Why did the world reject the Messiah when He Did come?

[Desert Snake]

You didn't. Just saying I don't believe God would empower an imposter. If Jesus' miracles were real - and multiple individuals attested to them - that gives credence to his legitimacy.

Something for doubters to consider.

'Jesus' is also a manifestation of the Godhood,
John 17

And literally a manifestation of the 'Lord'.
2 Corinthians 6:18
•

We would hope that a manifestation of the Lord, would be all knowing, and not refer to 'my g-d and your g-d', or such, without explanation.

 

[Spartan]

'Jesus' is also a manifestation of the Godhood,
John 17

And literally a manifestation of the 'Lord'.
2 Corinthians 6:18
•

We would hope that a manifestation of the Lord, would be all knowing, and not refer to 'my g-d and your g-d', or such, without explanation.

Jesus is God. So are the Father and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Desert Snake]

Jesus is God. So are the Father and the Holy Spirit.

That doesn't match what I wrote. If you want to present extremely general, or 'plain', answers to more complex ideas or questions, I'm not interested.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yeah, it says so in Isaiah chapter 53 - which many rabbis have acknowledged as being Messianic.

You are not going to find Rabbis (unless they are "Messianic Jewish rabbis") that say Isaiah 53 is about the messiah. You just aren't. And I have to say that from a purely Language Arts approach, the essay of Isaiah supports the servant being Israel, not some new character suddenly being inserted into the middle of the composition using the same metaphor.

 

[Spartan]

You are not going to find Rabbis (unless they are "Messianic Jewish rabbis") that say Isaiah 53 is about the messiah. You just aren't. And I have to say that from a purely Language Arts approach, the essay of Isaiah supports the servant being Israel, not some new character suddenly being inserted into the middle of the composition using the same metaphor.

Here's a list of non-Messianic Jewish rabbis who said Isaiah 53 is about the Messiah.

What Rabbis Have Said about Isaiah 53 - Hope In Messiah

 

[Spartan]

That doesn't match what I wrote. If you want to present extremely general, or 'plain', answers to more complex ideas or questions, I'm not interested.

It doesn't have to match what you wrote. If your position is that the Trinity is incorrect then IMO you're on the wrong track.

 

[firedragon]

Here's a list of non-Messianic Jewish rabbis who said Isaiah 53 is about the Messiah.

What Rabbis Have Said about Isaiah 53 - Hope In Messiah

No offence, but you keep giving lists you have never studied yourself. Dont go searching quickly for these kinds of lists brother because its below you.

This particular one is very kindergarten. I am not insulting anything or anyone but this is far from scholarship.

Plainly put, this is "wrong". Did you study this before quoting?

 

[metis]

If one carefully reads the last two chapters of Isaiah, what they will rather clearly read are references to the "remnant" who'll return to eretz Israel upon commitment to live within the Law (613 Commandments). IOW, it really is dealing with events and places long before Jesus' birth.

 

[CG Didymus]

Among a million (exaggeration for effect, probably closer to 900 000) or so self-aggrandising words and phrases he used, I don't see why this would seem surprising. It seems rather humble to me, compared to several others.

Why did he take the title "Glory of God"? If he is The Father, then he should have just called himself God.

 

[CG Didymus]

Be David (rule Israel from Jerusalem)
Bring all the Jews in from the four corners of the earth back to the Land of Israel. All of us.
Bring a literal world peace, a cessation of all wars everywhere

None of these things has happened -- thus the messiah has not yet come. All messianic claims thus far have failed.

That's okay. Jesus wasn't the Grand Messiah. He was just a little one along the way. Since Jesus, there has been Muhammad and The Bab. But the Big Messiah, the one that Baha'is say has fulfilled all the prophecies of every religion is Baha'u'llah. Israel is back in its homeland and I'm sure every once in awhile you have a few hours of peace... maybe even a whole day. Oh, and did you know the Baha'i headquarters are in Haifa. There must be prophecies that say the Messiah set up shop in Haifa and not Jerusalem? And if you can't find any, I'm sure the Baha'is will show you some.

 

[lukethethird]

Then it could be you have indeed rejected the event.

Maybe you have not, but from what I see, I think you have.

Regards Tony

What is there to reject?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What is there to reject?

When this becomes one view of this topic, not much I suppose;

Regards Tony

 

[lukethethird]

When this becomes one view of this topic, not much I suppose;

View attachment 32846

Regards Tony

I thought it was all good, nothing to reject, but since all you have is insults I suppose there is plenty to reject.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I thought it was all good, nothing to reject, but since all you have is insults I suppose there is plenty to reject.

Its the good old Aussie humor cobber An early childhood in Aussie humor is not a good thing in adult life Thus I apologize if you do not see the funny side and will take my head out of the sand to better see what others are saying.

