee the story; of others We have not;- and to Moses Allah spoke direct;" Quran 4:164




Also, the Quran speaks of revelation given to many. Abraham, Ishmael, Jacob, the patriarchs, Moses, Jesus, by name are mentioned. So just because the word "Jews" is there, does not mean "Moses was given the Torah". You can interpolate it because its someones tradition to believe it but none of that means "Its in the Quran".

Mate. The Quran says directly "Suhufi Ibrahima wa moosa" which means both Abraham and Moses were given "The Scrolls". Why do yo ignore part of the Quran? ;) So which revelation was given to both Abraham and Moses according to the Qur'an?

To my understanding, Suhuf is not a name of a Book or Revelation. It just means Scriptures. Well literally means pages or letters.
Also, some Messengers wrote Letters, similar to Epistles. They can also be called Suhuf.

If I remember correctly, Forghan is another name for Quran, but in the Quran, it is said some other Prophets were given Forghan.
 
Last edited:

firedragon

Veteran Member
Right. So you agree that Torah was given to Moses

Nope.

In my opinion it is because everyone knew that the Holy Book revealed through Moses was called Torah.

I asked you what did God say in the Quran if you believe Quran is Gods word, Suhufi Ibrahima wa moosa. Both were given the same revelation. So what is that? How about others like Jacob and the patriarchs?

To my understanding, Suhuf is not a name of a Book or Revelation. It just means Scriptures.

Well. The same is told about Moses, Jacob, etc. Scripture.

Also, some Messengers wrote Letters, similar to Epistles.

Where in the Quran does it say they wrote anything? Dont add things that are not there.

If I remember correctly, Forghan is another name for Quran, but in the Quran, it is said some other Prophets were given Forghan.

Its Furqan, not Forghan. There is no o sound in arabic and your Forghan out of the charts. Also, Furqan is not a name given to the Quran. It is an attribute. Criterion was given to Moses and Aaron as well. Please study the Quran through the Quran.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I don't understand what point you are making here..

What is a scroll?
Isn't it something written down? :)

Scroll is an English word. :) In English, even a "book" is written down. That is why the English readers always insist that all references of Kithab and Suhuf and even Anzala are all written down. But that is not the understanding of the Quranic language. Yet of course, there are a lot of prototypes and few are willing to think beyond their prototypes.

Anyway, if you really really believe a Abraham wrote down revelation, was the same thing given to Moses as well? Suhufi Ibrahima wa moosa. So did both of them "write down" the same scroll?

Please inform.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
You tell me. :)

Personally, I don't see the problem. Ancient texts are unreliable.
We have the Qur'an. Alhamdulillah.

Of course. Thats the whole point of the Qur'an itself. But see, nowhere in the Quran does it say "previous texts are unreliable". What it says is that people wrote by their own hands and attributed it to Allah.

Thus, telling me we have the Quran is only affirming the Quranic position. Al Hamdulillah.

But if you really believe that is the case, you have to really stand by the Quran. It speaks of revelation to Abraham and Musa. It speaks of revelation to Jacob and the Patriarchs. It speaks of the Furqan given to Moses and Aaron. Yet it speaks of the Quran which is the muhaymeenun.

See it through.

Peace.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Of course. Thats the whole point of the Qur'an itself. But see, nowhere in the Quran does it say "previous texts are unreliable". What it says is that people wrote by their own hands and attributed it to Allah.

Thus, telling me we have the Quran is only affirming the Quranic position. Al Hamdulillah.

But if you really believe that is the case, you have to really stand by the Quran. It speaks of revelation to Abraham and Musa. It speaks of revelation to Jacob and the Patriarchs. It speaks of the Furqan given to Moses and Aaron. Yet it speaks of the Quran which is the muhaymeenun.

See it through.

Peace.
There is no verse in the Quran saying The Torah and Gospel current among people were written by people and attributed to Allah. See, you are making something is not in the Quran.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Nope.



I asked you what did God say in the Quran if you believe Quran is Gods word, Suhufi Ibrahima wa moosa. Both were given the same revelation. So what is that? How about others like Jacob and the patriarchs?



Well. The same is told about Moses, Jacob, etc. Scripture.



