Is all scripture (Presumably of the Bible) the word of God or Jesus?

[Fallen Prophet]

A recent statement triggered a new topic. One gentleman said that "all scripture is his word" referring to Jesus, obviously meaning the whole Bible is the words of Jesus.

Now lets say a book like the first epistle of Timothy. It was written by an author who called himself Paul but he actually was not. Was this also the word of Jesus?

Technically anyone who speaks or writes with authority and by the power of the Holy Ghost is speaking and writing the Word of God - or Jesus.

 

[Subduction Zone]

How do you know it wasn't Paul? Just because some so called experts claim that?

Just because experts can support their claims with evidence instead of "Cause the Bible tells me so:.

 

[pearl]

So since you said "Scholars say this" I think its only decent to give this scholar said that. If you made an assumption, just say you made an assumption and that's it. Maybe some scholars thought that "it was a community leader following Paul" but then that would directly against the actual reasons for all those scholars you mentioned like Ehrman, Metzger, Brown, FF Bruce, etc etc to believe the authorship of the pastoral letters is not of Paul.

There is a big difference between being of Paul and by Paul.

First, I did not place the statement 'community leader' in quotations.
Second, you seem to be looking for definitive conclusions from scholars which is not possible.
The best of the best may offer no more than their scholarly hypotheses, one which they consider to be the most probable. And that's all we will ever have because making history present is not possible.
Following are concerned with the Pastorals.

1 All three Pastorals are genuinely by Paul, written in the order Titus, I-II Tim during a "second career" ca. 65-67, culminating in second Roman imprisonment.
2 If Tim is genuinely by Paul, written ca. 64 or shortly afterwards at the end of his one, prolonged Roman imprisonment that led to his death. Titus and II Tim are pseudonymous, written later, most likely toward the end of the 1st century, partly in imitation of II Tim. A "second career" was created.
3 All three Pastorals are pseudonymous, but II Tim was written not long after Paul's death as a farewell testament by someone who knew Paul's last days, so that the biographical details therein would be largely historical, even if dramatized with some license. Titus and I Tim were written pseudonymously later, most likely toward the end of the 1st century, partly in imitation of II Tim. A "second career" was created.
4 All three Pastorals are pseudonymous, written in the order Titus, I-II Tim most likely toward the end of 1st century. A "second career" was shaped (probably fictionally) with a second Roman imprisonment, so that he might speak final words about issues now troubling areas once evangelized by the apostle.

Getting back to my 'community leader' statement; 'the majority would support some continuity with 'Paul's own ministry and thought', to me that's a leader in the later Pauline community.

"About 80 to 90 percent of modern scholars would agree that the Pastorals were written after Paul's lifetime, and of those the majority would accept the period between 80 and 100 as the most plausible context for their composition."

excerpts Pastoral Letters 'Introduction New Testament'

 

[Kenny]

Calls for another thread. What say you KenS?

It would be interesting.

 

[firedragon]

No, the scriptures are the writings of Holy men, some more Holy than others. They have also been edited, redacted and translated.

"The Scriptures always have, and always will, reflect the intellectual, moral, and spiritual status of those who create them." UB

So who do you think is the "Holy Man" that wrote the pastoral letters and Hebrews etc? Just saying "holy men" is a mere belief statement. Prove it with evidence. Yes?

 

[firedragon]

First, I did not place the statement 'community leader' in quotations.

Thats what you said.

But if you are retracting it, say it plainly. No worries.

 

[Colt]

So who do you think is the "Holy Man" that wrote the pastoral letters and Hebrews etc? Just saying "holy men" is a mere belief statement. Prove it with evidence. Yes?

Paul wrote most of the Letters. That's the general consensus among scholars.

 

[firedragon]

Paul wrote most of the Letters. That's the general consensus among scholars.

Yeah. But the general consensus among scholars is that Paul did not write 1st Timothy.

 

[pearl]

But if you are retracting it, say it plainly. No worries.

Not retracting anything, you put the statement in quotes not I since I was not quoting anyone.
Would you not consider the leaders of the post apostolic church communities a community leader?

 

[firedragon]

Getting back to my 'community leader' statement; 'the majority would support some continuity with 'Paul's own ministry and thought', to me that's a leader in the later Pauline community.

I have asked you so many times which scholar you are referring to. Even if its a fringe scholar, if the arguments are sound, its valid. But has to be stated and assessed.

 

[firedragon]

Not retracting anything, you put the statement in quotes not I since I was not quoting anyone.
Would you not consider the leaders of the post apostolic church communities a community leader?

So are you claiming that a "post apostolic church community member" wrote the pastoral letters? You claim that a church father wrote 1st Timothy and pretended it was Paul himself?

 

[pearl]

excerpts Pastoral Letters 'Introduction New Testament'

I have asked you so many times which scholar you are referring to. Even if its a fringe scholar, if the arguments are sound, its valid. But has to be stated and assessed.

I gave you the name of my source '
An Introduction to the New Testament (The Anchor Yale Bible Reference Library)
Raymond Brown, the bibliographical references are far to extensive to list.

 

[firedragon]

I gave you the name of my source '
An Introduction to the New Testament (The Anchor Yale Bible Reference Library)
Raymond Brown, the bibliographical references are far to extensive to list.

Raymond brown says that it was a church father who wrote the pastoral letters? Really? In that case, you have not read Raymond brown.

 

[pearl]

Raymond brown says that it was a church father who wrote the pastoral letters? Really? In that case, you have not read Raymond brown.

I'm beginning to think you suffer from a lack of comprehending what you read. If you're questioning what I quoted from R Brown in 'Intro to the NH', pick a page, otherwise I'm done with your pretense.

 

[firedragon]

I'm beginning to think you suffer from a lack of comprehending what you read. If you're questioning what I quoted from R Brown in 'Intro to the NH', pick a page, otherwise I'm done with your pretense.

Yeah. Generally people think others are just like them.

1st Timothy was written by a person who claimed to be Paul. So he was pretending. Also, theological points and even when it comes to Pauls general egalitarian type of views are in contrast with 1st Timothy. Thus, it is not probable that it was a follower of Paul or one of his disciples, inheritors who wrote it. That was your initial claim, and so far all you have done is an ad hominem.

Pick a page for what Pcarl? You Brough him up, so please do say what you wish to say and you should be the one who quotes the scholar or as you say "Pick a Page". Not me. Thats a burden of proof fallacy.

Have a great day.

 

[pearl]

In that case, you have not read Raymond brown.

Pick a page for what Pcarl?