We can always take the Micky out of ourselves.

Urban Dictionary: Take the Mickey out of

Regards Tony

 

[Spartan]

No offence, but you keep giving lists you have never studied yourself. Dont go searching quickly for these kinds of lists brother because its below you.

This particular one is very kindergarten. I am not insulting anything or anyone but this is far from scholarship.

Plainly put, this is "wrong". Did you study this before quoting?

Did you? Isaiah 53 is Messianic. Anyone who thinks otherwise hasn't done their homework.

In addition, there's a New Testament confirmation of Isaiah 53 as it relates to Christ. From Acts chapter 8:

"This is the passage of Scripture the eunuch was reading: “He was led like a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb before its shearer is silent, so he did not open his mouth."

And with that very passage of Scripture Philip told him the good news about Jesus."

How do you like them apples?

 

[firedragon]

Did you? Isaiah 53 is Messianic. Anyone who thinks otherwise hasn't done their homework.

In addition, there's a New Testament confirmation of Isaiah 53 as it relates to Christ. From Acts chapter 8:

"This is the passage of Scripture the eunuch was reading: “He was led like a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb before its shearer is silent, so he did not open his mouth."

And with that very passage of Scripture Philip told him the good news about Jesus."

How do you like them apples?

You changed the point of the comment you are replying to. Not valid. Keep going.

But thanks. Cheers.

 

[CG Didymus]

The topic is why did we not see the Messiah.

If the answer is that it did happen, then there may also be guidance as to what the future holds.

I see we have a great future as a human race, but I do see there will be great change to achieve that future.

Regards Tony

It's one thing to say we didn't see the Messiah and another to say we didn't see Baha'u'llah. We are looking at Baha'u'llah and the things he said and the religion he brought. And many of us have several issues with the religion. He is not clearly the Messiah. Jesus was not clearly the Messiah. Same with Muhammad and The Bab. We are investigating and trying to see if what Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith are saying is the truth.

Prophecy helps. What did Baha'u'llah say was going to happen? The world system is going to crumble and the whole world will turn to the Baha'i Faith? What else? 'Cause what religion doesn't predict things are going to get bad before they get better? The whole Book of Revelation spells out what is going to happen. Beasts and dragons, the Battle of Armageddon, then, after all the "Woes" the end comes and Jesus returns? Yes, it uses the name Jesus in their. Plus "The Lamb" and a few other names and titles that refer to Jesus.

Then there are verses that say Jesus will return to the Mount of Olives and to Jerusalem. Baha'u'llah came from Persia. Why didn't Jesus plainly say that he, no that the next messenger, would return in the Spirit of God and come from Persia. No, that the next messenger would not be him, that is Jesus, but would be an Arabian. And then the next two after the Arabian would be Persians.

But no problem for the Baha'is, they interpret all those things in some symbolic fashion to come up with the "Lamb that was slain" is The Bab? The first Woe is Muhammad. The second is The Bab. And the third Woe is Baha'u'llah? Very creative, but hardly believable for all but Baha'is.

How about all those things Baha'u'llah wrote? Profound things. How could he write all that stuff? God must have been dictating it to him. But 90% of the writing is fluff. How many times can a person say... "The most effulgent" "The most wonderous" "The pen of this wronged one"? Sorry, but it gets a little tedious to try and find the point to what he was trying to say. It's much easier to have someone else quote a verse or two and then tell me what Baha'u'llah was trying to say. Unless, it is Shoghi Effendi. The master of sentences that go on and on and on and on. Sure it's got some great things in it. But it also has some questionable things too.

What does the Baha'i future look like? All rosy? No wars? No racism? No poverty? All the world will be one? Really? All the other messages from God didn't want that? What was there message? "Come on now be nice. And please stop fighting and listen to me. Love one another. Oh well, maybe next messenger you'll listen." But some do listen, but it's not enough. Then God let's the message get distorted? That's his fault. And it is still his fault. His message isn't clear enough and not brought with enough authority to put it into action.

People are still fighting and arguing and religions aren't helping all that much. Why, because God isn't getting behind religions and being the enforcer, even the Baha'i Faith. Your religion is too easily ignored. An invisible God and a long dead messenger? And people, fallible people, are in control of his message? And we're supposed to believe and trust in it? Yes, it is going to take a lot of disasters and calamities to get people to take the Baha'is seriously. And then, the big test, will Baha'u'llah's answers really work?

 

[CG Didymus]

When this becomes one view of this topic, not much I suppose;

View attachment 32846

Regards Tony

All religions have their reasons for rejecting all or most of the beliefs of the other religions. One religion might say that they have reincarnated several times and that there are many gods, Another might say that God brought them everlasting laws that they are to obey and that a promised Messiah will come some day to bring peace to the world. Another might say that their prophet is God in the flesh and is part of a Trinity... and that the power of Satan, the devil, has been conquered and sin and death have been defeated. And so on with all the other religions.

