Is all scripture (Presumably of the Bible) the word of God or Jesus?

[Altfish]

It speaks in Isaiah, Ezekiel about the return of the Jews to Israel a 'second time'
(first being Babylon) and Jesus hinted at that too. Perhaps these books were
written in the 20th Century?

When did the Jews leave Israel?

 

[PruePhillip]

When did the Jews leave Israel?

In captivity to Babylon, and exile to Rome.

 

[Altfish]

In captivity to Babylon, and exile to Rome.

No Jews in Israel?

 

[PruePhillip]

No Jews in Israel?

That's not the point - there can be one Jew in Israel and seven million in exile,
that doesn't mean there's an exile.
Technically speaking, there were Jews remaining in Israel after both exiles,
but particularly during the Roman exile after Bar Kochbar, there weren't a lot.

 

[Altfish]

That's not the point - there can be one Jew in Israel and seven million in exile,
that doesn't mean there's an exile.
Technically speaking, there were Jews remaining in Israel after both exiles,
but particularly during the Roman exile after Bar Kochbar, there weren't a lot.

But didn't Babylon include northern Israel?
I realise that Jerusalem was ruined but much of Israel was untouched and safe

 

[PruePhillip]

But didn't Babylon include northern Israel?
I realise that Jerusalem was ruined but much of Israel was untouched and safe

I think some of the poor were left behind, and many other ethnic groups
moved in to occupy the land. It was still an exile, it was still a captivity.

 

[Altfish]

I think some of the poor were left behind, and many other ethnic groups
moved in to occupy the land. It was still an exile, it was still a captivity.

These things happen, the UK was raided by the Saxons, US raided by Europeans, etc.

 

[PruePhillip]

These things happen, the UK was raided by the Saxons, US raided by Europeans, etc.

You are seeking to find similarities in the experience of the Jew with other
nations or ethnic groups, as if to deny the differences.

 

[pearl]

I am intrigued. Which scholar thought that it was a community leader following Paul?

I suggest a quick search; who wrote the pastorals.

 

[pearl]

I think some of the poor were left behind, and many other ethnic groups
moved in to occupy the land. It was still an exile, it was still a captivity.

That is my understanding, the wealthy and the learned were taken into exile, leaving behind
the poor and uneducated peasants, and the Samaritans were the result of intermarriage.

 

[firedragon]

I suggest a quick search; who wrote the pastorals.

Did. But I can't find any scholar who says "it was a community leader following Paul" like you said.

So since you said "Scholars say this" I think its only decent to give this scholar said that. If you made an assumption, just say you made an assumption and that's it. Maybe some scholars thought that "it was a community leader following Paul" but then that would directly against the actual reasons for all those scholars you mentioned like Ehrman, Metzger, Brown, FF Bruce, etc etc to believe the authorship of the pastoral letters is not of Paul.

So what you said is in direct contradiction with the actual analysis done by these scholars. Thats why I asked "who said that".

1 Timothy was contradicting Paul. There are soo many literary differences from Pauls writings to the author of 1st Timothy. Thus, for you to claim that "Scholars said" that it was written by a "Community leader following Paul" is in my opinion breaking the premises of these scholars, but you said "Scholars said it".

So which scholar said "it was a community leader following Paul"?

 

[Muffled]

A recent statement triggered a new topic. One gentleman said that "all scripture is his word" referring to Jesus, obviously meaning the whole Bible is the words of Jesus.

Now lets say a book like the first epistle of Timothy. It was written by an author who called himself Paul but he actually was not. Was this also the word of Jesus?

I believe the words that Jesus spoke are His words and the words that Yahweh spoke are His words. All the rest is inspired word.

 

[Muffled]

No, written by dessert dwelling men

I believe I can assure you I am not eating my cherry pie while I write this.

 

[firedragon]

I believe the words that Jesus spoke are His words and the words that Yahweh spoke are His words. All the rest is inspired word.

Now lets say a book like the first epistle of Timothy. It was written by an author who called himself Paul but he actually was not. Was this also the word of Jesus?

Are you saying that some anonymous book written by someone who said he was Paul but was actually someone else, another anonymous author, is the word of Jesus or God?

 

[74x12]

A recent statement triggered a new topic. One gentleman said that "all scripture is his word" referring to Jesus, obviously meaning the whole Bible is the words of Jesus.

Now lets say a book like the first epistle of Timothy. It was written by an author who called himself Paul but he actually was not. Was this also the word of Jesus?

How do you know it wasn't Paul? Just because some so called experts claim that?

 

[firedragon]

How do you know it wasn't Paul? Just because some so called experts claim that?

1. Marcion of Sinope was an ardent believer of Pauline letters and he was the only one to have a New Testament canon early. This guy did not have Timothy in his canon included in the Pauline letters.
2. The letter starts with "Paul, an apostle of Christ" or "Paulos apostalos christou" which is not Pauls manner of writing.
3. Then there are other phrases attributed to Paul like the herald, with a clean conscience, and many others which are not the writing style of Paul.
4. Some scholars have counted numbers and stats like about 30 or more percentile of the words in the letter does not correspond with any of the other letters of Paul.
5. Women can be simply saved by just giving birth. These kind of theological differences to Pauls writings also do occur.

 

[Kenny]

1. Marcion of Sinope was an ardent believer of Pauline letters and he was the only one to have a New Testament canon early. This guy did not have Timothy in his canon included in the Pauline letters.

I don't know how that establishes anything. Did he say Paul didn't write the letters?

2. The letter starts with "Paul, an apostle of Christ" or "Paulos apostalos christou" which is not Pauls manner of writing.

I disagree:

Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,
1 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, called by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus
2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
Col 1: 1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God
1 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,
Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ,

He had MANY ways to begin his letters.

3. Then there are other phrases attributed to Paul like the herald, with a clean conscience, and many others which are not the writing style of Paul.

Says who? Why do others disagree?

4. Some scholars have counted numbers and stats like about 30 or more percentile of the words in the letter does not correspond with any of the other letters of Paul.

That is a personal opinion. The letter had a different purpose therefore different words. 70% WERE corresponding with the other letters.

I am sure that if you wrote a letter to the President to the United States and another to your mother, 30% of your words, if not more, would be different.

5. Women can be simply saved by just giving birth. These kind of theological differences to Pauls writings also do occur.

that is a problem of interpretation which Jews would understand better. Your literal interpretation is wrong.

 

[firedragon]

I don't know how that establishes anything. Did he say Paul didn't write the letters?



I disagree:

Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,
1 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, called by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus
2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
Col 1: 1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God
1 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,
Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ,

He had MANY ways to begin his letters.



Says who? Why do others disagree?



That is a personal opinion. The letter had a different purpose therefore different words. 70% WERE corresponding with the other letters.

I am sure that if you wrote a letter to the President to the United States and another to your mother, 30% of your words, if not more, would be different.



that is a problem of interpretation which Jews would understand better. Your literal interpretation is wrong.

Calls for another thread. What say you KenS?

 

[Colt]

A recent statement triggered a new topic. One gentleman said that "all scripture is his word" referring to Jesus, obviously meaning the whole Bible is the words of Jesus.

Now lets say a book like the first epistle of Timothy. It was written by an author who called himself Paul but he actually was not. Was this also the word of Jesus?

No, the scriptures are the writings of Holy men, some more Holy than others. They have also been edited, redacted and translated.

"The Scriptures always have, and always will, reflect the intellectual, moral, and spiritual status of those who create them." UB

 

[Subduction Zone]

I suggest a quick search; who wrote the pastorals.

Beethoven

I know, I know. The real answer appears to be unknown and almost certainly not Paul.