Where in the Quran does it say they wrote anything? Dont add things that are not there.
Suhuf, is not a Name or Revelation or Book. Suhuf means just Letters or scrolls. It means the scrolls they wrote were revelations of God. Let me say it in another way. Prophet Muhammad also sent some letters to Persian Kings to invite them to Islam. This would be an example of a Tablet, or Sahifeh (Suhuf is a plural of Sahifeh). It means, it is not like the Messengers wrote or say anything from themselves. They only say thing according to the Will of God.


Its Furqan, not Forghan. There is no o sound in arabic and your Forghan out of the charts. Also, Furqan is not a name given to the Quran. It is an attribute. Criterion was given to Moses and Aaron as well. Please study the Quran through the Quran.
Exactly. Forghan or Forqan, you know what we are talking about. There are many dialogs in Arabic. Each Arabic country speaks a different accent and a different type of Arabic. let's not get to that.
Forqan, just as Suhuf, is not really a specific name of a Revelation. It is supposed to be translated as Criterion. Meaning, that People are judged by this standard. So, if you call all Books that ever was revealed to a Prophet Criterion, you would be correct. Likewise, any scrolls or letters that ever was written by any Prophet, can be named Sahifeh. In Shia, for example they have Sahifa-yi Sajjadiyyeh. It is irrelevant if you believe in Shia Imams or not. Just as it is irrelevant if someone believes in Muhammad. These are just terms used in Islam, and we can understand them in the context of History.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
There is no verse in the Quran saying The Torah and Gospel current among people were written by people and attributed to Allah. See, you are making something is not in the Quran.

See. Making strawman aunty sally's makes your character and apologetics truly pathetic.

I never sais "Torah and Gospel CURRENT among people yada yada yada were written by people and attributed to Allah".

Try your best not to make up lies about people to preach your theology. Try to really study the Qur'an instead. You will never lose by having integrity.

Suhuf, is not a Name or Revelation or Book. Suhuf means just Letters or scrolls. It means the scrolls they wrote were revelations of God. Let me say it in another way. Prophet Muhammad also sent some letters to Persian Kings to invite them to Islam. This would be an example of a Tablet, or Sahifeh (Suhuf is a plural of Sahifeh). It means, it is not like the Messengers wrote or say anything from themselves. They only say thing according to the Will of God.

Lol. You say Sahifeh?? Tell me. What is the letter in arabic that has an "E" sound? Since you are a scholar in the language, it must be easy to do this no??

Also, please explain what is the Suhufi Ibrahima wa moosa. Both.

Of course you won't answer this because I have said this many, many times in this same thread.

So explain both questions. Which you will of course never do.

Exactly. Forghan or Forqan, you know what we are talking about.

No no. There is thing in arabic called "Forghan". Where ever you got it from, being such an expert in arabic, you should have known that in the beginning. So rather than pretending, just be truthful.

Forqan, just as Suhuf, is not really a specific name of a Revelation.

Excellent. Then dont make statements you dont understand. Furqan (Not forghan or forqan) means criterion. I have taught you that when you claimed falsely that it was the Quran alone. So now that you learned that, do some real research.

Tell me. What is the Furqan that was given to Moses and Aaron?

Cheers.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
See. Making strawman aunty sally's makes your character and apologetics truly pathetic.

I never sais "Torah and Gospel CURRENT among people yada yada yada were written by people and attributed to Allah".


.
Then you agree that the Quran does not say that the Torah and Gospel current among people are written by people and falsely attributed to Allah?

Good, so, finally you agree that is just opinion of many Muslims, and not what the Quran says.

.
Also, please explain what is the Suhufi Ibrahima wa moosa. Both.

Of course you won't answer this because I have said this many, many times in this same thread.

So explain both questions. Which you will of course never do.

.
I did explain. You conveniently ignored what I wrote about this in my previous post.


.
.
Tell me. What is the Furqan that was given to Moses and Aaron?

.
The Criterion given to Moses and Aaron, was the Torah. The Criterion given to Muhammad was the Quran. The Criterion given to Jesus was Injil.

See, the Torah is specific to Moses. Just Quran is specific to Muhammad. But when it is said Criterion or furghan, it is not specific to any Prophet. Likewise the term Sahifih (or Sahifeh) is not specific name for any of the Prophets Revelation. It is any letter or Tablet that was authored by Prophets of God.
 
Top