Then there is the Baha'i Faith that says that all of you are right... except part of the message from your religion was only temporary. New laws and necessary changes were brought by the next prophet. That parts of the original message has been misinterpreted, distorted, or other things have been added in to the message, thus making it wrong. Things like you who believe in reincarnation and many gods... wrong. You who think your laws are forever, wrong. And you misinterpret the prophecies by taking them too literally and reject your many Messiahs. So again, you're wrong. And you, you make your messenger God? Wrong. You believe in a literal Satan? Wrong.

So to firmly believe in one's religion is to put one's head in the sand? Why say you believe in your religion is it is not firmly? Why not stand up for it when people in other religions tell you that you are wrong? But Baha'is do firmly believe those people are wrong. Yet, believe that those other religions have all come from one God and, originally, were all true?

I'm not buried in the sand. I'm looking around and I see support for the beliefs of most religions. It's kind of like religious truth is relative. It depends on your culture and your religion as to what you believe to be true. So is God relative? Baha'is keep saying things that are symbolic are taken too literal by people in religions. Like the resurrection. Like Satan. Like Creation. Well, is God taken too literal? Is God just a symbolic way of explaining our highest ideals? Is God love, or is Love God?

Baha'is are so concerned over people not recognizing the people they believe are "Messiahs", but they reject the many other religious and spiritual leaders. Even within Judaism, who is a manifestation for the Baha'is? Sometimes Adam and Noah are included. Why? They are part of the Jewish religion. And the story of their lives are rejected, the Creation story and The Flood, yet they were real? And were manifestations? Why? They certainly were not perfect people. They made mistakes. But then so did Abraham and Moses. Two that are always on the Baha'i list of manifestations. As people who brought a new message to mankind from God? It is a continuing Jewish message from God. Showing how the Israelites came to be and how they were God's Chosen people. Did God un-choose them?

But reject the Baha'i Faith? My main problem is with the idea of "progressive" revelation. I don't see the connections, and or progression, from ancient beliefs to modern religions. At least not how Baha'is believe them. I can see how religions that sacrificed to gods for good crops and fertility evolved into believing in one God. But I don't see how the supposed One God was always there and always the one sending prophets with a consistent and progressive message about who he is and what they should do. So, therefore, I doubt and question the Baha'i Faith. And yes, one thing blows it for me. If the Baha'i Faith isn't 100% right and convincing, then how can I believe any of it?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It's one thing to say we didn't see the Messiah and another to say we didn't see Baha'u'llah. We are looking at Baha'u'llah and the things he said and the religion he brought. And many of us have several issues with the religion. He is not clearly the Messiah. Jesus was not clearly the Messiah. Same with Muhammad and The Bab. We are investigating and trying to see if what Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith are saying is the truth.

Good morning CG, hope all is well today and life is happy. I do not do long posts well, never have,

I will address your post is sections, as individual points.

With this comment you are on the right path as it is a personal search based in reason. It is you that has to balance the reason.

What is clarity? What I see clear, others do not. Thus I guess we can only keep putting forward our ideas and let the varied opinions clash, to see if more clarity is found. RF has been a great platform for me to find some clarity that I had not previously considered.

In all of history, when we consider the verses given in all scriptures about a day of peace that would be world embracing, the first question I ask myself, is what other Message has had the potential to acheive those visions?

If we look at what was known about the world at this link Early world maps - Wikipedia then we can see it was only as we approach the 1800's that we can even consider a message can be given to the entire human race.

Thus we can tick some prophecy boxes that mention a world event and it is reasonable to expect that the event foretold of the Messiah is possible from around this time forward.

If we look at the literal translation of the Hebrew word mashiach (messiah) is "anointed" Thus Christ means 'Anointed One'. Muhammad was also Anointed with a Message as was the Bab and Baha'ullah.

Other uses of the word are;

1. 'The promised deliverer of the Jewish nation prophesied in the Hebrew Bible'. This is specific to the end of ages Message. I would ask has any other Message corresponded to the return to Holy Land by the Jews, but for the Message of Baha'u'llah. Ironically exiled by the Muslims to fulfill prophecy?

2. 'A leader regarded as the Savior of a particular country, group, or cause', Which then can be any Anointed Messenger in any part of the world.

Thus you can see the complexity of just one point you have raised and how much reason is part of Faith, we have a lot to digest a lot to consider.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why did he take the title "Glory of God"? If he is The Father, then he should have just called himself God.

Baha'u'llah answered this question for all Messengers;

"..And, regarding His own relationship to God, He testifies:

When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things “verily I am God”; and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!"

This is great humility. A Messenger holds all power over creation, but they let men like you and me walk all over them.

Regards Tony