Altfish
Veteran Member
I think you are now trolling but hey ho, Maybe he lived in the Mojave Dessert with Zappa and BeefheartHow do you know where he lived?
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I think you are now trolling but hey ho, Maybe he lived in the Mojave Dessert with Zappa and BeefheartHow do you know where he lived?
I think you are now trolling but hey ho, Maybe he lived in the Mojave Dessert with Zappa and Beefheart
A recent statement triggered a new topic. One gentleman said that "all scripture is his word" referring to Jesus, obviously meaning the whole Bible is the words of Jesus...
Great question. More than a few people have wondered about that particular epistle. As I consider it, it's not much to worry about -- God doesn't try to prevent all humans from making mistakes, but instead made sure the crucial things we would need to know were communicated. If a person won't believe what is in the Gospel accounts, the 4 gospels, then it won't matter at all what is in any epistle then.... (And, if a person will believe in Jesus's words in the 4 gospels, then the epistles will be correctly gauged in so many ways.)A recent statement triggered a new topic. One gentleman said that "all scripture is his word" referring to Jesus, obviously meaning the whole Bible is the words of Jesus.
Now lets say a book like the first epistle of Timothy. It was written by an author who called himself Paul but he actually was not. Was this also the word of Jesus?
Now lets say a book like the first epistle of Timothy. It was written by an author who called himself Paul but he actually was not. Was this also the word of Jesus?
I don't know about you, but if I could find a giant marshmallow covered chocolate cream snowball, I'd make a snowball mine and live off of it. Vitamin M (marshmallow).These "dessert" dwellers.... were they living in pies, cupcakes, cookies, ice cream sundaes or what?
Sounds like whichever it was, it was probably better than living in a desert, although a lot more fattening.
You asked if the bible was written by Jesus or God.
I think it would be more correct to say, it is written in guidance of God and Jesus. But, Bible itself says for example:
Since many have undertaken to set in order a narrative concerning those matters which have been fulfilled among us, even as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us, it seemed good to me also, having traced the course of all things accurately from the first, to write to you in order, most excellent Theophilus; that you might know the certainty concerning the things in which you were instructed.
Luke 1:1-4
So, clearly that was written by a man. And because it tells “many have undertaken”, there has been many people who have wrote down things the heard or witnessed.
Now lets say a book like the first epistle of Timothy. It was written by an author who called himself Paul but he actually was not. Was this also the word of Jesus?
At the time the epistle was included in the canon it was considered inspired. Because later biblical historians have questioned the authorship, whether Paul or another community leader following Paul, actually wrote, what was written was the belief and practice of the church which preceded it.
I am intrigued. Which scholar thought that it was a community leader following Paul?
Many, here is but a few;
- Ehrman, Bart. The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings. Oxford University Press. 2003. p. 393 ISBN 0-19-515462-2
"when we come to the Pastoral epistles, there is greater scholarly unanimity. These three letters are widely regarded by scholars as non-Pauline."- ^ Collins, Raymond F. 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus: A Commentary. Westminster John Knox Press. 2004. p. 4 ISBN 0-664-22247-1
"By the end of the twentieth century New Testament scholarship was virtually unanimous in affirming that the Pastoral Epistles were written some time after Paul's death. ... As always some scholars dissent from the consensus view."- ^ David E. Aune, ed., The Blackwell Companion to the New Testament (Malden, MA: Wiley-Blackwell, 2010), 9: "While seven of the letters attributed to Paul are almost universally accepted as authentic (Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, 1 Thessalonians, Philemon), four are just as widely judged to be pseudepigraphal, i.e., written by unknown authors under Paul's name: Ephesians and the Pastorals (1 and 2 Timothy and Titus)."
- ^ Stephen L. Harris, The New Testament: A Student's Introduction, 4th ed. (Boston: McGraw-Hill, 2002), 366: "In the opinion of most scholars, the case against Paul's connection with the pastorals is overwhelming. Besides the fact that they do not appear in early lists of Paul's canonical works, the pastorals seem to reflect conditions that prevailed long after Paul's day, perhaps as late as the first half of the second century C.E. Lacking Paul's characteristic ideas about faith and the Spirit, they are also un-Pauline in their flat style and different vocabulary (containing 306 words not found in Paul's unquestioned letters). Furthermore, the pastorals assume a church organization far more developed than that current in the apostle's time."
firedragon said in the O.P. One gentleman said that "all scripture is his word" referring to Jesus, obviously meaning the whole Bible is the words of Jesus.
Now lets say a book like the first epistle of Timothy. It was written by an author who called himself Paul but he actually was not. Was this also the word of Jesus?
Hi @firedragon
I don’t know what the gentleman meant when he claimed “the whole bible is the words of Jesus”. This claim makes no sense to me.
INSPIRATION IS NOT THE SAME AS DICTATION
If Tertius wrote the letter to the romans, then Romans represents are the words of Tertius. Tertius may have written them under the influence of inspiration, but still, they are Tertius' words.
Similarly, If Matthew wrote Matthew, then the book of Matthew represents the words of Matthew. Matthew may have been inspired, but still, they are, in a literal sense, Matthews words rather than Jesus’ words.
I can understand if the gentleman was trying to make the point that Tertius and Matthew and the others were teaching what they knew about history and what they saw and their understanding of the gospel. I don't understand the statement that the statements or writings of others are "the words of Jesus".
At any rate firedragon, good luck in coming up with your own models as the what is going on with these writings and I hope your own spiritual journey is wonderful.
Clear
δρσενεω
As a Jew, the New Testament is no more the Word of God than the Quran or the Vedas. For you Christians, imagine how the Latter Day Saints accept your Bible, but add to it the Book of Mormon, and claim that the sum total is the word of God. That is how Jews feel about the Christian Bible.A recent statement triggered a new topic. One gentleman said that "all scripture is his word" referring to Jesus, obviously meaning the whole Bible is the words of Jesus.
Now lets say a book like the first epistle of Timothy. It was written by an author who called himself Paul but he actually was not. Was this also the word of Jesus?
A recent statement triggered a new topic. One gentleman said that "all scripture is his word" referring to Jesus, obviously meaning the whole Bible is the words of Jesus.
Now lets say a book like the first epistle of Timothy. It was written by an author who called himself Paul but he actually was not. Was this also the word of Jesus?
If you mean is Paul a dessert dweller, yes?
But it is now doubted that Paul wrote the these documents and instead they were written a couple of centuries later.